Why are people so protective of Sylvanas?

[Vesker]

Of all the things in the Warcraft story I find Sylvanas's future the most difficult to predict at the moment. You can always throw out the popular "Goes crazy, pulls shenanigans, gets killed" theory (which I'm sure many will argue is roughly 66% complete already) but I'm really not sure. I say this in pretty much every Sylvanas discussion on these forums but I really believe there'll be more to it. I didn't actually know until recently that Thassarian is actively hunting her down so maybe something will come of that. Exactly what Thassarian has been smoking that would make him believe himself a match for her I'm not sure but of all the people out for Sylvanas's blood he's the only one doing something about it right now as a top priority.

Koltira is an incompetent douche who was basically in the process of happily handing Andorhal over to the Alliance on a silver platter before the Dark Lady turned up and took the reins off him so I'm not terribly broken up about Sylvanas whisking him away for a stay in her basement but now that she's done that it'll be hard to get past this Thassarian/Koltira bromance issue without something rather dramatic happening. If something does happen with Sylvanas in the near future I'm thinking that'll be the spark that sets it off.

[ijffdrie]

But yeah, I agree Blizzard have written themselves into a corner there. Sylvanas has too many sins for them to all die with Garrosh, and his downfall/Thrall's reinstatement seems to be how they're going to paint this incoming Horde-wide redemption story.

There is only one solution for writing yourself in a corner...
HIRE A COMIC BOOK WRITER!

Solutions:
1) This is not Sylvanas, it's a s doombot mechanical replica planted by Varimathras. The actual Sylvanas is traveling in time, reliving her life/living through the lives of her ancestors/doing a Charlie's Angels rip-off with her sisters that takes over the entire emerald dream expansion.
2) Have Nathanos Blightcaller and Sylvanas get married, have Alleria get injured, have Sylvanas sell her marriage to Varimathras to safe Alleria, have this inexplicably remove all the evil acts.
3) Reveal that all the evil acts were actually from an in-universe play.
4) Have her die but be resurrected with the memories from before she did questionable stuff.
5) Have this be her teenage future-duplicate descendent, have the original return, and have them merge into one being who is technically a different person and absconded from all sins.
6) All of the forsaken-related quests only took place on azeroth-2. We will get stuck in a time gate, trapping us on Azeroth-1.
7) She is being manipulated by the spider-totem, which turns out to be responsible for her dark ranger powers, into battling the wolf-totem, who has empowered the worgen. So she was just manipulated into attacking Gilneas, not doing it of her own free will.
8) This is actually one of four Sylvanases, who came to live when she died. In the end, we will get them all to merge to recreate the original Sylvanas.

[Sole-Warrior]

Sorry but the OP needs to learn a little history.
Sylvanas = Hot 'n' Spicy!

[Taleq]

I just like her character design mainly, thats the only reason I like her.

[Vesker]

There is only one solution for writing yourself in a corner...
HIRE A COMIC BOOK WRITER!

Solutions:
1) This is not Sylvanas, it's a s doombot mechanical replica planted by Varimathras. The actual Sylvanas is traveling in time, reliving her life/living through the lives of her ancestors/doing a Charlie's Angels rip-off with her sisters that takes over the entire emerald dream expansion.
2) Have Nathanos Blightcaller and Sylvanas get married, have Alleria get injured, have Sylvanas sell her marriage to Varimathras to safe Alleria, have this inexplicably remove all the evil acts.
3) Reveal that all the evil acts were actually from an in-universe play.
4) Have her die but be resurrected with the memories from before she did questionable stuff.
5) Have this be her teenage future-duplicate descendent, have the original return, and have them merge into one being who is technically a different person and absconded from all sins.
6) All of the forsaken-related quests only took place on azeroth-2. We will get stuck in a time gate, trapping us on Azeroth-1.
7) She is being manipulated by the spider-totem, which turns out to be responsible for her dark ranger powers, into battling the wolf-totem, who has empowered the worgen. So she was just manipulated into attacking Gilneas, not doing it of her own free will.
8) This is actually one of four Sylvanases, who came to live when she died. In the end, we will get them all to merge to recreate the original Sylvanas.

Oh god, we might as well say dying, meeting Arthas in hell and coming back again some how brought a piece of him back with her which is pulling a Sargeras and lying dormant in her body while driving her to do increasingly Arthas-like things.

Actually that doesn't sound too far-fetched at this point. Dave Kosak, if you're reading this please don't be as dumb as I am.

[Adam Jensen]

Because of her large, undead, breasts.

[Deleted]

I feel for her mainly because Arthas killed her, and rather than letting her stay dead, brought her back to life as a banshee. I know there's more to it than that, but I don't really blame her for being a little.... mad, shall we say?

[esmifra]

OT:Puberty


@Baiyn:
I do understand what you mean but considering that the Warchief is an Orc and that Orcs are the Horde's leaders.

"Victory without honer is no victory"
"Victory or death"

I don't think i can agree with you.
Sylvannas is supposed to be obviously evil, and I like that from a lore standpoint. It turns things more interesting.
In fact I find strange that High Warlord Cromush turned to such fervent fan of the banshee queen so fast. I wonder if he suffered from the same treatment Koltira was promised. And what treatment is this?

[Deleted]

First as an answer to the OP's question: "Why are people so protective of Sylvanas?". Because, and this is simple, there are two kinds of people in this forum, some love a character for different reasons and others hate a character for other reasons... I'm shocked no-one has said this yet 0_o

Second, I must agree with Baiyn who wrote an excellent reply to Zaelsino.

[Deleted]

I'm glad my ranting was read. I'll admit it looks a little daunting to bother with.

And, I wouldn't say that Cromush is a fan of the Banshee Queen, at all. I think he merely understands how important her command is on that front and that, to lose her, would probably mean losing the allegiance of the Forsaken, something that the Horde couldn't afford at that time and probably couldn't now either, even with Deathwing dead.

And, you may see her as evil, and I can understand that, but my point about a redemption is, that most of Sylvanas 'crimes' have so far been kept or swept under the rug, with very few people outside the Forsaken knowing about them. Areas like Hillsbrad with its dead/killing fields, are likely designed for Forsaken players, and probably assume that a life-loving tauren druid or orc shaman is highly unlikely to travel through there. The area is not attractive to those that would likely tell the Warchief about Sylvanas' sins. So, to the unknowing majority, she's pretty clean.

[Albert the fish]

See, now, to me, a 'sin' in the context of Warcraft, and particularly the Horde and their faction doctrine, is a betrayal of the absolute leader, the Warchief. And, as far as I can recall, Sylvanas has made no betrayal of the Horde which has actually come to light, at least, not beyond High Warlord Cromush, after his stationing in the Eastern Kingdoms.

Her one potential sin, committed against the current Warchief, would have been the use of the plague and necromancy after Garrosh explicitly ordered her not to. This was, I believe, never made known to Garrosh and I think it is because after being stationed with the Forsaken, Cromush began to understand how fundamental Sylvanas was to their political/military structure, their culture and, most importantly, keeping them somewhat in check. I believe this revelation is articulated in his frantic, barked order at the Valk'yr, demanding they, "Fix her...FIX HER!", when she is shot by Crowley.
I think, after he saw how she operated and undeniably got results (despite being temporarily set back by a bullet in the brain!), he decided to keep schtum on any tactics she might have utilised which the Warchief might have disagreed with. (Whether he did actually rat her out is not known yet, could change, but I work with what I've got.)

Of course, she has done many cruel, cold, malicious and downright wicked things recently. But, we have to remember who to, it was the humans. The enemies of the Horde. The enemies in an open war. These are not despicable tactics used against unsuspecting targets in covert operations, something which both factions were guilty of during the unspoken cold war between the Alliance and Horde before the Wrathgate. This is open war, one which Varian, a leader on the other side declared. Some of the things she has done have been terrible. But, it wasn't done to the people on her side (not since WC3-ish time). She's done well by the Horde. Got them a port, made their lands in the Eastern Kingdoms more secure and kept the Alliance forces in Eastern Kingdoms too busy to attempt to take much more of Kalimdor (imagine the Barrens fight if Sylvanas wasn't causing trouble on the other side of the pond.).

Her moral 'sins' are many. But, for the Horde, it shouldn't matter (also worth noting, many of the terrible things she has done have only been seen by we, the omniscient players, and a few characters in game. The majority of people, both sides, are not privy to the insight we have).

But, if it is sins committed against the Horde which we are talking about being forgiven, with the reinstatement of Thrall as top-dog, Sylvanas has none to redeem for (which most people know about ).

Of course, Blizzard might feel the same way many people seem to do. That she must repent for making an enemy suffer. Something which seems ludicrous to me, but they could very well choose to think that way, especially with making Thrall Warchief again and bringing back Horde Light. >_<'

Hope that made sense. I waffled. (Oh Lawdy! Wall of text. I'm sorry but it's a discussion I enjoy contributing to! )

Wait your argument is that if it is a war crime or nobody knows about it, it gets to be ok and not evil or a sin? That's a pretty loose argument sir.
War crimes are war crimes, they are not justified because "war". Abu ghraib is a wonderful real life example. As far as "well the warchief doesn't know, so it's ok" defense, that's pure and complete bias rearing it's head IMO because that's a terrible excuse.

[esmifra]

Wait your argument is that if it is a war crime or nobody knows about it, it gets to be ok and not evil or a sin? That's a pretty loose argument sir.
War crimes are war crimes, they are not justified because "war". Abu ghraib is a wonderful real life example. As far as "well the warchief doesn't know, so it's ok" defense, that's pure and complete bias rearing it's head IMO because that's a terrible excuse.

No his point is that from a lore stand point it easy for her to get away with things because no one knows what she has done.

[Albert the fish]

No his point is that from a lore stand point it easy for her to get away with things because no one knows what she has done.

I misunderstood. My apologies.
My question then is, what bearing does that have on her character? Shes not looked upon as innocent in any way, even her own allies don't allow her to guard her own city out of distrust of her and her underlings. They just don't all know the deapths to which she's sunk. While I agree with you in that she does get away with a lot, it doesn't make her more or even less interesting as a character. It reflects more on the other leaders that are blind to it more than it reflects on her in any direct fashion. Although I guess it speaks some to her level of intelligence, which is something.

It also doesn't effect the whole "evil" or not as I addressed earlier.

[Deleted]

Wait your argument is that if it is a war crime or nobody knows about it, it gets to be ok and not evil or a sin? That's a pretty loose argument sir.
War crimes are war crimes, they are not justified because "war". Abu ghraib is a wonderful real life example. As far as "well the warchief doesn't know, so it's ok" defense, that's pure and complete bias rearing it's head IMO because that's a terrible excuse.

Not exactly what I am saying, I was saying if her redemption was to be before the Horde, there really is no case for redemption because her questionable acts are not known to most of the people who might care and might insist she answers/pays for what she has done.
And, if people were expecting her to have to pay for making an enemy suffer in a war-themed environment, one in which many people have been pleading for the war in warcraft to be amped up, seems foolish to me. She killed a lot humans, I see no problem with this, considering the context. In an open war, declared by the opposing faction, she is the only leader producing results and amping up enemy casualties.
If you want to get into the morality of raising the dead, I could argue the pros and cons til the cows come home, but to me, considering the vagueness of WoW's afterlife, I feel offering those you have slaughtered a second chance to live, is really not such a terrible thing at all. I believe that most enemies risen have a say in whether or not they stay alive and serve the Forsaken, but the undead giving you an opportunity to be concious again, is more than any orc or night elf warrior has ever offered to their enemies after they defeat them in battle.

[Tydrane]

I'm glad my ranting was read. I'll admit it looks a little daunting to bother with.

And, I wouldn't say that Cromush is a fan of the Banshee Queen, at all. I think he merely understands how important her command is on that front and that, to lose her, would probably mean losing the allegiance of the Forsaken, something that the Horde couldn't afford at that time and probably couldn't now either, even with Deathwing dead.

And, you may see her as evil, and I can understand that, but my point about a redemption is, that most of Sylvanas 'crimes' have so far been kept or swept under the rug, with very few people outside the Forsaken knowing about them. Areas like Hillsbrad with its dead/killing fields, are likely designed for Forsaken players, and probably assume that a life-loving tauren druid or orc shaman is highly unlikely to travel through there. The area is not attractive to those that would likely tell the Warchief about Sylvanas' sins. So, to the unknowing majority, she's pretty clean.

I read it, too - I liked the perspective you gave, it was something I hadn't really thought a lot about; particularly the part about Sylvanas being a key element in Horde military command. I think that the Forsaken, while undoubtedly, collectively sinister, derive their direction, drive and purpose from Sylvanas. If she were to be killed, I'd expect that the rest of the Forsaken, without her moderating influence, without her to guide and direct their malignance, would become vastly more dangerous and deadly; prone to attacking friend and foe alike without any regard for their own self-preservation.

[Xeones]

Sylvanis is a war criminal, she is turning into the next Lichking. She will be dying in MOP.

[Albert the fish]

Not exactly what I am saying, I was saying if her redemption was to be before the Horde, there really is no case for redemption because her questionable acts are not known to most of the people who might care and might insist she answers/pays for what she has done.
And, if people were expecting her to have to pay for making an enemy suffer in a war-themed environment, one in which many people have been pleading for the war in warcraft to be amped up, seems foolish to me. She killed a lot humans, I see no problem with this, considering the context. In an open war, declared by the opposing faction, she is the only leader producing results and amping up enemy casualties.
If you want to get into the morality of raising the dead, I could argue the pros and cons til the cows come home, but to me, considering the vagueness of WoW's afterlife, I feel offering those you have slaughtered a second chance to live, is really not such a terrible thing at all. I believe that most enemies risen have a say in whether or not they stay alive and serve the Forsaken, but the undead giving you an opportunity to be concious again, is more than any orc or night elf warrior has ever offered to their enemies after they defeat them in battle.

Fair enough on many points, but let's consider a few things. She is generally distrusted and this shows, so it's not really that no one knows that she's not doing anything wrong, it's just that everyone thinks she is , but can't typically prove it. Killing humans during wartime is perfectly fine, keeping them captive to perfect biological warfare on them is not so much. Continuing this biological warfare and study even after everyone else, in lauding the orcs who aren't considered pretty brutal and ok with a higher level of atrocity during war are simply aghast, that's hard to defend as ok because war.
As far a rising to undeath, I won't deny that many fall into it and accept it readily, however it painted fairly continuously as both forced and nearly torture to most people. Blizzard had neer been shy about saying that being undead in their world sort of sucks ass.
Maybe if I saw more example of peole being offered choice in the matter or expressing a liking for it. Most forsaken even seem to be portrayed as extremely bitter about being undead and simply going with ana attitude of
" I'm undead? Fuck you, you want a monster then I'll give you one!" which is understandable, but doesn't exactly play into the notion that Amos's of them enjoy it.

Sidenote, thanks for having intelligent defenses instead of babble. I enjoy this.

[Deleted]

I read it, too - I liked the perspective you gave, it was something I hadn't really thought a lot about; particularly the part about Sylvanas being a key element in Horde military command. I think that the Forsaken, while undoubtedly, collectively sinister, derive their direction, drive and purpose from Sylvanas. If she were to be killed, I'd expect that the rest of the Forsaken, without her moderating influence, without her to guide and direct their malignance, would become vastly more dangerous and deadly; prone to attacking friend and foe alike without any regard for their own self-preservation.

Glad to offer a new angle.
I agree, that the Forsaken would probably be very dangerous if they didn't have Sylvanas there to rally around and give them a raison d'être. Her personality cult likely gives them a focus, something to work for and just a reason to continue being, when there would otherwise not be much left for them after Arthas betrayed and destroyed the kingdom.

Fair enough on many points, but let's consider a few things. She is generally distrusted and this shows, so it's not really that no one knows that she's not doing anything wrong, it's just that everyone thinks she is , but can't typically prove it. Killing humans during wartime is perfectly fine, keeping them captive to perfect biological warfare on them is not so much. Continuing this biological warfare and study even after everyone else, in lauding the orcs who aren't considered pretty brutal and ok with a higher level of atrocity during war are simply aghast, that's hard to defend as ok because war.
As far a rising to undeath, I won't deny that many fall into it and accept it readily, however it painted fairly continuously as both forced and nearly torture to most people. Blizzard had neer been shy about saying that being undead in their world sort of sucks ass.
Maybe if I saw more example of peole being offered choice in the matter or expressing a liking for it. Most forsaken even seem to be portrayed as extremely bitter about being undead and simply going with ana attitude of
" I'm undead? Fuck you, you want a monster then I'll give you one!" which is understandable, but doesn't exactly play into the notion that Amos's of them enjoy it.

Sidenote, thanks for having intelligent defenses instead of babble. I enjoy this.

Undeniable that she is distrusted, but if she manages to survive until Thrall's reinstatement as Warchief, I think she'll be in the clear, in terms of any threats to her life coming from within her faction (save, maybe, from Lillian Voss).
Suspicion has never been enough reason for Thrall to kill anyone, being too trusting is one of his major character faults and it has bitten him in the ass multiple times, a la Putress (It's one of the reasons I won't call him a Mary-Sue, because his willingness to trust untrustworthy characters extends to the point of childish naivety).

The Sludge Fields in Hillsbrad are abhorrent, I'll admit, and they are one of the several examples of ventures taken up by Forsaken which stops me sympathising with them at times. But, reading Warden Stillwater's WoWPedia page, it seems that the bio-experiments and the goal of creating more perfect undead slaves are his idea. One which he tries very carefully to not let the Dark Lady know about by destroying evidence where ever he can.
It seems Sylvanas herself, is content with using the Valk'yr to raise new Forsaken, with all the potentially rebellious baggage that comes with it.

The nature of undeath and different people's reaction to it, is very difficult to discuss, because, as you mentioned, some people seem to embrace it readily and others are horrified by what they have become. The raising of new undead is something I wouldn't have defended as readily before reading Sylvanas' short-story and, to some degree, observing the Naaru's behaviour during their quest to save Crusader Bridenbrad. But, I am very unsure what qualifies a person for Warcraft Hell. It's a horrifying place and it seems that Arthas was condemned to it for eternity, despite walking down a dark path with good intentions, as was Sylvanas, when at the point of her second death had not used necromancy herself and was merely touched by undeath involuntarily and when trying to count her mortal sins up to that point, I had, screwing over demons, a bigot and killing some people, not much more sinful than any other faction leader. Yet, she was still damned.
Maybe she is doing the same thing to others, but the "good" powers that be, like the Naaru, seem very capricious in who they choose to save from damnation and who they might let slide into hell. Bridenbrad was spared Sylvanas' fate, but what of all the other casualties to the Lich King?

Glad you like the debate, I do too.

[Albert the fish]

Glad to offer a new angle.
I agree, that the Forsaken would probably be very dangerous if they didn't have Sylvanas there to rally around and give them a raison d'être. Her personality cult likely gives them a focus, something to work for and just a reason to continue being, when there would otherwise not be much left for them after Arthas betrayed and destroyed the kingdom.

certainly very true, but are we to assume that the only one that can give them purpose is Sylvanas? after all even Putress led a sizable sect of Forsaken away from Sylvanas and into demonic servitude.
be back to continue this interesting discussion later, class is now

[GennGreymane]

Our lady should be the leader of the horde. She is the embodiment of what the horde should be. Taking land form the alliance, wanting to have it all and will stop at nothing to get what is rightfully hers. She escaped the liche kings grasp and now has no fears. Our lady will put a arrow through garroshs heart if hse has the chance. ..... I dont know many people that like garrosh, my server doesnt even defend him when the alliance kill him. Garrosh was a mistake, needs to be taken out back and shot, and hopefully someone with the true vision of the horde will take up the throne as warchief. If it is not Lady Sylvanas, atleast make it Vol'jin.

so you want her as leader of the the horde....... for the same reasons people hate garrosh.