[Megathread] Elder Scrolls Online

[Remilia]

Until everyone starts theorycrafting and optimizing everything and then complaining about a lack of variety.

This game needs to focus heavily on immersion to ensure it doesn't go the way of WoW.

and thus why I despise theory crafting cause all theory crafting is based off of is the variables of the stats.

Let's take two examples (actually taking this from a different game).

Setup / Class A - Outputs at 1000x dps in ideal situation with 0 hiccup.
Setup / Class B - Outputs at 790x dps in ideal situation.

Issue.
A can't set up and conform situations to their ideal state at will, decreasing their dps drastically.
B can conform situations into their ideal state at will the majority of the time, which increases their up time and overall damage output.
Now, if A gets an ideal situation (lawlno), then A does more damage, else B > A cause A gets slashed into bits by mechanics.

Theory crafting is nice and all for the epeen but in reality it is generally different and those that can see the differences shouldn't even need to have other people theory craft for them.

[blackyfrost]

i know recount is a tool, but every piece of info we get pushes us further to minmaxing and i'd personally enjoy it if we just didn't have that info and went by feel

not sure i thought this 5 years ago, maybe i'm getting old, but it's like someone who went to college to do something vs someone who did it for 4 years....the person with actual experience simply knows more and what's best, they know how to handle situations that they've actually went through where shit doesn't go according to plan. education will never be more valuable than experience and with experience, you'll be able to feel out what combo/class/spec whatever, does what the best. that adds immersion that you can't replace when you theorycraft the fuck out of something.

even after all the math it REALLY comes down to execution. i wish they'd let players feel out the game and then respond to that with tuning instead of expecting a 95% perfection level and tuning for that or worse, tuning it to the lowest common denominator

[vizzle]

Really I just wish we could get everyone to play Ragnarok Online. Get all the fans, all the devs, you guys just play Ragnarok Online 5 years ago when it was in its prime. Then we could show the MMO community that you don't need this min/max BS that WoW has conformed everyone to, and optimization doesn't need to be the only and best way to play the game.

Ideally, we need to stray away from competitive raiding. That's what drives people to min/max so much. Don't have cut-throat raiding, and if you do, don't have combat logs and all this data and all. Raiding is fun, but other games have raiding; TESO should be something different.

Another important thing that should be stressed to push away from the numbers game is utility. More and more utility, unique items, unique buffs, unique things that make you do things in the environment instead of add to you as passive bonuses.

[Remilia]

Amusingly enough, I have never been on theorycrafting sites like Elitist Jerk and such and just logically look at these stuff.

[vizzle]

Amusingly enough, I have never been on theorycrafting sites like Elitist Jerk and such and just logically look at these stuff.

Theorycrafting could be the difference between being perfect and being good for a lot of things, especially when you were deciding between ArP gems or Strength gems, stuff like that. When you're boiling it down to the littlest things, it can be hard to just look at it and see which is better without going through the math. But that game is WoW's, TESO shouldn't have that.

[Remilia]

Theorycrafting could be the difference between being perfect and being good for a lot of things, especially when you were deciding between ArP gems or Strength gems, stuff like that. When you're boiling it down to the littlest things, it can be hard to just look at it and see which is better without going through the math. But that game is WoW's, TESO shouldn't have that.

Stat wise for me is a matter of logic and mechanics. Theory crafters generally don't plug in random variables until they fit I presume. They take the logical path, and then start deviating from there and actually start crunching numbers. I just skip the number crunching cause that's dumb.

In terms of execution theory crafting (rotation, priorities, whatever) though, is that 1% really going to help you if you're dead, is the type of thing I find. Especially those that blindly follow what others said are generally the ones that fall and die from what I've seen.

The person that looks at what they're given and uses it logically and accordingly > the person that can't adapt and dies miserably yet performing to 'theory'.

[vizzle]

Stat wise for me is a matter of logic and mechanics. Theory crafters generally don't plug in random variables until they fit I presume. They take the logical path, and then start deviating from there and actually start crunching numbers. I just skip the number crunching cause that's dumb.

In terms of execution theory crafting (rotation, priorities, whatever) though, is that 1% really going to help you if you're dead, is the type of thing I find. Especially those that blindly follow what others said are generally the ones that fall and die from what I've seen.

The person that looks at what they're given and uses it logically and accordingly > the person that can't adapt and dies miserably yet performing to 'theory'.

And the person who does both performs the best. Let's not generalize -- idiots will always be idiots (I just generalized, my bad), but people who use their number-crunching to the best of their abilities will always perform the best, assuming they also know when to adapt. And when you wipe enough times at 1% when vying for realm/world first fights, that last oomph could've been the difference.

[Remilia]

And the person who does both performs the best. Let's not generalize -- idiots will always be idiots (I just generalized, my bad), but people who use their number-crunching to the best of their abilities will always perform the best, assuming they also know when to adapt. And when you wipe enough times at 1% when vying for realm/world first fights, that last oomph could've been the difference.

Well yeah. My main point really is, people should use their brain instead of just using numbers all the time.
(World first people be crazy). Pushing the extra number is only needed when you're 'undergeared'. Going off by Paragon during H-Rag anecdote from Jhazrun. The tank was getting 1-2 shotted by an ability they couldn't stop, cause they don't have the gear. Roll by next week, they suddenly have a bit more gear, and tada, they killed him...
Only point really is that in a game where gear matters, that extra 1% doesn't do jack.
And this is where I rant skill base game > gear base game which I hope ESO picks up.

[Nelvardik]

Until everyone starts theorycrafting and optimizing everything and then complaining about a lack of variety.

This game needs to focus heavily on immersion to ensure it doesn't go the way of WoW.

Yeah. The whole game boils down to a WoW clone through and through because it's coated in gimmicks and then is wrapped up in massive contradictions. The Secret World was another attempt at a "build your own class" MMO that showed that most of the abilities and options offered to you are completely wasted because there's a demand for min/maxing.

[vizzle]

Well yeah. My main point really is, people should use their brain instead of just using numbers all the time.
(World first people be crazy). Pushing the extra number is only needed when you're 'undergeared'. Going off by Paragon during H-Rag anecdote from Jhazrun. The tank was getting 1-2 shotted by an ability they couldn't stop, cause they don't have the gear. Roll by next week, they suddenly have a bit more gear, and tada, they killed him...
Only point really is that in a game where gear matters, that extra 1% doesn't do jack.
And this is where I rant skill base game > gear base game which I hope ESO picks up.

The thing is, WoW is both skill based and gear based, and TESO will be too. Any game that has any gear will be; it's just to the extent that people will make it matter that can be controlled. The only way to stop it is not to emphasize cutthroat raiding and large highly competitive PvE environments. PvP is more lenient with stats because it's all human based action and reaction, but PvE will always be measured and controlled, which way is the best way.

I agree that ESO shouldn't have that, but the way to -not- having that is by not having hardcore raiding. PvE content is fine, but nothing like what WoW/Rift/EQ2/whateverotherraidinggame has. As long as a game has gear and stats, and if gear is important enough that people will want to rerun dungeons every week, then the game will always be influenced by both gear/stats and skill. You can be as skilled as you want but if they make stats indepth and if they make the PvE content so competitive, there's going to be theorycrafting.

[Remilia]

I personally don't find EQ based combat really skillful, but that's just a matter of subjectivity now.

I don't really mind a hard PvE, but it's the competitive part that I find making that need to be top notch, can really kill the fun for some people, obviously there are those that like it, I just find it has a bigger backlash than it does contributing. (Might have something to do with the way WoW has conditioned a lot of players into...)

[wombinator04]

The PvP side of the game should have a preset set of gear. But you can only get better gear if you improve your ranking/rating or whatever. I like that style of getting gear upgrades more then grinding tokens or something. Skill rewards you, not time.
Oh but then a bunch of cry babies whine that it's not fair that their terrible and refuse to get better. I forgot about that.

[Valeron]

why does pvp need to be gear based at all

there can be rewards other than gear

[wombinator04]

why does pvp need to be gear based at all

there can be rewards other than gear

I could care less what they do. I just want players that are willing to be good to get rewarded. Which probably won't ever happen again because there's a lot of lazy people who just want everything handed to them. Their entitled apparently.

[Deleted]

I could care less what they do. I just want players that are willing to be good to get rewarded.

yes, but you dont want the same problems with wows pvp to happen here. where new players will find it very hard to catch up, but there does need to be a reward for players.

[blackyfrost]

yes, but you dont want the same problems with wows pvp to happen here. where new players will find it very hard to catch up, but there does need to be a reward for players.

that problem is buffered by a smaller gear gap
the gear gap right now is HUGE and that's the problem, not having to take your lumps. you can't do ANYTHING in life without paying your dues first and that's why a lot of people never do shit. it's hard. it should be hard. you should feel left behind when you're left behind. you should have a way to catch up, but it should damn well hurt to do it

[Remilia]

yes, but you dont want the same problems with wows pvp to happen here. where new players will find it very hard to catch up, but there does need to be a reward for players.

Reward the epeen not the character. Not sure that made sense.

[blackyfrost]

Yeah. The whole game boils down to a WoW clone through and through because it's coated in gimmicks and then is wrapped up in massive contradictions. The Secret World was another attempt at a "build your own class" MMO that showed that most of the abilities and options offered to you are completely wasted because there's a demand for min/maxing.

what is a wow clone? wow didn't create anything they copied their RTS games' lore and EQ's MMO structure
when i hear "wow clone" i know that the person saying it is probably young and probably gets really fucking mad when someone doesn't build wow up. i know they aren't going to progress a conversation because they simply can't

blizzard is known for doing exactly that, taking an existing idea and improving it. about the only thing they created was phasing technology

[Zeek Daniels]

For a game with no cd's its pretty much going to be spam your strongest ability and slot fillers that fit your playstyle. I was playing Neverwinter last weekend and although that game had CD's it was basically spam my strongest abilites while i could then wait for them to be availible again, in my case it was maximizing my stealth time for a longer duration and i built my playstyle around that.

Now with TESO its pretty much slot strong abilites and spam away until you run out of magicka/stamina. The downside to this is you leave yourself voulnerable , without stam you cant dodge or block. and without magic you cant heal or use defensive abilities when you need them. Now typically a dps could care less about how vulnerable they make themselves as they will expect the healer to heal them through most things that dont one shot them. So once the highest damage builds get found everyone gonna copy pasta.

[blackyfrost]

For a game with no cd's its pretty much going to be spam your strongest ability and slot fillers that fit your playstyle. I was playing Neverwinter last weekend and although that game had CD's it was basically spam my strongest abilites while i could then wait for them to be availible again, in my case it was maximizing my stealth time for a longer duration and i built my playstyle around that.

Now with TESO its pretty much slot strong abilites and spam away until you run out of magicka/stamina. The downside to this is you leave yourself voulnerable , without stam you cant dodge or block. and without magic you cant heal or use defensive abilities when you need them. Now typically a dps could care less about how vulnerable they make themselves as they will expect the healer to heal them through most things that dont one shot them. So once the highest damage builds get found everyone gonna copy pasta.

it's gonna be a lot like "active mitigation tanking" or playing a hunter/rogue/feral

you can't go balls to the wall the whole time but capping anything is probably going to be a dps loss. i personally like this
but in wow right now, mana users just spam away and blow cds as quickly as possible, i haven't ran out of mana in years