[MoP] Misc Demonology Notes

[darthades]

Jessicka, saw your post on the us beta forums

you keep suggesting that META dlash should not be instant

why? As PvPers have said, instant dlash is the only way the spec can function in this setting, caster form pvp damage is crap because we can only spam felflame vs melee, the only saving grace is generating fury to get meta instants off.

Why dont you suggest something else that doesnt completely ruin the spec for half the player base? i dont like you >_>

[Jessicka]

Jessicka, saw your post on the us beta forums

you keep suggesting that META dlash should not be instant

why? As PvPers have said, instant dlash is the only way the spec can function in this setting, caster form pvp damage is crap because we can only spam felflame vs melee, the only saving grace is generating fury to get meta instants off.

Why dont you suggest something else that doesnt completely ruin the spec for half the player base? i dont like you >_>

I've seen this argument countless times before, with regard to Drain Mana in particular. This often means the spell is either clearly too powerful for that setting because it's so dependable, or that there are different issues with the spec which that ability is masking or - or both.

[darthades]

I've seen this argument countless times before, with regard to Drain Mana in particular. This often means the spell is either clearly too powerful for that setting because it's so dependable, or that there are different issues with the spec which that ability is masking or - or both.

countless times? just name a couple, and manadrain situation is completely different, completely unrelated.

The thing is the warlock PvP problem is: "locks dont have the tools to create casting windows" like mages and hunters do, thats the underlying problem and it WONT BE FIXED, it hasnt been fixed since the class inception.

You want to ruin the most appealing warlock MOP PvP spec just because you "FEEL WEIRD PRESSING INSTANTS WHILE IN META", "come on", is there any other way u wont feel weird?

I know you spit on PvP players and hate them, it is obvious by the way you post, but making enemies wont get your cause far.

[Grubjuice]

part of the problem is that both caster and meta ought to have a castable spam spell for pve and a weaker instant spam spell for PvP and mobile fights but the way our demon form alters our spell changes their role in combat....


it should be:

Corruption (dot1, all targets)
Doom (dot2, one target only)
Fel Flame ~> Demonic Slash (Instant attack for mobile fights, increases DoT duration)
Shadow Bolt ~> Better Shadow Bolt (Cast Spell to fills in any free time)
Soul Fire(+MC) ~> Better Soul Fire (+MC) (Proc nuke and Execute)
Rain of Fire ~> Void Barrage (range of target [not ground placed] channeled AoE)
Hand of Guldan ~> Chaos Wave (instant AoE)

but instead it's:

Corruption ~> Doom (dots 1 & 2, both have to be up but can't be put up at the same time?)
Fel Flame ~> Void Ray (instant single target > instant multi-target, can't target VR? suddenly become AoE?)
Shadow Bolt ~> Demonic Slash (cast time spam> Instant spam, haste locks and is too powerful?)
Soul Fire+MC ~> Soul Fire + MC (Proc nuke when to use it, dilemmas)
Rain of Fire ~> Immolation Aura (channeled AoE > Aura AoE, what are you supposed to cast while ImmA is on?)
Hand of Guldan ~> Chaos Wave (instant AoE)

[darthades]

part of the problem is that both caster and meta ought to have a castable spam spell for pve and a weaker instant spam spell for PvP and mobile fights but the way our demon form alters our spell changes their role in combat....

Meta is a SHORT COOLDOWN (last 25/30s) that must be aligned with demonsoul + trinket to be really effective, shamans can cast while moving too, mages and hunters can do 90% of their damage while running away like idiots.

The problem is you people are USED TO clunky crappy mechanics of the class, Demonology is least played spec in the game, by FAAAR, ALWAYS has been, in both PvP and PvE areas, the only reason you bring one is for the buff.

The haste concern is valid, but that can be easily solved by giving meta, 1.5 sec GCD instead of 1s AND/OR making haste decrease the rate fury drains for example.

Plenty of options, giving meta a cast time is the BEST possible way to cruficy the spec in PvP.

[Brauhm]

countless times? just name a couple, and manadrain situation is completely different, completely unrelated.

The thing is the warlock PvP problem is: "locks dont have the tools to create casting windows" like mages and hunters do, thats the underlying problem and it WONT BE FIXED, it hasnt been fixed since the class inception.

You want to ruin the most appealing warlock MOP PvP spec just because you "FEEL WEIRD PRESSING INSTANTS WHILE IN META", "come on", is there any other way u wont feel weird?

I know you spit on PvP players and hate them, it is obvious by the way you post, but making enemies wont get your cause far.

See this is coming from someone who doesn't really know what they're talking about. You do understand that you have "Void Ray" as well as Demonic Slash as a demonology warlock in pvp, which should be your main nuke, not D-slash. D-slash should be casted so it benefits with haste meaning that when my heroic insignia procs I don't have to drop meta because the "haste is almost worthless" in addition to have a devalued heroism benefit.

[Grubjuice]

Meta is a SHORT COOLDOWN (last 25/30s) that must be aligned with demonsoul + trinket to be really effective, shamans can cast while moving too, mages and hunters can do 90% of their damage while running away like idiots.

Plenty of options, giving meta a cast time is the BEST possible way to cruficy the spec in PvP.

Wouldn't it be better and easier to have one cast time spam and one instant spam that we use in meta. PVP use the instant and PVE use the cast time. like Frost bolt verus Ice Lance.

[Torq]

See this is coming from someone who doesn't really know what they're talking about. You do understand that you have "Void Ray" as well as Demonic Slash as a demonology warlock in pvp, which should be your main nuke, not D-slash. D-slash should be casted so it benefits with haste meaning that when my heroic insignia procs I don't have to drop meta because the "haste is almost worthless" in addition to have a devalued heroism benefit.

I counter this with a simple question: Have you actually tried to use Void Ray while moving?

[Grubjuice]

D-slash should be casted so it benefits with haste meaning that when my heroic insignia procs I don't have to drop meta because the "haste is almost worthless" in addition to have a devalued heroism benefit.

This would be fine from my point of view so long as Void Ray was targeted (as opposed to aimed).

[Brauhm]

I counter this with a simple question: Have you actually tried to use Void Ray while moving?

And that goes back to jessica's main point, there's something wrong with the base mechanics of the spec. Void ray should target, simple as that.

[Grubjuice]

I counter this with a simple question: Have you actually tried to use Void Ray while moving?

VR needs to be fixed. that's all.

[darthades]

Wouldn't it be better and easier to have one cast time spam and one instant spam that we use in meta. PVP use the instant and PVE use the cast time. like Frost bolt verus Ice Lance.

The thing is, demo PvP needs META at full power to be effective, a "felflame like" spell wont cut it. why? because demo caster form is incredibly underpowered in a PvP setting, its damage is weak, it doesnt have the tools to create casting windows, it has the longest cast time filler (shadowbolt) in the entire game (which hits like a wet noodle) and on top of this, it lacks utility

its only saving grace is "it can powerup fury with instant casts" at a decent rate, that fury is going to be useless unless it is used at full potential while in META.

See this is coming from someone who doesn't really know what they're talking about. You do understand that you have "Void Ray" as well as Demonic Slash as a demonology warlock in pvp, which should be your main nuke, not D-slash. D-slash should be casted so it benefits with haste meaning that when my heroic insignia procs I don't have to drop meta because the "haste is almost worthless" in addition to have a devalued heroism benefit.

what? i wont even ...

[Grubjuice]

The thing is, demo PvP needs META at full power to be effective, a "felflame like" spell wont cut it. why? because demo caster form is incredibly underpowered in a PvP setting, its damage is weak, it doesnt have the tools to create casting windows, it has the longest cast time filler (shadowbolt) in the entire game (which hits like a wet noodle) and on top of this, it lacks utility

its only saving grace is "it can powerup fury with instant casts" at a decent rate, that fury is going to be useless unless it is used at full potential while in META.

But doesn't my suggestion still hold?
Wouldn't you want a instant cast ability that you can use in meta?
and wouldn't you want a slightly STRONGER cast time ability for meta as well? (for when, in meta, you have managed to open up that casting window? and for PVE when you can stand and cast at your liesure?)

it would not be a Fel Flame-like ability, it would be a Better-than-fel-flame ability. Say for Example a Fel Flame with splash damage! ....?

[darthades]

But doesn't my suggestion still hold?
Wouldn't you want a instant cast ability that you can use in meta?
and wouldn't you want a slightly STRONGER cast time ability for meta as well? (for when, in meta, you have managed to open up that casting window? and for PVE when you can stand and cast at your liesure?)

it would not be a Fel Flame-like ability, it would be a Better-than-fel-flame ability. Say for Example a Fel Flame with splash damage! ....?

Yea, that could work, something like:

shadowbolt META: 2 sec cast nuke.
felflame META: instant cast with a DPCT equiv to 80% of shadowbolt-META. (20% damage penalty)

I think moltencore soulfire is going to play this role, it only needs a decrease in fury cost to work this way.

[Torq]

And that goes back to jessica's main point, there's something wrong with the base mechanics of the spec. Void ray should target, simple as that.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the spec. If we reach haste values that allow us to become GCD capped, the meta filler will eventually switch to SF, which will always gain a benefit from haste. SF also scales with with int better than DS does (I think), so as we reach higher gear levels, DS will eventually become a utility filler rather than the primary filler (i.e. when moving).

Again, I fail to see the problem with this. Everyone's fixated on complaining about DS's potential GCD cap (with haste), without bothering to take into account any other scale factors; as if as we get gear, the only stat we'll be increasing is haste, or something.

I'm also not sure where Jess got this ridiculous idea that staying in caster would ever be better than going into meta, like during hero or whatever. I mean... what?! Sitting at fury cap is NEVER acceptable, and if you need to burn fury, you'll do it, even at the higher fury cost, and it'll be a dps increase over sitting in caster because you're afraid of GCD capping. Since you'll also be generating fury more quickly (and, since we're talking massive levels of theoretical haste, also generating MC procs much more rapidly), you're going to be fine spending your fury on SF. Straw man is weak.

[Sylvre]

I'm no theorycrafter but don't you need 50% haste to get the GCD down to 1? Seeing as how demo won't be stacking haste anyways, isn't this argument purely hypothetical? Even if it weren't, this would hardly be the first time that a spec gets GCD capped.

[Jessicka]

I don't think there's anything wrong with the spec. If we reach haste values that allow us to become GCD capped, the meta filler will eventually switch to SF, which will always gain a benefit from haste. SF also scales with with int better than DS does (I think), so as we reach higher gear levels, DS will eventually become a utility filler rather than the primary filler (i.e. when moving).

Again, I fail to see the problem with this. Everyone's fixated on complaining about DS's potential GCD cap (with haste), without bothering to take into account any other scale factors; as if as we get gear, the only stat we'll be increasing is haste, or something.

I'm also not sure where Jess got this ridiculous idea that staying in caster would ever be better than going into meta, like during hero or whatever. I mean... what?! Sitting at fury cap is NEVER acceptable, and if you need to burn fury, you'll do it, even at the higher fury cost, and it'll be a dps increase over sitting in caster because you're afraid of GCD capping. Since you'll also be generating fury more quickly (and, since we're talking massive levels of theoretical haste, also generating MC procs much more rapidly), you're going to be fine spending your fury on SF. Straw man is weak.

Speaking of straw men, when did I say it was acceptable to stay Fury capped? It isn't. I am saying that it's flawed design to be using a lower DPFC spell because a temporary haste buff results in it having a higher DPET thanks to the more efficient DPFC spell becoming capped.

---------- Post added 2012-06-19 at 11:55 PM ----------

I'm no theorycrafter but don't you need 50% haste to get the GCD down to 1? Seeing as how demo won't be stacking haste anyways, isn't this argument purely hypothetical? Even if it weren't, this would hardly be the first time that a spec gets GCD capped.

We don't have final numbers for gear available, nor abilities themselves, so it's pretty hard to say whether Haste or Mastery are going to top out for us as the stat to follow. Haste is a pretty good stat for Demo on Live, so it may well be still good in MoP (there are plenty of reasons why it should be), it may even be top, or ideal to a given breakpoint, so it might be that counting temporary haste buffs we'd reach that point relatively quickly.

[Inactivity]

Often giving a cast time to a spell that is meant to be fast is meant to cripple the spell in PvP, nothing more. It does not help against GCD capping unless the cast time is extremely long (greater than 1.5 sec base).

Note that even longer-cast spells will still GCD cap while in bloodlust/etc. Hence cast times serve one (and ONLY one) purpose, preventing movement.

[edit] whoops, there are more purposes: making us vulnerable (as if we aren't enough already) to melee and hence shittier as a class by allowing lockouts, and other forms of interruption.

[Sylvre]

We don't have final numbers for gear available, nor abilities themselves, so it's pretty hard to say whether Haste or Mastery are going to top out for us as the stat to follow. Haste is a pretty good stat for Demo on Live, so it may well be still good in MoP (there are plenty of reasons why it should be), it may even be top, or ideal to a given breakpoint, so it might be that counting temporary haste buffs we'd reach that point relatively quickly.

No but simcraft does have numbers for 85 with final tier gear levels and even there with 3000 haste, it's still worth 0.6 mastery. While a big gap, it's hardly gamebreaking or unheard of. For reference, in 4.3 Demo 1 crit = 0.66 mastery.

So can't we all agree this is making mountains out of molehills?

[Torq]

Speaking of straw men, when did I say it was acceptable to stay Fury capped? It isn't. I am saying that it's flawed design to be using a lower DPFC spell because a temporary haste buff results in it having a higher DPET thanks to the more efficient DPFC spell becoming capped.

However, trinket procs and Heroism certainly are going to factor in - that moment when you drop Meta because your trinket procs is not something I want to see.

Dropping Meta = wasting fury. Fury capping = wasting fury. Close, but I suppose not quite the same thing.

Regardless, wasting fury = wasting fury.

But no, it's not a flawed design. It's called forcing you to make decisions as you play. Either you can make your fury last, or burn it all rapidly for higher burst potential. Meaningful decisions aren't design flaws just because you don't like them.