[Megathread] Elder Scrolls Online

[wynterlyn]

I've always felt that the "rolling alts is intended to experience the full game/see all the content" argument is bullshit. I don't want to play another character, I want to play my own. If I want to roll an alt, it's to play that class, not to finally be able to see all the damn content.

Focusing on alt-play as content, something SWTOR did for a while with its legacy system, is almost as lazy development as focusing on daily quests (which is the lowest of low when it comes to content development). Alts are called alts for a reason, because they're not "your" character. They're alternate characters, optional characters.

The only time it can work is if you actually do provide enough content to make an alt playthrough almost 100% unique, and if there's another compelling reason to do so (SWTOR's storylines, except the game didn't have different leveling paths).

SWTOR lacked a very compelling end game which led to boredom for a majority of people. PVP was bugged and PVE sucked. Its similar to what we have in Guild Wars 2 currently. Lack of end game. I cannot see it happening and I am pretty sure it will not happen in TES only cause these guys are experience and have a record of delivering content that players can spend hours on end engaged in.

There are players that have literally spent 300+ hours in Skyrim and Morrowind and have still not experienced everything the game has to offer excluding the DLCs.

You are contradicting yourself now in those last few lines. This is exactly what ZOS are doing. They are offering different story lines and levelling paths for those that want to experience the other side and only if they want to. They ain't forced. So you are warm to the idea of something similar. And you just confirmed it.

P.S Now tell me what you said and what they are doing isn't the same thing are you just intent on having one sided arguments?

[Wynnyelle]

I really can't imagine people already coming to baseless assumptions without them even clarifying their point of view. It makes me wonder if people on here can even understand english. They ain't saying its going to be permanently locked. They have hinted numerous times that they plan on unlocking regions during upcoming expansions. For the time being and from a design point of view they feel like regions need to be locked to have every player immersed in their Faction and actually feel there is a war going on.

And again you ain't forced to level alts. You do it if you want to. Also if any of you clueless folk played any of the previous RPGs, Which I can guarantee from your ignorance have not then you should know that they amount of hours and content that is there in their games is simply mind blowing and blows most MMOs and RPGs out. And I would expect the same dedication and commitment to their MMO so I expect a very active end game for players.

You act like because we want to be able to explore the world in its entirety, that automatically means that we want the game to be WoW 2.0. You've basically been saying that people who disagree with this decision are WoW fanboys, and yet you don't dare disagree with anything related to ESO design. There is nothing immersive about being locked out of a zone. It's just poor and lazy design, and there isn't any sort of logical reason for it (even if it did help immersion, that's a stupid reason to do it. Gameplay > immersion). I don't want to roll an alt. I want to play on my main character, and it's stupid that I can't explore a pretty large chunk of the game world because of that. So go ahead and call me ignorant for disagreeing with you, but that doesn't make you right.

[wynterlyn]

You act like because we want to be able to explore the world in its entirety, that automatically means that we want the game to be WoW 2.0. You've basically been saying that people who disagree with this decision are WoW fanboys, and yet you don't dare disagree with anything related to ESO design. There is nothing immersive about being locked out of a zone. It's just poor and lazy design, and there isn't any sort of logical reason for it (even if it did help immersion, that's a stupid reason to do it. Gameplay > immersion). I don't want to roll an alt. I want to play on my main character, and it's stupid that I can't explore a pretty large chunk of the game world because of that. So go ahead and call me ignorant for disagreeing with you, but that doesn't make you right.

I don't disagree yet cause we have no information and have not heard their side yet. Do you know something the rest of us don't besides their intention to lock certain zones? Well neither does it make you right and neither are you entitled to get what you want cause they ain't going to do it any different just because some entitled person thinks he should get it his way.

Like I said. They have not explained or said much about it. All we know as of now is that they are locking certain zones. After gone into detail? Have they even explained their design? Sometimes you have to understand the game developers don't do certain things or do certain things because they feel as a group that they would like us to enjoy a game the way they feel right.

If you want a game to be designed the way you feel right then by all means design your own freaking game and do it your way. No one will tell you any different.


P.S And BTW Edgecrusher, I am still waiting for you to clarify your last point.

[Edge-]

And this is where we calm down.

90% of the discussion in this thread is hypothetical, because realistically we don't know shit about the game. We can infer a decent amount, but our knowledge base is still very limited.

If certain individuals continue to post aggressively and disrespect others, they will be dealt with.

[wynterlyn]

And this is where we calm down.

90% of the discussion in this thread is hypothetical, because realistically we don't know shit about the game. We can infer a decent amount, but our knowledge base is still very limited.

If certain individuals continue to post aggressively and disrespect others, they will be dealt with.

Well I would honestly like you to further explain what you said in the last sentence in your last post. Isn't what you said and what ZOS goals are exactly the same?

This is what you said word to word, "The only time it can work is if you actually do provide enough content to make an alt playthrough almost 100% unique, and if there's another compelling reason to do so (SWTOR's storylines, except the game didn't have different leveling paths)."

[Johnnypockets37]

I mean... Why cant they allow you to see all the zones with only quests in your factions controlled zone. I don't see the need to restrict zones because people assume they do not want to do the work to add quests. Besides if these factions are at "war" then going into another factions territory to ransack cities and have World PvP will be fun. As an alliance player I would run through the barrens to raid Orgrimmar and not see one quest, and it didn't bother me.

It's a big turn off knowing I will never be able to explore the entire continent.

[Tabbycat]

The faction lock is a hotly contested issue on the Bethesda ESO forums. A lot of people are upset about it. But so far ZOS hasn't given any indication that they are going to change it before launch. It's always possible they could. They have already made some changes with the game based on feedback.

People will either decide it's a deal breaker for them and choose not to play.

Or they'll deal with it and play the game.

I decided I wanted to play anyway. Since I can make alts to explore the other areas I will. Would I prefer to be able to travel all of Tamriel? Of course. Would I be in absolute heaven if I could travel through all of Nirn? You bet. Especially considering we haven't been able to in the single player series.

[Flaks]

No one cares when you quit WoW. The thing is that you are expecting TES to be WoW 2 is more than enough and shows your ignorance. And you still have not confirmed if you have played any of the earlier TES RPGS. So lets please clear that up cause I am really curious.

No one has given the slightest inkling that they want ES:O to be anything like WoW.

What they HAVE said is that ES:O is taking out the very essence of Elder Scrolls by putting this zone lock on factions. The argument Vizzle has been making is entirely 110% based on Elder Scrolls and has nothing whatsoever to do with the things people might be used to from WoW.

It's fine to not have quests and things be available in faction specific zones for other factions. It isn't fine for them to be completely inaccessible by other factions.

[wynterlyn]

I mean... Why cant they allow you to see all the zones with only quests in your factions controlled zone. I don't see the need to restrict zones because people assume they do not want to do the work to add quests. Besides if these factions are at "war" then going into another factions territory to ransack cities and have World PvP will be fun. As an alliance player I would run through the barrens to raid Orgrimmar and not see one quest, and it didn't bother me.

It's a big turn off knowing I will never be able to explore the entire continent.

Well quite frankly the way their design works currently there are no PVP realms. Its all one mega server. How are those that wouldn't want to PVP deal with it when players start crossing enemy territory and gank lower levels?

There are probably a small minority of people that actually enjoy WPVP and I do enjoy WPVP in its true sense but quite literally there is no WPVP. People only gank and proceed to harass. Now for those that are coming from RPG games such as Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim and have no experience in previous MMOs will not know how to handle such situation. They have looked at the bigger picture and felt that it was worth not having WPVP and focusing PVP in Cyrodiil. This way no one can come to the forums and whine about being interrupted when questing. So those that want to WPVP and PVP can head to Cyrodiil.

And also don't forget, you can have WPVP in Cyrodiil. Cyrodiil is amazinly huge and a zone by itself. So all those that would like to get into organised or fair WPVP can head over there.

---------- Post added 2013-01-25 at 05:39 AM ----------

No one has given the slightest inkling that they want ES:O to be anything like WoW.

What they HAVE said is that ES:O is taking out the very essence of Elder Scrolls by putting this zone lock on factions. The argument Vizzle has been making is entirely 110% based on Elder Scrolls and has nothing whatsoever to do with the things people might be used to from WoW.

It's fine to not have quests and things be available in faction specific zones for other factions. It isn't fine for them to be completely inaccessible by other factions.

BTW he still has not confirmed if he has played any of the previous Elder Scrolls RPGs and I am still waiting on edgecrusher to explain her post.

P.S Its quite sad really that no one would will even stand up and explain themselves when they are caught out. If edgecrusher will not explain her post would someone else mind making sense regarding her earlier post.

---------- Post added 2013-01-25 at 05:52 AM ----------

I've always felt that the "rolling alts is intended to experience the full game/see all the content" argument is bullshit. I don't want to play another character, I want to play my own. If I want to roll an alt, it's to play that class, not to finally be able to see all the damn content.

Focusing on alt-play as content, something SWTOR did for a while with its legacy system, is almost as lazy development as focusing on daily quests (which is the lowest of low when it comes to content development). Alts are called alts for a reason, because they're not "your" character. They're alternate characters, optional characters.

The only time it can work is if you actually do provide enough content to make an alt playthrough almost 100% unique, and if there's another compelling reason to do so (SWTOR's storylines, except the game didn't have different leveling paths).

That is what he had to say. Now would someone mind explaining to me, if he will not, how is there any difference from what he states and what ZOS are currently doing?

[Edge-]

That is what he had to say. Now would someone mind explaining to me, if he will not, how is there any difference from what he states and what ZOS are currently doing?

Hi hypothetical and hi general discussion of design philosophies. How are you doing. I'm doing well, thanks for asking. I'd like to remind you two that I like discussing you both a lot, sometimes you'll pop up into game specific discussions, especially when we don't have full knowledge about how a game will function. I hope you two enjoy yourselves!

What I'm trying to say, is you need to calm the fuck down.

[Deleted]

I can understand why some people want to see the entire world of Tamriel on one character alone. I also understand why some people prefer immersion over freedom of travel. (I used an example earlier of saying; Assume you're a Breton and you're sent to kill a Nord who's had the nerve of crossing the boundries. On your way there, however, you come across 30 nords who run around freely making the quest stupid and immersionbreaking.)

While I think it would be cool to have locked zones to help provide better narrative and more compelling stories, which I rigerously imagine would be ALOT easier to deliver when you don't have to account for enemies trotting around either able to attack you, your faction NPC's or even without being able to attack anything but just lolling around or even worse, trolling.

I believe in the best of people. I believe people have the best intentions untill proven otherwise, but if EQ1, SW:TOR, WoW and GW2 has taught me ANYTHING, it is that there will ALWAYS be rectums running around trying to piss off or ruin other peoples fun. Will that still happen with teammates? Most likely, your faction allies could also be just like that, but atleast you can talk to them, ignore them or hope they just move on because there's stuff for them to do right around the corner anyways so they might get tired of ruining your day faster.

A compromise I can potentially see, I base on the theory that the arguement I've seen alot is true. If we assume people want to see Tamriel on one character but does not care about quests, they just want to see it. What if they made it so every other factions land is accessible but phased so only yourself and your allies from your faction could see it? It would allow anyone to see anything on their main character and would not disturb or disrupt immersion or quality of gaming by the local players as in the 'real' world everything would be fine despite whatever chaos someone else would be doing in the 'alternative' world where only their faction can enter it?

I mean, I know that would take months of intense development time, but it would be a compromise that could work in -my- eyes. What's you guys thought about that half-way meet, then? =)

[Deleted]

If they were to remove the zone lock I hope they wouldn't allow pvp in the zones. It would suck if the most played faction is just killing quest givers and stuff on your side. I know it doesn't make sense to disallow pvp from story point if view. But I'm not really that bothered by it. How would they be locked anyway? Instanced and only allow certain races?

[Deleted]

Why is it a positive thing to force a playstyle on people who don't play that way? Some people aren't alt people and hate being forced to do that. It would be so easy to support both playstyles instead of killing off one for no reason other than bullshit artificial game longevity which won't work

(Besides the whole discussion of World PvP...)

If you make them unable to visit the other area it adds to the immersion of that faction. For example, in SWTOR you cannot visit the starting planets of other faction. You can't access certain starships and planets, you can't access the enemies fleet (its also an exact mirror of yours, both factions must've hired the same architect and interior designer ). It makes it unique, like a private space in a club.

Also, you say some people aren't alt people. You're a minority in that one . If the content for alt is sophisticated it is essentially a whole new world! If I understand correct, what you'd want to be able to visit the place and then what, look around? In that case sorry, you're suffering from collateral damage. The immersion and unique atmosphere is more important. In WoW, alliance players generally went to (south of) Eastern Kingdoms to level there. Not me, I prefer Kalimdor. Well that means I'm playing alone there, while Elwynn Forest 'n all are filled. And the next time I do make a human and play in Elwynn Forest it isn't new anymore. I already explored it (to decide I prefer Kalimdor).

if this shit did work, SWTOR would be a much bigger success, being the biggest alt game of them all.

Are you willfully ignorant or do you have just absolutely no clue what on Earth you're blabbering about. You never made an alt in SWTOR, did you? If you did, then there are 4 classes (with 4 mirror classes). For each 2 of these classes (+2 mirrors) there's 4 starting planets; unique content. On same faction you can explore and play the other planet, but you don't have to (why WOULD you?!). So that design is till level 8. Its a trick you see in WoW as well: every race has their own starting zone. It gives the player immersion to the class (SWTOR) or race (WoW) they rolled to. After that, you still have quite a lot liberty what to skip. So your second character will have some overlaps in quests, but also can experience new ones. Then you have opposite faction to explore which has NO unique abilities on their classes (they're mirrors) making faction A stronger than B complaints bullshit (racials are also merely cosmetic). But the uniqueness lies in the different quests. Then you have class quests. All in all, the replayability factor is about 2. It is actually 8 on the class quest and I know people who want to complete all 8 of them. Me, personally, don't like to do all those same quests over and over again just for a few class quests.

SWTOR was marketed as a "WoW killer" but it had bugs, the end-game was non-existent or shit. The voice acting in quests didn't work out well in multiplayer, making it essentially more of a solo player MMORPG. Due to subscription model people zerged through it. If the developers didn't take this phenomenon into account they were probably like why are they all leaving, they were enjoying it so much in december. Its a cultural cancer from sub-based WoW because players are used in WoW to play like this: expecting grinds, zerg through everything, to reach sophisticated end-game. And yet the casual WoW player (no that is not the player who raids twice a week, those are already far more non-casual) is still leveling and exploring. If SWTOR simply didn't have the subscription but have microtransactions from start, paid expansion, and B2P (a tried and proven model in the gaming industry!!) people didn't have to zerg through it, and if they then look at /played they'd realize that the unique content they played was worth the 60 EUR.

All in all, I'm not claiming I find it the best design or something, but I do support the above notions as a possibly good game design.

PS: If you never played the goblin starter area because you hate alts you've missed out IMO. Its hilarious.

[Akkep]

Ultima Online saw losses to EQ1, which went on to dominate the market for some years, who revolutionized MMO's by providing a 3d world for players to play in.
EQ1 saw big losses to WoW, which continues to dominate the market, after a mixture of poor development decisions soured a decent chunk of the EQ1 playerbase, and Blizzard introduced a phenomenally well crafted game with their name attached to it.

From those two, it either has to be absolutely mind blowing (the shift from top-down to full 3D worlds) or a combination of a spectacularly designed game launching from a highly reputable developer at a time where the existing "champ" is suffering problems.

Honestly, I'd be surprised if we see another move like this again though. IMO nothing will ever see WoW levels of success again (from a subscription standpoint), but we'll instead of a highly fragmented market with no game being head and shoulders the market leader.

Why you make fact less assumptions, you have absolutely no clue if there will be a new mmo-sub game is superior than wow on everything like wow was to eq1. There always comes new games that beat the top game in every genre. Problem in the mmo market we haven't had any good developer here, bioware was first but they decided to copy wow into details instead of trying to improve the mmo game.
End result was just stale game play and plastic graphic.

[Deleted]

Im the OP in this thread and iv really lost touch with the game recently, I haven't got a clue what features are planned. Maybe it will be a good idea if somebody else can take over the first post in my place (if that's possible) with more information about the game.

[Ihazcakeforu]

OK so ive only just found out about this game (all the banners and ads that were on the home page today).
82 pages is alot to go through but I'm going to start looking through it, ive watched the trailers and gameplay trailer on the website and i think it looks pretty damn good.

Just the first question that popped into my head is will i miss anything if i havent played a Elder Scrolls game before? (like ever), i know that have been a fair few games released so im guessing theres alot of back story i might miss? (not a big lore nerd here, i just play, but i still like to know whats happening and why)

The reason i am most looking forward to this (like i did SWTOR) is because it is new. See i got into WoW in very late TBC so i was behind the eightball ( i eventualyl got the hang of it, but was 'behind' most of the people i played with, they had more gold, more mounts, more max level geared alts). SWTOR was my chance at being there from the start, BUT alas, a few patches in a couldnt stand it.

So here i am looking at another new MMO with the same hope and dreams, what is everyones opinion of how its looking?

[Deleted]

OK so ive only just found out about this game (all the banners and ads that were on the home page today).
82 pages is alot to go through but I'm going to start looking through it, ive watched the trailers and gameplay trailer on the website and i think it looks pretty damn good.

Just the first question that popped into my head is will i miss anything if i havent played a Elder Scrolls game before? (like ever), i know that have been a fair few games released so im guessing theres alot of back story i might miss? (not a big lore nerd here, i just play, but i still like to know whats happening and why)

The reason i am most looking forward to this (like i did SWTOR) is because it is new. See i got into WoW in very late TBC so i was behind the eightball ( i eventualyl got the hang of it, but was 'behind' most of the people i played with, they had more gold, more mounts, more max level geared alts). SWTOR was my chance at being there from the start, BUT alas, a few patches in a couldnt stand it.

So here i am looking at another new MMO with the same hope and dreams, what is everyones opinion of how its looking?

Hey there, Ihazcakeforu!

You're in luck. To answer your question regarding weither or not it's important that you played the previous games, Bethesda and ZeniMax Online decided to make a smart move. While the Elder Scrolls lore is long and filled with gems and amazing stories, ESO is set one thousand years before all that. It serves as an excellent purpose in several ways. You see, old fans of the series - or even those who only just got interrested in Oblivion or Skyrim - will have tonnes of memories of books they read in the SPRPG's that they can relate back to the MMO, visit places before they became big, ruins before they were.. well, ruins and basically explore the entire continent of Tamriel (The game world) before the events they have already experienced unfolded.

Another great purpose is, that players like you who're not up to date with the lore or don't have interrest in reading zounds of novels worth of story and lore, can step right into the game anyways with no background knowladge and still enjoy both learning and experiencing how the world feels and evolves. So no, you will not be crippled by lack of prior knowladge to the world you'll be entering (Although reading the basics atleast would be a good suggestion so you'll atleast know who you're teaming up with and why ).

ESO will likely provide exactly that 'new beginning' you're looking for. We can only hope it'll be better than SW:TOR, but for all the SW fanbase and such who still play and enjoy SW:TOR, the biggest and most crushing fact for many ardent SW fans was, it was'nt KTOR. Everything was diffrent, nothing felt the same. That killed a large fanbase. Then the bugs, the playstyle, railroad shooter etc. etc. all helped along to make SW:TOR a niché market product at best.

TES has a horde of fans. Many will most likely shun the game for not being SPRPG, but I believe a fair majority will try it and most likely like or love it. If it can provide even a fraction of the longevity and attention the most recent installments like Morrowind and Skyrim recieved, and be able to deliver the same quality of narrative and story, I believe ESO will be set for a good, long lifetime.

I'll stress this point though; It will NOT be a WoW killer or detroner. Nothing will so don't expect that. If you can manage to keep your hype down and just look forward to exploring a wonderful world potentially with your friends, delivered by a studio (Or studios) that are known for quality and immersion, you're most likely in for a genuine treat.

Hope that answered your questions! =)

[papajohn4]

I don't understand how locked zones(if there be any) or handholding storylines are better for immersion than a sandbox game which provide ultimate freedom. Skyrim for example, you could call it a sandbox game if it was MMO and it has the ultimate immersion without locked zones.

Does people became less and less creative themeselves and need cinematics, voice acting and handholding storylines to get immersed in a world?where is the imagination and creativity?In my opinion there isn't a higher feel of immersion than a sandbox game. Games must just give you the tools and sand to build in. You will make your story, you will chose what you wanna do in the world..obvious and clear goals in a "on rails" MMO can only break immersion.

[Deleted]

I don't understand how locked zones(if there be any) or handholding storylines are better for immersion than a sandbox game which provide ultimate freedom. Skyrim for example, you could call it a sandbox game if it was MMO and it has the ultimate immersion without locked zones.

Does people became less and less creative themeselves and need cinematics, voice acting and handholding storylines to get immersed in a world?where is the imagination and creativity?In my opinion there isn't a higher feel of immersion than a sandbox game. Games must just give you the tools and sand to build in. You will make your story, you will chose what you wanna do in the world..obvious and clear goals in a "on rails" MMO can only break immersion.

I think you're turning a feather into five hens.

It's not like the game won't be sandbox. It'll be three diffrent sandboxes on the playground instead of one, and you'll not have other kids throwing sand at you or trampling down your sandcastles. I'm not sure what you're talking about with handholding, you'll have to be more specific about that. And Skyrim is a SPRPG, not an MMO, it did not need boundries but if you insist on being formal, travel past the edge of your screen for me. Come back when you hit the wall hard enough to realize every game has some boundries. (It's a bad comparrison, but you started ;D)

Go read up on some news and media about the game. And hey, the best news, if you try the game out and don't like it, you won't have to play it =) People who complain about WoW stuff has some merit to it, they've already invested so much time and effort into their characters. This is a new game which is even barely ready for a closed beta yet where segments will be tested over time.

If you have constructive feedback, head to the official forums and give it to 'em. If you just want to discuss the game without preliminary bias, go ahead and do so here, because there's tonnes of interresting stuff in the past 82 pages. But having a gripe so badly with a system in progress just seems odd to me. We can speculate, but I'd tone down the generalization of people who like the idea of divided content for relevance if it's provided right. But I don't know if it will, I have'nt played it yet, have you? Excactly.

Besides, reading through your post again, you should check the official website aswell as several of the subjects have been touched already (Like the avoidance of railing etc.)

- Kasperio.

[Darksoldierr]

How about we wait till open beta starts.

So you know, we have actual information about the topic, we want to discuss.