Lack of Initiator Threat for Protection Paladins in MoP

[Seani]

I noticed through the selection of talents and Inscriptions that, comparably, Protection Paladins are lacking in initiator threat in the upcoming expansion. Keep in mind that Warriors and DKs have Inscriptions that increase their damage by 50% when x is active; and Druids have a talent that increases initial threat. The only talent that a Paladin has that is useful for burst threat is Sanctified Wrath. While great for burst threat, unfortunately has a 3 min cool down and prohibits us from taking Holy Avenger which is much better for mitigation. In Cata Protection Paladins use Divine Plea and Avenging Wrath for burst threat, each having a 2 min cool down. Sanctified Wrath appears to be a downgrade from this current threat mechanic, less threat and I have to build up to burst threat. I would urge developers to look into this, and I would like the community to add ideas as to how we can improve burst threat for the Protection Paladin.

[Gallahadd]

Hmm... you bring up a good point... Maybe once GAnK is put back in, we'll get a glyph for 50% bonus threat when Gank is up, or maybe DP. This does seem like something which needs to be brought up.

[Seani]

Sanctified Wrath will be a necessity for prot paladins with the current model. Btw the Druid abilities are Bear hug and Berserk, Im assuming for burst threat they would use bear hug and then a berserk to initiate. I suppose Prot Paladins could also initiate with Execution Sentence, but same issue you would be building up to burst threat. Currently Divine Plea is Holy only. Perhaps if they made execution sentence be high damage and then an increase in holy damage to target, instead of leading up to burst damage to target while increasing holy damage. Also speccing into execution Sentence for threat sort of eliminates our utility.

[Manstallion]

Avenger's Shield is pretty much the only initiating threat I've ever needed. Unless they are seriously nerfing the threat done my abilities I don't see it being an issue.

[Seani]

Avenger's Shield is pretty much the only initiating threat I've ever needed. Unless they are seriously nerfing the threat done my abilities I don't see it being an issue.

Raiding Tanks need burst threat at the beginning of the fight before they have the vengeance stacks to stay on par with dps. Without it you run into problems keeping and holding aggro.

[UnderworldSoup]

Holy Avenger is a fine initiator cooldown. You're referencing Divine Plea as if it's required, but Holy Avenger is essentially the same for initial generation and it provides you more over time for the same cooldown duration. Pop it, use Judgment on the target, bam.

To me, Sanctified Wrath isn't anything special nor is it "a necessity for prot paladins". Unless I'm missing something, it won't take Judgment off of the GCD - so you'll be wasting GCDs to and completely changing your rotation just to accommodate for it's increased Holy Power generation. This is provided there isn't more bound to Judgment than simply Holy Power generation and the T13 set bonuses.

[Seani]

Holy Avenger is a fine initiator cooldown. You're referencing Divine Plea as if it's required, but Holy Avenger is essentially the same for initial generation and it provides you more over time for the same cooldown duration. Pop it, use Judgment on the target, bam.

To me, Sanctified Wrath isn't anything special nor is it "a necessity for prot paladins". Unless I'm missing something, it won't take Judgment off of the GCD - so you'll be wasting GCDs to and completely changing your rotation just to accommodate for it's increased Holy Power generation. This is provided there isn't more bound to Judgment than simply Holy Power generation and the T13 set bonuses.

Your going to pop GOTAK at the beginning of the battle? Id rather use avenging wrath, not my greatest mitigation cd.

[UnderworldSoup]

Your going to pop GOTAK at the beginning of the battle? Id rather use avenging wrath, not my greatest mitigation cd.

Holy Avenger isn't bound to Guardian of Ancient Kings anymore. It is now a standalone cooldown akin to the current Zealotry on live.

I agree with you -- I wouldn't be using it if it were, but it's not.

[4KhazModan]

Holy Avenger is a fine initiator cooldown. You're referencing Divine Plea as if it's required, but Holy Avenger is essentially the same for initial generation and it provides you more over time for the same cooldown duration. Pop it, use Judgment on the target, bam.

To me, Sanctified Wrath isn't anything special nor is it "a necessity for prot paladins". Unless I'm missing something, it won't take Judgment off of the GCD - so you'll be wasting GCDs to and completely changing your rotation just to accommodate for it's increased Holy Power generation. This is provided there isn't more bound to Judgment than simply Holy Power generation and the T13 set bonuses.

I'm not going to waste my GoAK on a threat opener. Wings + Avengers Shield should be good enough without having to sacrifice our best mitigation CD. Wings + Exo + AS is what I'm going to do.

[minteK917]

I'm not going to waste my GoAK on a threat opener. Wings + Avengers Shield should be good enough without having to sacrifice our best mitigation CD. Wings + Exo + AS is what I'm going to do.

Holy avenger is no longer tied with GOAK, Instead its just a zealotry remake for everyone. How many time do we need to say this damn. Its like every new thread talking about talents, people keep saying they dont want to waste goak. Keep up with the changes on beta/wowhead, or dont comment on them.

[4KhazModan]

Holy avenger is no longer tied with GOAK, Instead its just a zealotry remake for everyone. How many time do we need to say this damn. Its like every new threat talking about talents, people keep saying they dont want to waste goak. Keep up with the changes on beta/wowhead, or dont comment on them.

Sorry if I go off the actual talent calculator. Sheesh, you don't really have to get so aggressive about it.

Might consider taking it now. Depends on if I can keep up wit threat by simply using the opener i mentioned.

[minteK917]

Sorry if I go off the actual talent calculator. Sheesh, you don't really have to get so aggressive about it.

You cant even read the guy above you and we are supposed to relax? Just getting tired of this thing, if you read these board i think this situation comes back at least 50 times. Just getting tired i guess.

[UnderworldSoup]

I'm not going to waste my GoAK on a threat opener. Wings + Avengers Shield should be good enough without having to sacrifice our best mitigation CD. Wings + Exo + AS is what I'm going to do.

As a further clarification on the state of Protection in the beta, we no longer have access to Exorcism. The talent calculator is somewhat accurate, but I've noticed countless changes since then for most if not all of the classes.

It's understandable that the talent calculator is still a point of reference -- especially in the case of Holy Avenger since most of us were raising our eyebrows at it being linked to GoAK -- but there have been some revisions which, in this case, are for the better.

[4KhazModan]

As a further clarification on the state of Protection in the beta, we no longer have access to Exorcism. The talent calculator is somewhat accurate, but I've noticed countless changes since then for most if not all of the classes.

It's understandable that the talent calculator is still a point of reference -- especially in the case of Holy Avenger since most of us were raising our eyebrows at it being linked to GoAK -- but there have been some revisions which, in this case, are for the better.

So Holy Avenger it is. Pity, I like Divine Purpose, feels good when it procs as ret.
Also, Offtopic: but how does block scale on beta? Better than parry/dodge? Or about the same?

[minteK917]

So Holy Avenger it is. Pity, I like Divine Purpose, feels good when it procs as ret.
Also, Offtopic: but how does block scale on beta? Better than parry/dodge? Or about the same?

Still our best stat until cap, because of its interaction with Shield of the righteousness. I knew generaly some people dont like that our mastery cap. But in honestly love what they done with it, i guess its my tbc cord. Block capping is cool and should be something we always work toward.

[UnderworldSoup]

Also, Offtopic: but how does block scale on beta? Better than parry/dodge? Or about the same?

It scales at a slightly lower pace but I believe that was to compensate for mastery raid buffs like Blessing of Might. There is no information on it's scaling via the tooltip and I'm not exactly sure when it begins to diminish since it doesn't seem to be at a very sharp decline.

With my Paladin on live now, I have 60% blockrate in the beta. Combine it with Blessing of Might, I'm at 69% block. Dodge rating does not seem to have any scaling changes based on level applied so I'm down to about 8% from 18% on live, while Parry remained the same.

[Seani]

Holy Avenger isn't bound to Guardian of Ancient Kings anymore. It is now a standalone cooldown akin to the current Zealotry on live.

I agree with you -- I wouldn't be using it if it were, but it's not.

I didnt notice that they had changed Holy Avenger. Yes if used properly this would be a great initiator.

[Judge40]

Still our best stat until cap, because of its interaction with Shield of the righteousness. I knew generaly some people dont like that our mastery cap. But in honestly love what they done with it, i guess its my tbc cord. Block capping is cool and should be something we always work toward.

You might want to have a look at the MoP changes for how block is going to work...

[crazymack]

Avenger's Shield is pretty much the only initiating threat I've ever needed. Unless they are seriously nerfing the threat done my abilities I don't see it being an issue.

Raiding Tanks need burst threat at the beginning of the fight before they have the vengeance stacks to stay on par with dps. Without it you run into problems keeping and holding aggro.

I don't know many raid fights where a new boss comes in within a 2 min gap and your off tank can't handle it.

[Manstallion]

Raiding Tanks need burst threat at the beginning of the fight before they have the vengeance stacks to stay on par with dps. Without it you run into problems keeping and holding aggro.

I main tanked the duration of Wrath and never had this issue at all. Just pop wings and Avenger's Shield on the pull and no one is pulling off me. The few times I tanked in Cata it worked the same way. A cooldown for extra threat really is not necessary unless it's during a threat dump in the fight or if you are trying to pick up adds.