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  1. #1

    The Expansion Won't Fix The Biggest Problem in the Game: The World

    <|Premise|>


    For raiders and dungeon crawlers (the majority of warcrafters) you'll still be stuck afk'ing in cities waiting on queues and lockout timers. PvP'ers pretty much as well.

    You want people out in the world, there needs to be an incentive for these people that is just as strong as going to these instances. There needs to be a unique currency in the open world and competitive rewards monetized by it. Remember, not everyone likes pokemon and not everyone is interested in growing plants, although it's cool that it's there for those people. However, adding those things to the game don't add much for raiders, dungeon crawlers and PvP'ers:



    PvE

    - Instead of instancing scenarios they could have made it open world and then adding a switch to make any scenario anywhere "heroic" boosting the difficulty to end game.

    - Non-instanced very big and long open world dungeons ( they used to do this )

    - Open World Bosses ( they got a few of these )

    - Open World PvE currency needs to be exclusive from other currencies as well as having its own exclusive and competitive gear.

    Edit: Stopping Exploitation in open world PvE

    5 man open world dungeons could have multiple entrances with CDs on those entry points, there is a timer on how long the group has inside the dungeon. Raids cannot enter. Open world bosses can either A) give a buff to the primary raid group that started the encounter to stop them instantly dying from an AE attack or B) balance the boss to have a ton of players participate with individual loot distributed amongst the participants.





    PvP

    - Open world PvP simply needs its own currency and competitive exclusive rewards, maybe even the top PvP weapons could only be bought with open world PvP currency

    - Open world PvP areas: now it failed last time because the rewards sucked, they didn't have lockouts so factions constantly switched unopposed areas meaning people just take another while the other faction occupies the other etc etc. Open world PvP areas with lockouts, once you take the area many elite guards will be there making it impossible for "x" amount of time and they will despawn, this makes sure each PvP area gets used and circulates players around the world.

    - Owning a PvP area streams resources to your faction distributed amongst player characters, every "x" minutes/hour(s) you are streamed in game currencies, owning more PvP areas accumulates more streamed currencies per "x" minutes/hour(s).

    - Killing unique players in succession yields higher point gains, with repeatable world pvp achievements by killing players in certain ways can up your rank increasing yield and lost if you die to another player. I.e. kill 25 players get the slayer rank and buff etc Getting an extremely high succession of kills will mark you on the opposing factions world map and a bounty will be placed on your head, you cannot ride flying mounts with this bounty.

    - Leader board ranking for daily, weekly and monthly pvp kills and achievements earned etc etc.

    - Also aside from offline measures which Blizzard should enact to balance servers, underdog features should be introduced to help including but not limited to, a bolstering buff similar to that of WG, a 3rd rogue faction that will attack the current occupant in addition the to opposing faction, stealth/guerilla warfare type skills specific to the world pvp area like bombs booby traps, temporary stealth devices usable in combat etc etc.

    Edit: Stopping Exploitation in open world PvP

    As mention before there are lockouts likely to be 24 hours resetting at a specific hour on a server's peak time, the majority of open world PvP points come from these open world PvP areas, which have faction wide benefits. Kill trading will be discouraged by diminishing returns. Engaging in world PvP will put a 10 minute debuff on you that will disable use of flying mounts. You can go to major towns and cities to remove this debuff for gold.






    For PvP these changes aren't very difficult to apply it's just another competitive loot table, currency and giving world PvP areas (that don't already have them) lockouts, places like TB and Wintergrasp need to be made bigger and have their instancing removed with legit tools/strategies created for underdog factions. Creating open world end game PvE content for scenario's might need some work but it is essentially setting up a triggered event with a switch on it, 2 things that already exist in the game. So overall, all of the tech is all there, these simple changes would in fact bring people out in the world PERMANENTLY.



    Enjoy MoP being the same pony trick Cata was.

    Edit: The main point is to have people out and about in the world, although yes we can come up with a myriad of solutions for exploitation and imbalance, the main focus is that PEOPLE WILL GO OUTSIDE AND NOT AFK IN CITIES. Which the above would duly accomplish. To conclude, don't post if you're simply going to say something won't work, it is not constructive to point out a problem and not add a possible/plausible solution/remedy. Go back to 9gag if you want to be captain obvious or Sherlock Holmes. This is not to be construed with me not wanting "negative" feedback, no this is me not wanting useless feedback.

    I.e. "This rocket needs way more fuel than the current pipping can allow, yeah it will fail." Yeah no shit, think of a way to increase it rather than just point it out. If unanimously the scientists came to the conclusion that there is no feasible solution in the universe, then and only then you can say it will fail. Derp.
    Last edited by peedei; 2012-04-29 at 02:30 AM.

  2. #2
    Outdoor instances that aren't instanced? Outdoor non-instanced scenarios? Well your intentions are good but... if you could explain how any of this could be remotely possible tech-wise/programming-wise then your ideas could be liable. All I can imagine are groups of people waiting in line behind other groups clearing these outdoor dungeons.

  3. #3
    An issue I see with the PvP system you propose is the low pop servers or the servers with 20:1 ratios. Simply cannot happen like that.

  4. #4
    Old God endersblade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peedei View Post
    For raiders and dungeon crawlers (the majority of warcrafters) you'll still be stuck afk'ing in cities waiting on queues and lockout timers. PvP'ers pretty much as well.

    You want people out in the world, there needs to be an incentive for these people that is just as strong as going to these instances. There needs to be a unique currency in the open world and competitive rewards monetized by it. Remember, not everyone likes pokemon and not everyone is interested in growing plants, although it's cool that it's there for those people. However, adding those things to the game don't add much for raiders, dungeon crawlers and PvP'ers:



    PvE

    - Instead of instancing scenarios they could have made it open world and then adding a switch to make any scenario anywhere "heroic" boosting the difficulty to end game.

    - Non-instanced very big and long open world dungeons ( they used to do this )

    - Open World Bosses ( they got a few of these )

    - Open World PvE currency needs to be exclusive from other currencies as well as having its own exclusive and competitive gear.



    PvP

    - Open world PvP simply needs its own currency and competitive exclusive rewards, maybe even the top PvP weapons could only be bought with open world PvP currency

    - Open world PvP areas: now it failed last time because the rewards sucked, they didn't have lockouts so factions constantly switched unopposed areas meaning people just take another while the other faction occupies the other etc etc. Open world PvP areas with lockouts, once you take the area many elite guards will be there making it impossible for "x" amount of time and they will despawn, this makes sure each PvP area gets used and circulates players around the world.

    - Owning a PvP area streams resources to your faction distributed amongst player characters, every "x" minutes/hour(s) you are streamed in game currencies, owning more PvP areas accumulates more streamed currencies per "x" minutes/hour(s).





    For PvP these changes aren't very difficult to apply it's just another competitive loot table, currency and giving world PvP areas (that don't already have them) lockouts, places like TB and Wintergrasp need to be made bigger and have their instancing removed with legit tools/strategies created for underdog factions. Creating open world end game PvE content for scenario's might need some work but it is essentially setting up a triggered event with a switch on it, 2 things that already exist in the game. So overall, all of the tech is all there, these simple changes would in fact bring people out in the world PERMANENTLY.

    Enjoy MoP being the same pony trick Cata was.
    What they NEED to do is A) Get rid of the 5 instances per hour fucking bullshit, so we can farm for transmog gear easier; B) Get rid of one-per-day lockouts on heroics; and C) As far as PvP goes, yes, having open-world reasons to kill each other would be very much welcomed.
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  5. #5
    Having non-instanced things be a big part of the game sort of skews difficulty. You can always stuff way more people than intended into an area to make it way easier, pve-wise. I can't count how many times I was on a quest that would have involved clearing a lot of mobs or fighting a boss by myself only to have it be made way easier because someone else was on it, or because 20 people were on it and the whole area was cleared enough to just walk in and grab an item I need, or just hit the quest boss one time while he's getting gangbanged by the 20 other players in the area.. If you want rift-style world events, how hard do you make them? They will basically range between impossible (not enough people on) or ridiculously easy because the area is flooded with 3x the intended players for the job.

    It would basically just crap on low population servers or servers with bad horde/alliance ratios. I could see a system with phasing that creates separate "instances" without the loading screen and separated "feel" but to really make the game revolve around non-instanced areas would be a mistake imo.

  6. #6
    I think that a quick fix for this would be to make /2 (that's where pu groups are made on my server, and I suppose it's the same for every server) readable from everywhere. You may not be able to write, but at least be able to read. I believe it's one of the main reason why people are sitting in capitals.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Bombkirby View Post
    Outdoor instances that aren't instanced? Outdoor non-instanced scenarios? Well your intentions are good but... if you could explain how any of this could be remotely possible tech-wise/programming-wise then your ideas could be liable. All I can imagine are groups of people waiting in line behind other groups clearing these outdoor dungeons.
    A scenario is triggering an event in a game, this is just like the headless horseman or brewfest boss, just in the open world with quest objectives attached to it. The switch to make it heroic is like every hard-mode raid boss switch or maybe they can make new ones or simply just activate a buff that any events you trigger will be heroic mode.

    It's all there, the game can do a lot more than Blizz let's on.


    @Scadouche,

    The only reason there are 20:1 pop^ servers is simply because Blizz allowed as there is no real necessity to bother intervening. For a long time Blizzard has not bothered trying to create a persistent world, the "world" pvp zones (TB and WG) got instances slapped on them instead of Blizzard either balancing servers or creating ways an underdog faction can compete; stealth/guerilla warfare etc.

    If you look at games that are based in RvR the devs make sure there is good faction balance.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by endersblade View Post
    What they NEED to do is A) Get rid of the 5 instances per hour fucking bullshit, so we can farm for transmog gear easier; B) Get rid of one-per-day lockouts on heroics; and C) As far as PvP goes, yes, having open-world reasons to kill each other would be very much welcomed.

    The only reason that people should have to kill someone else out in the open world is that they're red, imo the problem lies in the player base.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by bargio View Post
    I think that a quick fix for this would be to make /2 (that's where pu groups are made on my server, and I suppose it's the same for every server) readable from everywhere. You may not be able to write, but at least be able to read. I believe it's one of the main reason why people are sitting in capitals.
    The recruit feature in the LFG chat channel in Aion is pretty cool, you can see that channel all over the game and by clicking the recruit group button you can apply to some ones group. Blizzard made the big mistake of not adding better tools to making groups and instead quite literally taking away the whole responsibility from players entirely.


    @newccowafer,

    Now tech the game doesn't have is live scaling of difficulty i.e. setting the difficulty level based on the amount of people there set at a median of the majority level range. But what it really boils down to, do you want to face roll in an instance or outside? Also some open world dungeon bosses could just have raid boss mechanics, having numbers won't count there then. Having numbers only really counts with simple tasks like: "hit the boss till it dies".

    ---------- Post added 2012-04-29 at 01:01 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by endersblade View Post
    What they NEED to do is A) Get rid of the 5 instances per hour fucking bullshit, so we can farm for transmog gear easier; B) Get rid of one-per-day lockouts on heroics; and C) As far as PvP goes, yes, having open-world reasons to kill each other would be very much welcomed.
    I reckon they should make "TRANSMOG DUNGEONS", mobs are scaled to end game, all items that drop are tradeable but have no stats (obviously transmoggable), class restrictions still apply ofc. Just opened up a new market.

  10. #10
    Your ideas for PvE are completely terrible, and the only reason I can think of that you would even suggest such things is that you played Everquest way back in the day. If not, well it doesn't matter. So let's break it down, shall we?

    Firstly, WoW never had open world dungeons that were not instanced. NEVER. There were world bosses and that was it, and no, Tainted Scar does not count as your example, Kazzak was a world boss.

    Secondly, there is an excellent reason why dungeons are instanced instead of open world. See, when you have a boss that is available to be attacked by more than a set number of people, you invite several scenarios. Either, you have zerg guilds who invite as many players as they can and then throw this mass of players at the boss, which destroys balancing; or, you have guilds competing for spawns by camping the boss spots 24 hours a day.

    In case you haven't played Everquest, way back when, all bosses were open world and there was no such thing as instances. The bosses were always buried behind large amounts of difficult trash in massive dungeons, and there weren't flying mounts so you had to work through every single mob to get to the boss you wanted. The average dungeon excursion would take hours on end, and you may not see more than 1 boss in that time! Blizzard has been specifically avoiding adding in such cockblocks that only serve to lengthen the amount of time you have to play to accomplish anything.

    While I agree that incentive needs to be added to leave the cities, open world dungeons just isn't the way to do it.

  11. #11
    The game needs more places like Halaa (central location, small size and availability would be the biggest factors for making it fairly active) or whatever the town in the middle of Nagrand is called, I dno about others but I had tons of fun there.
    Last edited by Jpp; 2012-04-29 at 01:12 AM.

  12. #12
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    - Open world PvP simply needs its own currency and competitive exclusive rewards, maybe even the top PvP weapons could only be bought with open world PvP currency
    I seriously disagree. In fact, ALL pvp needs just one type of armor. Arena shouldnt get a "special set." PVP armor across the board needs to be exactly the same.

  13. #13
    isn't the biggest problem you know the community..
    The world doesn't really bother me that much, kind of a part of wow that you sit in citys and it really won't change much

  14. #14
    Go back to BC like forms of transportation, no zoning into instances from somewhere else. I can't tell you the number of times in BC wars broke out around summoning stones at raid time. These wars could then fuel long term beefs between guilds/factions that kept the server interesting.

  15. #15
    My idea for PvP would have it to were each town/stronghold/fort/etc. would have a flag there, if someone from the opposing faction went there, they could capture it, but they would need to remove the level 85 guards from those places, like how people always fought over Crossroads, now, you could capture it and claim it for your faction, and it would give you a buff like 5% Experience from killing monsters/beasts and questing.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by peedei View Post
    For raiders and dungeon crawlers (the majority of warcrafters) you'll still be stuck afk'ing in cities waiting on queues and lockout timers. PvP'ers pretty much as well.

    You want people out in the world, there needs to be an incentive for these people that is just as strong as going to these instances.
    Thanks, but no thanks. I quit playing Rift after a month and a half for a reason.

  17. #17
    The whole outdoor scenario could be fixed with phasing and making it multi layered should there be too many people, though no one knows how scenarios will turn out, right ? I haven't seen one yet and tbh, my money is on it beeing the feature of this expansion that will get scrapped, because they realize that they just introduce an instanced daily quest zone w/o quests, the way it currently shapes up.

    Imho the structure of the world should be more along the lines of telling a story while questing in the area, making progression permanent (if I liberated that temple it should effin stay that way unless another story is told) but make it possible to disable it or more the point join the phase of a party member. Then scenarios should randomly happen around the world and tell their own little stories and should be confined to their own phase. That way you'd have a sense of an evolving world and yet still don't make every zone you've been to a tranquil flower garden with critters jumping around and druids getting high on their weed...
    You can see them trying this in a few places, yet they still have a long way to go. For example the way they try telling the story of a dungeon and its inhabitants before sending you into it later is a nice touch they did with Jade Temple and Stormstout Brewery.
    Last edited by Cosmic Janitor; 2012-04-29 at 01:22 AM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Locruid View Post
    I seriously disagree. In fact, ALL pvp needs just one type of armor. Arena shouldnt get a "special set." PVP armor across the board needs to be exactly the same.
    The idea is to get people out in the world, if you don't give anything exclusive or unique and competitive to it's existence people will not go and do it.

    @Jpp,

    They do but they also need more reasons to go there other than "for the lulz".


    @widowkiller,

    Chill bro, this is just an incentive to go outside. If it does just that then it accomplishes its main goal. To stop zerging or at least slow it down, the dungeon could have multiple entry points with their own quirks to navigating the open world dungeon, however each entry point has a universal CD, when some enters at a certain gate it gets locked off for a certain amount of time, if some enters from that point the trash will begin to respawn almost resetting it for the group, to top it off only a 5 man group can enter at a time per gate CD, if you're not in a group you'll be ported out. Raids cannot be formed inside.

    Try and present a solution next time other than saying it can't work. Anything can work really, you just have to provide a working solution, the above might not be the definitive case but I still have plenty more ideas.

  19. #19
    No, I'd say having numbers really affects raid boss mechanics. All raid fights are easier when they don't last very long. The longer a fight goes the higher the probability of making a mistake gets. Also in the outside world you can have an almost infinite amount of people corpse running to the point where it stops being wipeable without seriously cheesy mechanics. A fight that lasts 5 minutes is much harder than a fight that lasts 1 minute even if the difficulty is constant throughout. Especially think about healers. Most healers can burst heal as hard as they can for a full minute, but not for 5 minutes unless they're gearing for regen they don't need. Everyone spamming their biggest heal all the time would have made many raid fights way easier.

    If you could cheese and bring in 40 people to do a 25 man boss fight, most of the fights would be way easier. Remaining fights would probably be almost impossible if they contain spread-out mechanics or whatnot. A world boss that is unwipe-able or a world boss that is impossible if it's a busy day to the point where you have people screaming at each other to please leave the zone so it's possible are both failed designs in my opinion. I'd rather have the skills of my group measured in a vacuum where the whims of other people on my server don't affect whether we win or lose, and I think that type of play deserves to have the better rewards that it currently does.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Haidaes View Post
    The whole outdoor scenario could be fixed with phasing and making it multi layered should there be too many people, though no one knows how scenarios will turn out, right ? I haven't seen one yet and tbh, my money is on it beeing the feature of this expansion that will get scrapped, because they realize that they just introduce an instanced daily quest zone w/o quests, the way it currently shapes up.

    Imho the structure of the world should be more along the lines of telling a story while questing in the area, making progression permanent (if I liberated that temple it should effin stay that way unless another story is told) but make it possible to disable it or more the point join the phase of a party member. Then scenarios should randomly happen around the world and tell their own little stories and should be confined to their own phase. That way you'd have a sense of an evolving world and yet still don't make every zone you've been to a tranquil flower garden with critters jumping around and druids getting high on their weed...
    You can see them trying this in a few places, yet they still have a long way to go. For example the way they try telling the story of a dungeon and its inhabitants before sending you into it later is a nice touch they did with Jade Temple and Stormstout Brewery.
    You really don't want phasing involved, this creates a whole myriad of problems, what you're actually getting at is world based instance channels. Due to generally high pops for the majority of popular Asian MMO's they have the world wide channels, i.e. world 1, 2, 3 etc almost like a server inside a server to cope with the ridiculous amount of people in the game.

    Scenarios are essentially instanced public quests from WAR online, or instanced redundant versions of rifts from Rift. If you get a zerg going that is probably the best possible scenario in an MMO, people signed up to be grouped with LOTS OF PEOPLES!!! If looting is a problem then give individual loot to everyone based on their contribution.

    With questing in the world you should check out how GW2 questing works, this is what I think MMO'ers have always wanted from a questing system, i.e. accomplishing a quest moves the story AND the world forward; failing a quest still continues to move the story AND the world forward. It ends at its extreme of how bad it can get and how good it can get. This actually gives players a choice too: "do you want to help out or watch everything burn?". What if you don't like Mr. Figgles and you want to see his farm ransacked.

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