[MoP] Misc Demonology Notes

[Deleted]

Why would they make Sac "for bossfights were pets are useless" (sic)? That's probably the most misguided assumption possible and I've heard it more than enough times in various places to make me wonder where do you even get an idea like that?

Apart from that, I think it's exactly as Jessicka said - you get a fire-and-forget option and a controllable option. The latter is better simply because it is controllable, but of course the former is easier to use, and tbh, the talents are close enough for you to play with whatever the hell you want, so if you want to take Supremacy just because you like the look of the new demons, you can do it and perform perfectly fine with it. UNLESS you're a min-maxer, but then you will pick the theoretically "best" talent anyway, even if it's "best" by 50 dps. However, in that case you just have to accept that *something* has to be 50 dps ahead, and if that something happens to not be your favorite talent... well, tough luck. That's the joy of min-maxing.

[Magpai]

Why would they make Sac "for bossfights were pets are useless" (sic)? That's probably the most misguided assumption possible and I've heard it more than enough times in various places to make me wonder where do you even get an idea like that?

Apart from that, I think it's exactly as Jessicka said - you get a fire-and-forget option and a controllable option. The latter is better simply because it is controllable, but of course the former is easier to use, and tbh, the talents are close enough for you to play with whatever the hell you want, so if you want to take Supremacy just because you like the look of the new demons, you can do it and perform perfectly fine with it. UNLESS you're a min-maxer, but then you will pick the theoretically "best" talent anyway, even if it's "best" by 50 dps. However, in that case you just have to accept that *something* has to be 50 dps ahead, and if that something happens to not be your favorite talent... well, tough luck. That's the joy of min-maxing.

I'm not sure what joy there is in taking a required talent rather than having a choice, but the issue is that the supremacy pet wrathguard isn't doing as much damage relative to the felguard as the tooltip for the talent says. It's clearly a bug somewhere, not some sort of philosophical disconnect.

And as for Sacrifice, they get the idea because the talents works as a great solution to those sorts of fight. It's pretty obvious how people came to that conclusion and I don't think it's nearly as misguided as you make it out to be.

[Deleted]

There's nothing new and shiny about those supremacy pets, they're just old tbc models scaled down

And? have I said anything about new models? - NO! But we are playing with the same odd models for years, so it was time to have something new.

Why would they make Sac "for bossfights were pets are useless" (sic)? That's probably the most misguided assumption possible and I've heard it more than enough times in various places to make me wonder where do you even get an idea like that?

maybe because this tier gives a DPS bonus? so it will never be balanced around the same damage output - there will always be a higher DPS talent. Thats means that all of these spells are for boss utility. and guess what, playing without a pet is the best choice for bossfights where pets suck

the talents are close enough for you to play with whatever the hell you want, so if you want to take Supremacy just because you like the look of the new demons, you can do it and perform perfectly fine with it

Oh guy, common. don´t even try it that way. If you are raiding in a progress guild you´ll never take the skill you like the most - you´ll take the one which has the highest damage output or best utility. I´d like to use all of them, and not only two

[Magpai]

Lemme ask a question about soul fire: When it hits a target at low health, the tooltip says it trigger molten core. Molten core is like decimation on live except it only lets you fire off one rather than as many as you can squeeze into X seconds, right?

So does this mean your rotation will go like this:

1. Enemy gets low, so you hard cast it (or get a molten core proc from something else).
2. Cast shadow bolt (or whatever you would normally cast) during soul fire's travel time.
3. Soul fire hits, giving you molten core.
4. Cast soul fire.
5. Cast shadow bolt during soul fire's travel time.
6. Soul fire hits, giving you molten core.
7. Repeat 4-6 indefinitely.

As in are we gonna have to weave soul fire and our normal filler back and forth?

[Micke]

Lemme ask a question about soul fire: When it hits a target at low health, the tooltip says it trigger molten core. Molten core is like decimation on live except it only lets you fire off one rather than as many as you can squeeze into X seconds, right?

So does this mean your rotation will go like this:

1. Enemy gets low, so you hard cast it (or get a molten core proc from something else).
2. Cast shadow bolt (or whatever you would normally cast) during soul fire's travel time.
3. Soul fire hits, giving you molten core.
4. Cast soul fire.
5. Cast shadow bolt during soul fire's travel time.
6. Soul fire hits, giving you molten core.
7. Repeat 4-6 indefinitely.

As in are we gonna have to weave soul fire and our normal filler back and forth?

No because you get additional molten core procs from other sources. You might have to weave for a short time until that happens though if you enter execute mode with 0 stacks.

[Magpai]

No because you get additional molten core procs from other sources. You might have to weave for a short time until that happens though if you enter execute mode with 0 stacks.

How many charges can you get? The wowhead tooltip doesn't say.

[Deleted]

Why would they make Sac "for bossfights were pets are useless" (sic)? That's probably the most misguided assumption possible and I've heard it more than enough times in various places to make me wonder where do you even get an idea like that?

Alysrazor, Nefarion, Conclave of winds... fights like these can be annoying for pet class since they can get out of range and disappear, or not getting the buff as the player. So not having pet is really better in these fights. I'm glad they're making each pet has a very close dps to each other since in some situation like Atramedes that the boss can fly up and melee pet can't atk him, we can use pet like Imp to maintain dps from pet, or even go GoSac. Same to Magmaw or even Heroic Madness if you don't want to micro you pet position since it dies easily.

I tested Wrathguard today and I'm pretty sure his abilities hit harder than FG, but his melee atk looks a bit weak if you look at the number because he's dual wielding so you can see his melee damage splits into 2 hits like 9.5k+3.5k while FG hit for 11k.

[Deleted]

I tested Wrathguard today and I'm pretty sure his abilities hit harder than FG, but his melee atk looks a bit weak if you look at the number because he's dual wielding so you can see his melee damage splits into 2 hits like 9.5k+3.5k while FG hit for 11k.

skada already works on Beta & PTR, try it that way Maybe it hits harder, but its DPS is lower. Wrathguard is about 5-10% weaker than felguard, but it should be 20% stronger

[Micke]

How many charges can you get? The wowhead tooltip doesn't say.

Certainly more than you'd ever have a use for so dont worry.

[Jessicka]

All talents on a tier are supposed to provide similar DPS increases. That's true for all dps specs. Also I just double checked and Supremacy states outright that your demons do 20% more damage. It's absolutely supposed to be a straight dps gain (over picking no talent at all anyway).

It's not a gain relative to the other two talents - that's the point I was making.

[Deleted]

skada already works on Beta & PTR, try it that way Maybe it hits harder, but its DPS is lower. Wrathguard is about 5-10% weaker than felguard, but it should be 20% stronger

I used recount for almost a month and there's no problem with it. I didn't test the "dps" but I tested the damage to see how well dual wielding pet like Wrathguard/Shivarra are doing and as I've said Wrathguard hits harder than Felguard. So there might be something wrong with the amount of the skill usage or their energy usage. I really don't know but Wrathguard hits harder that's all I can say. :-)

[Hellfury]

And what the hell is grimoire of supremacy good for now? when i think of those three grimoires, then supremacy should be the "normal" choice, service would be for burst and sacrifice for bossfights were pets are useless (alysrazar, beth'tilac, ...). Well, now we still got the choice between service & sacrifice, but supremacy isn´t good for any situation at the moment...shiny new wrathguard and we´re not going to use it. hopefully they´ll fix it until release...

Supremacy is better for example 5mans and regular questing and dailies

[Deleted]

and guess what, playing without a pet is the best choice for bossfights where pets suck

What I mean is, I find it unrealistic to think that Blizz would design a talent solely for these kind of fights, if not for general game design reasons, then at least because the other pet specs get nothing like this. Sure enough, Sacrifice will be used on those fights anyway, but "what it's useful for" =/= "what it was designed for".

[Deleted]

What I mean is, I find it unrealistic to think that Blizz would design a talent solely for these kind of fights, if not for general game design reasons, then at least because the other pet specs get nothing like this. Sure enough, Sacrifice will be used on those fights anyway, but "what it's useful for" =/= "what it was designed for".

I know that it is maybe not designed for that kind of things, but thats the only way to make all three grimoires viable (for RAIDING @Hellfury ). I like the idea of using all three grimoires depending on the bossfight, but it will only be that way if supremacy is stronger than the other two on patchwerk fights

[Deleted]

I know that it is maybe not designed for that kind of things, but thats the only way to make all three grimoires viable

Not necessarily - think about multi-target fights, or even fights with lots of switching. In a multi-target scenario, your pet can only bite/slash/throw fireballs at one target. On fights with lots of switching, your pet has to run between targets to attack (obv. more of a problem with melee pets, but still), or you can park it on one target and do less damage on secondary targets. Having *all* of your dps baked into your own spells, rather than shared between you and your pet is beneficial in many cases, not just on encounters where the pet just bugs out and you can't have it at all.

[Kirroth]

Not necessarily - think about multi-target fights, or even fights with lots of switching. In a multi-target scenario, your pet can only bite/slash/throw fireballs at one target.

Isn't that exactly why the current version of Grim of Sacrifice only boosts the damage of certain spells and not all of them? If I have it right the Demo list is "Damage dealt by Shadow Bolt, Soul Fire, Hand of Gul'dan, Metamorphosis Melee, Wild Imps and Fel Flame increased by 30%." HoG is the only spell with any AoE component, and none of the specs have a DoT on their list. So you're trading zero pet travel time for lost pet utility abilities, and (in theory) very little actual DPS difference.

[Deleted]

Not necessarily - think about multi-target fights, or even fights with lots of switching. In a multi-target scenario, your pet can only bite/slash/throw fireballs at one target. On fights with lots of switching, your pet has to run between targets to attack (obv. more of a problem with melee pets, but still), or you can park it on one target and do less damage on secondary targets. Having *all* of your dps baked into your own spells, rather than shared between you and your pet is beneficial in many cases, not just on encounters where the pet just bugs out and you can't have it at all.

You are misunderstanding me. Service and sacrifice are the two viable speccs, but supremacy is the problem. It has no strength compared to the others. While service gives burst and sacrifice gives utility in fights we already mentioned, supremacy has nothing. Thats why supremacy needs to be stronger than the others in patchwerk fights, so it would be the "normal" choice, if you dont need burst or "no-pet-utility".

[Deleted]

Supremacy might be the one for high movement fights.

[Xelnath]

Supremacy gives you a 50% mortal strike as Demonology, an AoE friendly dispel and the ability to CC any creature type.

[PickleballAce]

Supremacy gives you a 50% mortal strike as Demonology, an AoE friendly dispel and the ability to CC any creature type.

You forgot Invader Zim voiceovers too.