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  1. #761
    Quote Originally Posted by MattiasV View Post
    So on relics. People on the healing side of the swtor forums did math on the relics available to them. This is how they stand currently:

    (pps = power per second)
    Dread guard relic is134.5 pps
    Arkanian relic is 127.75 pps
    Underword relic is 138.25 pps
    Underworld Relic of Serendipious Assault is 197pps

    This is assuming you get them off on cooldown, something that's not all that likely with SA for a merc, but it should proc each time an unload is fired if it's not on cd, so there's that. So that would put it ahead of BA from a pure numbers point of view, but it's very unreliable in nature. Getting one Cerulean Nova, one BA relic and one SA to swap for BA versus bosses with no real burn phase seems to be the best bet (though not many bosses without burn phases these days).
    Yeah it's definitely not likely for it to pop on cd at least not with any regularity...30% chance to proc every hit so on average it'll take roughly 3-4 hits to proc, and you don't have unload or rapid shots hitting "every" time it comes off cd. I feel SA will be dps loss for mercs just as it was for my mara guildie that tested it on the PTS.

    I think it's a lazy man's version of the BA not intended to be better, just my opinion until one of us actually puts it to the test....The Underworld Relic of Cerulean Nova I picked up the other day is nice though

    Edit: In hind sight I wish I had traded it in a few times testing the BA and SA but it bound before I remembered...Doh!
    Last edited by odawgg; 2013-04-19 at 11:58 PM.

  2. #762
    Well, maybe you'll get another relic drop soon

    I think maybe the SA is mainly designed for healers, since there aren't much in the way of options there. The Ephemeral Mending relics are useless, and BA is ok in fight with heavy burst damage phases (not that many) but otherwise EWH relics have been vastly superior. This one is pretty good for healers, especially operatives that have plenty of HOTs up.

    But if the SA relic is good on dps classes it'd be lethality snipers (two ticking dots, multiple hits in cull and series of shots) or mercs. I'd like to test myself, but am primarily gearing my operative at the moment, so it'll have to wait.

  3. #763
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattiasV View Post
    So on relics. People on the healing side of the swtor forums did math on the relics available to them. This is how they stand currently:

    (pps = power per second)
    Dread guard relic is134.5 pps
    Arkanian relic is 127.75 pps
    Underword relic is 138.25 pps
    Underworld Relic of Serendipious Assault is 197pps

    This is assuming you get them off on cooldown, something that's not all that likely with SA for a merc, but it should proc each time an unload is fired if it's not on cd, so there's that. So that would put it ahead of BA from a pure numbers point of view, but it's very unreliable in nature. Getting one Cerulean Nova, one BA relic and one SA to swap for BA versus bosses with no real burn phase seems to be the best bet (though not many bosses without burn phases these days).
    Like I said earlier... You may want to test this a lot with your merc.. but the proc on the relic is soooo short we barely have enough time to get 3 abilities off with the higher power rating and thats IF it procs on cooldown which it almost never does. Mainly because a lot of our time is spent casting tracers... an ability that hits 1 target every 1.4 seconds..

    This relic benefits classes like a sorc healer or an op healer the most because when they use abilities like revivication or put out a lot of hots on the raid they have multiple targets hitting at the same time yielding a much higher chance to proc. When it comes to a class like an arsenal merc... we are on 1 target at time unless we're aoe'ing a group.

    I had a lot of trouble keeping this relic procced on cooldown and when it procced i had a difficult time getting as many abilities off as i could. I honestly think the SA relics are a waste of our time personally.. boundless ages and a proc relic will always trump a relic with a power proc and such a short duration..

    If the duration of the proc lasted longer than 6 seconds it might be more worth it. But honestly i think it sucks for us. I didnt have a chance to do any actual numerical testing.. I just saw my dps drop on 3 consecutive bosses in TFB and said no thanks...

  4. #764
    Scarab Lord Forsedar's Avatar
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    Its a nice change of pace for a relic... if only it were a 10sec proc instead.

  5. #765
    I did write in my second post that I think it's mainly designed for healers.

    But I posted the list in the first place because the difference is so high between it and BA (60pps at optimal proc rate) that it's still worth investigating further I think. Even with the unreliability of the proc, it's entirely possible it'll land on something like 170 pps, whic would still put it ahead of BA on fights where total damage output is all that matters (ie no burn phases).

    I will test it myself eventually, but like I said, I'm far off getting my hands on one myself.

    Edit: We also really should get off 4 hits. With our specced alacrity our GCD is shorter than 1.5seconds, so 6 seconds would see us cast 4 TMs, with slight room for delay due to lag or similar. In comparison, a BA relic would let us get off 20 GCDs and change during a 2 minute power. With optimal proc rate and little to no delays, the SA relic would let us get off 24 GCDs worth over the same time period, with higher power.

    Doing a little math says that even if it procced every 25 seconds (three full casts after it could, and the actual numbers should be lower than this) it'd still be 164 pps, which would still keep it ahead of the BA relic. Here we would get off something like 18-20 GCDs, again with higher power (and with enough higher power to make up the difference if it's in the lower interval).

    But that's just my napkin math. I'm not an expert theorycrafter or mathematician, I just think the numbers on the SA relic are to high to ignore out of hand.
    Last edited by MattiasV; 2013-04-20 at 03:02 AM.

  6. #766
    Scarab Lord Forsedar's Avatar
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    Currently for HM SV, I haven't noticed any 'true' burn phases. Yes the final boss offers spots where burning is necessary... but I find that we end up not really saving CDs for it because he goes down in plenty of time.

    Maybe NiM TFB will change that, but currently it seems like overrall damage will be what matters.

  7. #767
    My experiences are only in SM, but doesn't Titan have a kind of a burn phase? It's laughable in SM, so maybe it isn't so bad in HM either. And the second coming of the dragon on the last boss would also qualify in my book. But yeah, maybe not so much as in TFB.

  8. #768
    It's really an overall dps race even on the last boss, not so much burn...if the tanks are taunting the dragon back and forth it limits raid-wide damage significantly meaning you're just racing against the enrage clock in the fight as a whole, not just in last phase

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 08:17 PM ----------

    just a lil tidbit of info on Electro Net I found out from a guy on my SWTOR thread. If you study your logs you'll notice movement has no effect on NPCs. There's 10 ticks, 5 of which increase at a rate of 20% per tick, the last 5 are sustained....doesn't matter if they moving or not. Good to know it can be spammed on cd as long as the target isn't dying or disappearing for the next 10s.
    Last edited by odawgg; 2013-04-20 at 03:22 AM.

  9. #769
    Scarab Lord Forsedar's Avatar
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    I've been using Net on CD anyways since it has always been a DPS increase for me. That is good to know for clarification though.

    Also we haven't had any trouble for enrage timers just yet. I'm sure NiM will be a different story.

  10. #770
    Quote Originally Posted by MattiasV View Post
    I did write in my second post that I think it's mainly designed for healers.

    But I posted the list in the first place because the difference is so high between it and BA (60pps at optimal proc rate) that it's still worth investigating further I think. Even with the unreliability of the proc, it's entirely possible it'll land on something like 170 pps, whic would still put it ahead of BA on fights where total damage output is all that matters (ie no burn phases).

    I will test it myself eventually, but like I said, I'm far off getting my hands on one myself.

    Edit: We also really should get off 4 hits. With our specced alacrity our GCD is shorter than 1.5seconds, so 6 seconds would see us cast 4 TMs, with slight room for delay due to lag or similar. In comparison, a BA relic would let us get off 20 GCDs and change during a 2 minute power. With optimal proc rate and little to no delays, the SA relic would let us get off 24 GCDs worth over the same time period, with higher power.

    Doing a little math says that even if it procced every 25 seconds (three full casts after it could, and the actual numbers should be lower than this) it'd still be 164 pps, which would still keep it ahead of the BA relic. Here we would get off something like 18-20 GCDs, again with higher power (and with enough higher power to make up the difference if it's in the lower interval).

    But that's just my napkin math. I'm not an expert theorycrafter or mathematician, I just think the numbers on the SA relic are to high to ignore out of hand.
    The nice thing about the BA relic though is it's 30s which means you're nearly guarenteed to get off 2 rail shots and 2 HSMs. These abilities have the highest coefficient (multiplier) in our "arsenal" therefore are the most directly affected by power. With the SA relic you're hoping and praying these two abilities are being used during procs. This could go the other way though with lucky RNG....but I think with the 6s window it's a stretch, time/testing will tell

    Edit: I should add with the 30% surge talented boost to Unload, this becomes an important ability as well, but I would think half the time, Unload is what is proc'ing it and when it is the ability that's proc'ing it, it likely won't be the ability that is affected by the proc.

    I do enjoy theorizing but I'm kicking myself for not testing it when I got the chance...relics will have to go around the horn to the other raid members before I get another one...BUT The arkanian one isn't too hard to come by, maybe I'll spend some comms on it this week and test it. Is it available from the comm vendor?
    Last edited by odawgg; 2013-04-20 at 03:38 AM.

  11. #771
    I think that with 5x6 second windows you're fairly likely to get off 2 HSM and railshot as well (if you're hitting HSM on cooldown you should on average). But would be less reliable.

    I think just treating it like a static relic is the way to, if you try and delay abilities for a proc or anything like that, your overall dps will definitely lower. But if you embrace the randomness a little it might be good.

    But another benefit of BA is that you can line it up with Bloodthirst, which does make a difference.

  12. #772
    Dammit, the Arkanian SA not available at vendor...oh well, gonna be a while before i can test it.

  13. #773
    Yeah, it drops in Torrorborros's courtyard, but was removed from the arkanian vendor, which is why I can't test it myself either.

    There's a version on the pvp vendor, but I don't pvp on my merc, so can't get that one either.

  14. #774
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    This is something that has been bothering me. Lately, I've been browsing around different kill videos from guilds and I'm noticing a VERY common playstyle- adding short wait periods in between casts. Under NO circumstances should you purposely wait to use an ability. By that I mean standing still doing nothing for a very small period of time. It honestly looks like you are scanning your CDs to see which one is up before deciding to use TM again.

    Another thing I have noticed is cast cancelling for Unload. Sure, its not a bad method if you are great at it- but I am noticing people 'inching forward' a little to stop their cast and then using Unload. Essentially, people are adding in an extra .5sec in between casts for no reason at all.

    The ABC's of casting are: Always Be Casting. Downtime means no DPS. Not casting means no DPS. If you're unsure of what to use next- use Tracer Missile until you figure it out. Waiting that half second will hurt your DPS.

  15. #775
    mmhmm...I share that frustration with you. best way to know if someone doesn't have high APMs is if they "never have to use" rapid shots...if you're never or rarely using rapid shots (like 5-8/min average depending on your set bonus) then you have too much delay between actions.

  16. #776
    Quote Originally Posted by Forsedar View Post
    The ABC's of casting are: Always Be Casting. Downtime means no DPS. Not casting means no DPS. If you're unsure of what to use next- use Tracer Missile until you figure it out. Waiting that half second will hurt your DPS.
    I have to pick up that line and comment that, just because thats the most discussible rule my Simulation does use. There is no waittime! That means, HSM will come from CD in 0.01 sec, to bad - the sim will cast something else. I'm aware of that and want to try out some methods to include a wait parameter...

    ABC isn't much use when you have alacrity - and we all have alacrity. Want to know why? Used my sim to get some numbercrushing (sorry, only intern useage for know, you will get a version later :P ) and I got once again a bad feeling about alacrity. To show how bad alacrity is with the ABC rule: arsenal skilled with those 2% alacrity in the Pyro-Tree net me 3063 dps in my Underworld BIS Setup. Just eleminate those 2 points (meaning I could spent 2 points in my tech tree an decided not to) pushed the DPS up to 3190. All because the rotation got smoothed out with those 0.1 delaytimes. Alacrity didn't longer pushed the time between two hsm too low...

    Moral of that is, that human player can just take those points and can wait about 1-2 times per HSM circle if a TM had procced Barrage or not before casting the next ability. Otherwise, perfectly played and ABC there would be a timegap of about 0.2-0.3 secs till the next HSM. And that specific point would be a dmg lost if someone wouldn't wait for the HSM. HSM is just hitting that hard, that our complete rotation seems to put themself around!

    Next point I checked and simmed was the relevance of the setboni. It doesn't matter much which u use. The sim is a perfect player with strict rules and instant decisions - something a human never could achieve. Its irrelevant if you use old 4 pc and sacrifice thos aim stats or if you use the new set. BUT the rotation and gearing with the old set will be much quicker. You just need mods and enhancement that you can build into anything to reach BIS. If you wanna use the new Set you will need nearly the same pieces + the token to buy the new set (in sum -> more gear).. Remember I used Underworld BIS - lower gear means lower impact of the new 4pc - means lower gain out of the more aim - means early gear stages should stick to the old set.




    Both points are not written in stone from a holy mount. But I don't think that there are that many flaws left in my sim to change the outcome...

    TL:DR;
    1) perfect play provided - alacrity is more than worst - it will even lower your dps when you follow ABC (always be casting) A perfect player with low latency use pauses to check if Barrage procced about 1-2 times per hsm circle
    2) it seem to don't matter which set boni you use (old or new one)!
    3) sim will be ready soon™ (I fixed some technical flaws that will make the numbers more believable)



    * BIS has full power / surge setup; I tried few crit levels but everyone was lower than a full power setup.
    * BIS Setup with Aim augments came 15-20 dps ahead of power augments. (use whichever are cheaper...)
    * AskMrRobot will push out a 2.0 update for their Character Builder (tease: http://www.seriousguild.com/forums/t...mory-profiles/)
    Last edited by Keren; 2013-04-22 at 09:38 AM. Reason: forgot some results

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  17. #777
    Hey all

    I've been following this thread for many months now and the advice, suggestions and general discussion have greatly helped me to play my Arsenal Mercenary in a most entertaining and productive way. Big thanks to all !

    However, since 2.0, I've been having big issues with heat management. Especially in boss fights, I find myself using Rapid Shots more than a few times because my heat level is 4/4 and Vent Heat is on CD. This of course results in loss of DPS.

    My skill tree is identical to the one suggested by Forsedar and I have no Alacrity on my gear.

    My normal ability prioritization goes like:
    - Electro Net on CD
    - HSM on CD
    - Unload if Barrage has procced
    - Rail Shot if I have 5 x Tracer Locks
    - Tracer Missile
    - Vent Heat if more than 50% heat level

    In reality, due to excess heat, I end up using a lot of Unload without Barrage and a lot of Rapid Shots.

    Should I invest more in Alacrity? Should I use Vent Heat earlier/later than 50% heat? Should I spam Tracer Missile in a less rapid manner?

  18. #778
    Stay away from alacrity! PLEASE - it should be marked red, big and fat in guide

    Without the 4 pc from 1.6 there is much more heat to control. Thus you will have to use rapid shots more often - thats totally fine for now. For your rotation that means you will have to pay more attention. You need to plan better. When RailShot, HSM or Unload will come from cooldown next CD - use Rapid Shots to reduce your heat. That way you wont delay them often.
    Keep hitting the Ops-Dummy for several minutes and try to memorize the new heat-management requirements. Prio should be something like:

    HSM > Rail > EN > TM > RS

    Use TSO either for some FM or a Unload Cast. Unload cast is longer, thus will help you more to cooldown your heat. FM should be used when there are multiple targets.

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  19. #779
    I do think you should use Vent heat a little later, I typically push my heat level to 80% or so before using it.

    But I think the main thing you need to do is start weaving in rapid shots earlier in your rotation. Basically if you're next ability would push heat over 40, use Rapid Shot first (unless vent heat is off cooldown or within 10 seconds of coming off). Odawgg says he now uses about 7-8 rapid shots per minute, so that should give you a general idea.

  20. #780
    Quote Originally Posted by Keren View Post
    Both points are not written in stone from a holy mount. But I don't think that there are that many flaws left in my sim to change the outcome...

    TLR;
    1) perfect play provided - alacrity is more than worst - it will even lower your dps when you follow ABC (always be casting) A perfect player with low latency use pauses to check if Barrage procced about 1-2 times per hsm circle
    2) it seem to don't matter which set boni you use (old or new one)!
    3) sim will be ready soon™ (I fixed some technical flaws that will make the numbers more believable)



    * BIS has full power / surge setup; I tried few crit levels but everyone was lower than a full power setup.
    * BIS Setup with Aim augments came 15-20 dps ahead of power augments. (use whichever are cheaper...)
    * AskMrRobot will push out a 2.0 update for their Character Builder (tease: http://www.seriousguild.com/forums/t...mory-profiles/)
    TY for the tease Couple questions for you...

    *I'm assuming you went to 100% accuracy before adding surge?
    *Did you simulate stacking the two Tracer Missile set bonus from 2pc Dread Guard and 2pc Underworld?

    And just a couple of comments for what I'd love to see on the simulator, since I personally use these in my priority system....

    *Adjustment a "wait time" if HSM/Rail Shot/UL is coming off cd in .2-.3s for example
    *Ability to add in Rapid shots if cd of the above abilities is <= 1.5s regardless of current heat (unless vent heat cd<=10s)
    Last edited by odawgg; 2013-04-22 at 07:42 PM.

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