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  1. #481
    Pit Lord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sockmaster View Post
    Wait, so what's the problem with that? You're not really losing DPS even if you interrupt soul fire. You still have that ember. You move and start spamming fel flame to keep from being mana-capped, which would be a DPS loss. You also gain more embers. Seems like a reasonable situation to me.
    I think you are missing his point. Soul Fire is a 3.x second cast. If you spend 3 seconds casting, then have to move without getting the spell off, you lose a significant amount of dps (you literally spend 3 seconds doing nothing).
    “I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: ‘O Lord, make my enemies ridiculous.’ And God granted it.” -- Voltaire

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  2. #482
    If you find you're having to interrupt your Slowfire casts at the last moment often due to moving, talent into Kil'jaeden's Cunning. Only the portion of the cast that happens after you start moving is doubled. So 3.5 seconds (example number) might turn into 3.8, and you have less than half a second of 30% movement speed reduction. Not to mention the on-use effect of no penalty.

    I'm not saying it's great, just saying it's there.
    I am the one who knocks ... because I need your permission to enter.

  3. #483
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Depends, if you're hitting that SF because you're OOM or Ember capped, then it's a bigger loss than than it would otherwise be. You're being punished twice over, which is exactly the problem with ISF on Live. Say what you want about 'better management' because that same thing is true on live, and simply isn't always possible when dealing with mechanics like Prison Traps etc. That they put so much slush in between those extremes to compensate by removing everything else is just yet another problem with the spec.
    Destruction's DPS is resource-based, not time-based. As in, as long as you spend your resources (mana and embers) and don't cap on them, you aren't losing DPS.

    You didn't lose that ember. You just gained mana to spend on fel flame for movement. Spending 3 seconds doing nothing means nothing as long as you spend your resources.

    Think of it as a rogue's energy bar. You don't lose DPS by hitting that sinister strike a second later, as long as your energy doesn't hit 100.

  4. #484
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Not actually played a Rogue, but the point about being Ember capped still stands. However, it seems pretty apparent that the break down of the rotation and the entire resource system itself is built entirely to accomodate the full, slow Soul Fire casts. They are what for me ruin the spec in Cata, so I can't see any reason for me to want to play this spec in MoP. Just glad Shadowfury is a talent now, so the risk of it is pretty minimal. :S

  5. #485
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Not actually played a Rogue, but the point about being Ember capped still stands. However, it seems pretty apparent that the break down of the rotation and the entire resource system itself is built entirely to accomodate the full, slow Soul Fire casts. They are what for me ruin the spec in Cata, so I can't see any reason for me to want to play this spec in MoP. Just glad Shadowfury is a talent now, so the risk of it is pretty minimal. :S
    Being ember capped is really difficult. If you're finding yourself ember capped, especially at a time where you'd have to move, you're playing horribly wrong and/or trying to make your life difficult. ._.

  6. #486
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sockmaster View Post
    Being ember capped is really difficult. If you're finding yourself ember capped, especially at a time where you'd have to move, you're playing horribly wrong and/or trying to make your life difficult. ._.
    Or saving them for something important...

    Regardless, unless there's a radical rethink to a return to the fast flowing spec that was so popular, I can't see me using it: Subjectively, the slow casts just don't feel right contrasted against Conflagrate/Backdraft; and it does seem rather a step back from 'fixing' the problem to the fluidity of the spec with the T13 set bonus, to reimplimenting it. The DPS loss might not be as significant thanks to the resource system, but the spec to me has no flow and feels very stop start - every SF is a break to ramp back up from. That is of course, again my opinion of it, your milage may vary.

  7. #487
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Or saving them for something important...

    Regardless, unless there's a radical rethink to a return to the fast flowing spec that was so popular, I can't see me using it: Subjectively, the slow casts just don't feel right contrasted against Conflagrate/Backdraft; and it does seem rather a step back from 'fixing' the problem to the fluidity of the spec with the T13 set bonus, to reimplimenting it. The DPS loss might not be as significant thanks to the resource system, but the spec to me has no flow and feels very stop start - every SF is a break to ramp back up from. That is of course, again my opinion of it, your milage may vary.
    Again, if you're saving them, you still have to be mindful of your embers and how to manage them. That's where the "challenge" comes in.

    It's not that the DPS loss isn't as significant. There is no DPS loss as long as you don't cap on your resources, and you can spend them before the fight ends It would even be a DPS gain if you had procs coming off cooldown soon after you stopped moving. The destro playstyle as it is may not be for you, but it doesn't mean that other people don't like it or don't find it fluid. Some people like to charge up and shoot giant, fiery hadouken loads onto their enemies.

  8. #488
    High Overlord Handlebardoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    Regardless, unless there's a radical rethink to a return to the fast flowing spec that was so popular, I can't see me using it: Subjectively, the slow casts just don't feel right contrasted against Conflagrate/Backdraft; and it does seem rather a step back from 'fixing' the problem to the fluidity of the spec with the T13 set bonus, to reimplimenting it. The DPS loss might not be as significant thanks to the resource system, but the spec to me has no flow and feels very stop start - every SF is a break to ramp back up from. That is of course, again my opinion of it, your milage may vary.
    I think we all agree Slowfire is unbearable. I don't think anyone in their right mind enjoys casting for 3-4 seconds, including the developers making the spec. With that being the case, I am 90% sure MoP will not ship with Destruction's current Slowfire. However, we also have the problem that beta's destruction right now could be played with a cast-sequence macro on a patchwork fight. People should be spending their time discussing some solutions to these problems, not arguing about the differing reasons that we all agree Slowfire is bad. Hell, the only reason I threw out that Searing Pain idea earlier on was to get the ball rolling and have people think of some new ideas, not fixate on that one idea and beat it to death; that way maybe someone here will think of some awesome idea that gets posted on the actual beta forums that some of us do not have access to, so we might actually see a MoP Destruction Warlock we enjoy. Remember, we have two problems that need fixing: Change/remove/fix Slowfire, and make the execution of the spec more complex (or in other words, actually fun).

    Discuss.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    There's also been studies that are showing that plants release distress signals in the form of chemicals, such as when they're cut or broken, which other plants can react to.

    That freshly mown lawn smell? That's tens of thousands of blades of grass screaming.

  9. #489
    Quote Originally Posted by Sockmaster View Post
    It's not that the DPS loss isn't as significant. There is no DPS loss as long as you don't cap on your resources, and you can spend them before the fight ends It would even be a DPS gain if you had procs coming off cooldown soon after you stopped moving. The destro playstyle as it is may not be for you, but it doesn't mean that other people don't like it or don't find it fluid. Some people like to charge up and shoot giant, fiery hadouken loads onto their enemies.
    Incorrect. You want to use embers up until they are about to cap, blow cooldowns, and then soul fire all your embers away. If you use emberstorm SF while you don't have the CD's up, that is a DPS loss, assuming that you are able to sit on embers until they are up.

    To be honest, I think there needs to be a penalty besides losing health for storing embers. Ideally, the rotation should be to hardcast Soul Fire when an ember is full, and then continue, instead of trying to save embers. Either embers need to build at a faster rate to discourage capping, or there should be a penalty (again, besides losing health, as that is just bad design).

    My thought was that Soul Fire could provide a backdraft bonus to Incinerate, or increase critical strike chance/haste/ember generation temporarily. This would mean you want to use them as much as possible to build embers quickly.

    The idea is that you are supposed to use your Emberstorms as much as possible, but if needed (Spine) you can sit on your embers for incredible on-demand burst, but at a price - overall DPS loss.

  10. #490
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Handlebardoc View Post
    I think we all agree Slowfire is unbearable. I don't think anyone in their right mind enjoys casting for 3-4 seconds, including the developers making the spec. With that being the case, I am 90% sure MoP will not ship with Destruction's current Slowfire.
    On the contrary, I think the developers are in love with the concept of the Hadouken/Kamehameha thing, otherwise they wouldn't have implemented ISF, seen it fail, the go to all this effort to introduce a resource system with the singular intent of supporting it. It is afterall, pretty literally all there is left of the spec.

  11. #491
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    On the contrary, I think the developers are in love with the concept of the Hadouken/Kamehameha thing, otherwise they wouldn't have implemented ISF, seen it fail, the go to all this effort to introduce a resource system with the singular intent of supporting it. It is afterall, pretty literally all there is left of the spec.
    And so do I! XD

  12. #492
    High Overlord Handlebardoc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    On the contrary, I think the developers are in love with the concept of the Hadouken/Kamehameha thing, otherwise they wouldn't have implemented ISF, seen it fail, the go to all this effort to introduce a resource system with the singular intent of supporting it. It is afterall, pretty literally all there is left of the spec.
    Well then fuck, I hope someday soon a Blizzard developer is bored as hell and comes on these forums and gets to see this thread and all of our verbal tea-baggage of the moronic idea. Maybe the fact that we hate it so much we have given it a nickname to mock it's stupidity will make Blizz change their mind about the whole shitbag of a concept.

    I mean really, I loved everything about Destro in Cata except for ISF. And that's why I immediately went Destro after getting my 4pc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    There's also been studies that are showing that plants release distress signals in the form of chemicals, such as when they're cut or broken, which other plants can react to.

    That freshly mown lawn smell? That's tens of thousands of blades of grass screaming.

  13. #493
    Nah, I can't imagine that happening.

  14. #494
    If we hold more embers, it does more damage to us. How about a revamped Bane of Havok. Embers do x% more damage to us but x% of the total ember damage is applied to havok target. It could give us a reason to hold embers at times.

  15. #495
    Brewmaster smegdawg's Avatar
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    What ever happened to that ability that made our pets hits(crits?) reduce the cast time of soulfire?

  16. #496
    Quote Originally Posted by smegdawg View Post
    What ever happened to that ability that made our pets hits(crits?) reduce the cast time of soulfire?
    Hope it remains out of the radar. Going for GoSac 90% of the time.

  17. #497
    Latest beta build:
    BURNING_EMBERS_TOOLTIP - Burning Embers are generated by casting Incinerate and are consumed by Chaos Bolt to deal damage or Ember Tap to heal you.
    Two changes to note: It no longer specifies that the target has to be Immolated for Incinerate to generate embers (huge PvP buff, even if it's near meaningless for PvE purposes), and then the obvious - Chaos Bolt instead of Soul Fire. Chaos Bolt's tooltip reads as Chaos Bolt, which is near identical to what SF's was for Destro (differences being CB is shadow and costs no mana).

    Also of note: Fel Energy. Not a change, per se, but seems to explain how Energy works for our pets.

    Further edits as I dig: Tier 14 set bonuses are in! Item - Warlock T14 2P Bonus and Item - Warlock T14 4P Bonus. Quite decent.

    Oh my: Pyromania. How nice! It's level 86, so the pet-independent replacement to Destructive Influence, seemingly. Takes care of the long cast time even in PvP and there's no ramp up - Conflag then, bam, near-instant Chaos Bolt. Synergizes well with Conflag having two charges - build two embers, Conflag, CB, Conflag, CB. Made little since to want to use two Conflags near each other before. More thoughts later!

    Destructive Influence was noted in the next post, but figured I would put it here for completion's sake. Having both seems a bit silly/redundant, but seeing as neither could be talents, and neither appear to be glyphs, who knows.

    Glyph of Immolate Nice new glyph choice. Good, since Destro has hardly any at the moment in beta.
    Glyph of Conflagrate Eh. Good glyph, but a shame it's no longer baseline.
    Glyph of Life Tap Not for Destro, of course, but still a very interesting glyph.

    Havoc Changed/buffed. Tooltip clarified. Now lasts 15 seconds instead of a mere 6, but 3 spells instead of 4. Easily an improvement.

    Soul Harvest Is back. A bit weaker and unusable in arenas, but still good for healing post-combat.

    Summon Doomguard Minute duration/10 Minute cooldown, which is a slight change to uptime. Most interesting is the fact that it does more damage at sub-20%. Combined with the cooldown being what it is, that means you'll probably only get it once a fight (for most fights), which means you'll usually be best off waiting until then to use it. That solves the problem of using it at the start only to wipe minutes later. Even if you do wipe after using it, by the time you pull again, have a pull where it gets down to 20%, etc... Not the best way to fix the problem, but it works, I suppose.

    Grimoire of Sacrifice Oooh! Instead of increased health, we get 2% hp5. Nice throwback to the old Demo Sac, and almost certainly a PvE improvement (PvP, beats me).

    Soul Leech Includes Chaos Bolt, and now heals our pet, too.
    Dark Regeneration Slight number tweaks. Yawn.

    Dark Soul: Instability (and the Demo/Afflic version) lost their passive aspect. A bit of a bummer, but oh well.

    Rain of Fire lost its Destro exclusivity and seems to have lost the Immolate bonus, while Hellfire also lost its Demo exclusivity.
    Last edited by Considerit; 2012-04-25 at 12:44 AM.

  18. #498
    Also, new tooltip for Destructive Influence. Maybe we'll finally get to see it in this build?

    edit: Hmm, posted before you found that Pyromania thing, interesting.

    edit 2: New glyphs up on Wowhead News:

    Dark Soul
    Hand of Gul'dan
    Imp Swarm (for Wild Imps)
    and Verdant Spheres

    Of course, the last three aren't really Destro glyphs, and I'm kinda just vomiting them up here... >.>

    edit 3: Looking at the tooltip for Metamorphosis: Immolation Aura, it now affects Rain of Fire instead of Hellfire. Since the Rain of Fire tooltip no longer mentions increased damage from Immolated targets, maybe it's baseline instead of Destro only? This would certainly help out with Affliction's AoE issues, though that's not really a Destro concern (though the potential loss of the Immo damage may be).
    Last edited by Fallensaint; 2012-04-25 at 12:22 AM.

  19. #499
    Deleted
    Burning Embers: Burning Embers are generated by casting Incinerate and are consumed Chaos Bolt to deal damage or Ember Tap to heal you.

  20. #500
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Guessing Chaos Bolt is replacing Soul Fire for Destruction to clean up Soul Fire's use in Demonology.

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