SWTOR: State of the game at this point

[Solzan Nemesis]

I am playing it over WoW, so BioWare is doing something right. Plus I love the cross faction talking. Blizz would never let us do that. I also like how BioWare give me everything they said they would.

[Tarien]

See, there you go again. You can't say the majority of the player base wants it. Someone else said the majority DOESN'T want it and someone told him he couldn't say that because it's probably a vocal minority. You can't prove one way or the other what the majority want based off what people are saying in the forums. All you can say is some people want it, some people don't.

I'm going to go ahead and make the fairly logical leap and say that enough people wanted it that several major MMOs have introduced it or are planning to, enough usually meaning a situation where there are more people want it than don't, another word for this situation is majority. Logic and common sense are your friends in life, apply them where ever possible.

[voidillusion]

This majority wants/doesnt want bshit is pointless. Unless a census was done no trustworthy conclusion could be obtained.

Personaly i don't like lfg, it's convinient sure, but i don't like it. If a server population is healthy lfg is just a lame excuse to remove the MMO from MMO-RPG.

And yes it's lazy, not calling lazy to anyone in specific, but the tool itself promotes lazyness. Just so you don't spend 5 mins talking to a few ppl getting a group together. Lazyness at its best.

[Lord Blackmore]

There's your keyword. GOLD standard. Meaning, not standard, but above it to achieve the standard for gold. And the main reason people clamored for custom UI in swtor wasn't because other people had it, or that wanted to make their own thing, it's because the default UI was awful and did not scale will to monitor sizes.

First, you know exactly what I meant. IMO, YMMV, a customizable UI should be a -standard- feature of any MMO. And don't make assumptions as to why people wanted a customizable UI. I can say for a fact that I heard a lot of complaints about SWTOR's UI not being
customizable. I fully expected SWTOR's UI to be customizable when subscribed. Why? Because, IMO, YMMV, it's a standard feature.

The reasons you listed is what makes it a valid argument. The fact that people don't want it.

The fact that some people don't want it doesn't have anything to do with whether it should be standard or not. As I said, if you disagree, fine. But that doesn't make either one of us right.

Once again, that's the point. We don't know if the majority are for or against it, we just know there are vocal minorites. But the fact that of the vocal people there are just as many for it as against it, and against it as for it, means that it can't be considered standard. Not everyone WANTS it in their game. Standards must be agreed upon by everyone, or at least the majority, or it's not very standard.

No it isn't a "fact" that there are just as many people for it as against it. People commenting on message boards is not any sort of reliable indicator. Fosredar said "there is a bigger majority" against LFG. That's an unprovable statement.

Let me reiterate something. *I* think these kinds of things should be standard features. That's my opinion. Not everyone will ever agree on an objective set of standard MMO features. Again, it's my opinion. It's not a fact.

---------- Post added 2012-05-05 at 05:51 PM ----------

T
Personaly i don't like lfg, it's convinient sure, but i don't like it. If a server population is healthy lfg is just a lame excuse to remove the MMO from MMO-RPG.

I can have a great MMO experience on the social side and not spend one nanosecond asking people to join a group. People use LFG as an excuse for insulting people who would rather do something else instead of wasting time either waiting for people to show up or asking people to join a group.

And yes it's lazy, not calling lazy to anyone in specific, but the tool itself promotes lazyness. Just so you don't spend 5 mins talking to a few ppl getting a group together. Lazyness at its best.

No. It's not objectively lazy. For some people it's laziness. For others, like me, it takes out the hassle of having to fart around finding groups. I'd rather spend my time doing other things that trying to put a group together. Especially when the game can do a much better job of finding people than I can.

[Redblade]

No. It's not objectively lazy. For some people it's laziness. For others, like me, it takes out the hassle of having to fart around finding groups. I'd rather spend my time doing other things that trying to put a group together. Especially when the game can do a much better job of finding people than I can.

The issue is that one side has to win, both sides can't have what they want and the one that gets what it wants gets it at the expense of the players on the opposite side of the fence, hence why LFG and addons are such polarized arguments. Features like UI customization is much easier as they can be introduced without affecting people not wanting it and as such is much easier to argue as a potential standard as well.

[Koalachan]

I'm going to go ahead and make the fairly logical leap and say that enough people wanted it that several major MMOs have introduced it or are planning to, enough usually meaning a situation where there are more people want it than don't, another word for this situation is majority. Logic and common sense are your friends in life, apply them where ever possible.

You don't need a majority for enough people to want something. You just need enough. You can make an arguement that if 10% want something than it justifies putting it in. That's not the majority wanting it, that's enough people wanting it. If 10% of a game unsubscirbes, and of those 50% cited not having a dungeon finder as the reason they left, I would bet even money that the game would add a dungeon finder, even though 90% are still playing and only 5% wanted it. If devs can do something to bring more people in, they will do it. It has nothing to do with the majority. It has to do with getting more players. That's what logic tells us.

[Alilei32]

There are servers all around the world. People in other countries who play the late shift for them roll on American servers so that they will have people to play with. Because you are unwilling to do the same you want to force your beliefs on everyone else? If you are playing when your server is the deadest, then find a server that is active during your play time.

And here you go forcing your beliefs on people who want or need a LFG system. Why should I be forced to find a new server just to be able to group? Its not like Bioware will force people to use a cross server LFG system. If you dont like it dont use it but people who cant get groups shouldnt be punished because Bioware didnt think things through when they released the game.

[Redblade]

And here you go forcing your beliefs on people who want or need a LFG system. Why should I be forced to find a new server just to be able to group? Its not like Bioware will force people to use a cross server LFG system. If you dont like it dont use it but people who cant get groups shouldnt be punished because Bioware didnt think things through when they released the game.

Because you are 1 and the rest of the games players are in the hundred of thousands, even if you include every player playing in off hours I suspect they wouldn't even amount to 1%, I usually dislike the majority argument but in this case it's the obvious one.

[Alilei32]

Because you are 1 and the rest of the games players are in the hundred of thousands, even if you include every player playing in off hours I suspect they wouldn't even amount to 1%, I usually dislike the majority argument but in this case it's the obvious one.

So again I pose the question. Why must offpeak hour players suffer or players on dead realms? I can log into WoW at any time during the day and get a group within 5 minutes as a healer/tank, same with Rift no matter what the server's population is. Why should this game be any different?

I enjoy the game and I am not quitting unless they just flat out refuse to add a cross server LFG system then I will go play GW2 or something else until the time comes when one is added. Then I will come back.

[Redblade]

So again I pose the question. Why must offpeak hour players suffer or players on dead realms? I can log into WoW at any time during the day and get a group within 5 minutes as a healer/tank, same with Rift no matter what the server's population is. Why should this game be any different?

I played Rift and I had to wait hours some times playing in the middle of the night, and why should the rest of the players suffer because you don't care to roll on a server more fitting to your play time? There are people that don't want a LFG tool same as there are the once that do, one gets it at the expense of the other, you just fail to see why you should be on the loosing side.

[Captain N]

Subbed swtor for 5 hours went into pvp at 50 and unsubbed.Such unbalanced getting 2 shooted in full pvp gir on my bh.

Awww you lost a few games and felt the need to cry on the forums about it.

[Tarien]

You don't need a majority for enough people to want something. You just need enough. You can make an arguement that if 10% want something than it justifies putting it in. That's not the majority wanting it, that's enough people wanting it. If 10% of a game unsubscirbes, and of those 50% cited not having a dungeon finder as the reason they left, I would bet even money that the game would add a dungeon finder, even though 90% are still playing and only 5% wanted it. If devs can do something to bring more people in, they will do it. It has nothing to do with the majority. It has to do with getting more players. That's what logic tells us.

I'm sure we can make cases for what people who don't speak up want and invent all kinds of numbers, but at the end of the day of the people who have an opinion and give it it seems more people ask for it than don't otherwise it wouldn't be in games would it? It's also a feature that is becoming quite common. If you don't want to consider it something that should be standard, well that's your right.

Honestly though reading some of these posts this evening I think people need to take SWTOR out of the equation and think things through a little more dispassionately. Imagine if you were tasked with deciding what features a new MMO would or would not have at launch, and why would you include them or leave them out. Surely a customisable UI and a combat log should make it it? And yet because you feel you need to defend SWTOR you would argue against things that if SWTOR were taken out of the equation I think you would agree are reasonable features to include at launch.

People need to take themselves out of the process too. For example, I personally would not bother with a LFG for all the reasons listed above, I always find people for runs and I would rather the incentive rewards if any were just tacked onto killing the last boss, which I pretty much always achieve. But, I appreciate that there are people on low population servers, people with few friends, people who log in and no friends are online (happened to me a few times), people who are inexperienced, have only just hit max level and have poor gear, have limited hours to play, who play at weird times due to RL commitments, and a whole host of other situations where the LFG tool is beneficial and so why would I deny them that? If I don't want to play with strangers I just get a group of guildies/friends and go, my life is no different with or without the tool.

[Lord Blackmore]

Tarien, if I were determining features for a new MMO, I'd look at the features in the most successful MMOs and look to include those. I have no doubt Bioware did that, but maybe ran out of time to include some of those features in their rush to get the game launched.

[Koalachan]

I'm sure we can make cases for what people who don't speak up want and invent all kinds of numbers, but at the end of the day of the people who have an opinion and give it it seems more people ask for it than don't otherwise it wouldn't be in games would it? It's also a feature that is becoming quite common. If you don't want to consider it something that should be standard, well that's your right.

Honestly though reading some of these posts this evening I think people need to take SWTOR out of the equation and think things through a little more dispassionately. Imagine if you were tasked with deciding what features a new MMO would or would not have at launch, and why would you include them or leave them out. Surely a customisable UI and a combat log should make it it? And yet because you feel you need to defend SWTOR you would argue against things that if SWTOR were taken out of the equation I think you would agree are reasonable features to include at launch.

People need to take themselves out of the process too. For example, I personally would not bother with a LFG for all the reasons listed above, I always find people for runs and I would rather the incentive rewards if any were just tacked onto killing the last boss, which I pretty much always achieve. But, I appreciate that there are people on low population servers, people with few friends, people who log in and no friends are online (happened to me a few times), people who are inexperienced, have only just hit max level and have poor gear, have limited hours to play, who play at weird times due to RL commitments, and a whole host of other situations where the LFG tool is beneficial and so why would I deny them that? If I don't want to play with strangers I just get a group of guildies/friends and go, my life is no different with or without the tool.

Once again, them implementing something in the game does not mean MORE people want it. It means ENOUGH people want it. That's the only point I am trying to make. Personally, I don't care one way or another if it is in. However, for every person I see wanting it, I see another not wanting it, and you can not merely dismiss either argument just because you don't want to listen to it, and them adding or not adding does not mean there is more on one side or the other. It merely means there are enough who want it that they are justifying adding it. That is all, no more, no less.

---------- Post added 2012-05-05 at 06:49 PM ----------

And here you go forcing your beliefs on people who want or need a LFG system. Why should I be forced to find a new server just to be able to group? Its not like Bioware will force people to use a cross server LFG system. If you dont like it dont use it but people who cant get groups shouldnt be punished because Bioware didnt think things through when they released the game.

The difference is you are forcing yourself and causing them to change to accommodate you. They are not forcing you to change, however you can easily change yourself if you are so devoted as it is slightly harder on you, but far easier on everyone else. I am not forcing my beliefs on you, I am offering suggestions that would solve your problem, and showing that they do not NEED to add a LFG, you simply WANT them to add an LFG. And on that note, as I pointed out previously, let's think about it for a second. If there is no incentive, i.e. reward "forcing" you to use LFG over not using it, people will not use it. If they are not using it, instead of you complaining about sitting on fleet you will complain about how you have 2 hour queues and that is all your play time and that they should offer a reward to people for using LFG so that you do not need to wait as long, thus forcing people to use the LFG because if there is a reward for using it than people will feel the need to use it.

[DetectiveJohnKimble]

You don't need a majority for enough people to want something. You just need enough. You can make an arguement that if 10% want something than it justifies putting it in. That's not the majority wanting it, that's enough people wanting it. If 10% of a game unsubscirbes, and of those 50% cited not having a dungeon finder as the reason they left, I would bet even money that the game would add a dungeon finder, even though 90% are still playing and only 5% wanted it. If devs can do something to bring more people in, they will do it. It has nothing to do with the majority. It has to do with getting more players. That's what logic tells us.

Yes, we can mess around all day debating how many people "want" LFG. Their point essentially still stands if you change it to "The majority of players are fine with LFG."

Since BW is planning on implementing LFG, the number of players who want LFG is probably > the number of players who don't want it (obviously, you can subtract the people who don't care from both sides).

[Koalachan]

Yes, we can mess around all day debating how many people "want" LFG. Their point essentially still stands if you change it to "The majority of players are fine with LFG."

Since BW is planning on implementing LFG, the number of players who want LFG is probably > the number of players who don't want it (obviously, you can subtract the people who don't care from both sides).

Again, that's saying the majority, when as someone else pro-lfg pointed out to an anti-lfg, you can not prove majority. There for it has nothing to do with wether more want it or not, it is simply ENOUGH want it, regardless of how many DON'T want it.

[Redblade]

Yes, we can mess around all day debating how many people "want" LFG. Their point essentially still stands if you change it to "The majority of players are fine with LFG."

Since BW is planning on implementing LFG, the number of players who want LFG is probably > the number of players who don't want it (obviously, you can subtract the people who don't care from both sides).

How many people want or doesn't want has is of no importance, it's a calculated risk from the developers side, if 25% wants it and 25% doesn't want it and the other 50% don't give a shit, out of the 25% that doesn't want it 5% would quit over getting it and out of the 25% that do want it 10% would quit over not getting it then it gets implemented. It's all about retaining subscribers, especially with the big publishers, so in the end you are looking at it from the wrong end, how many would quit over it on either side is the number you would want to figure out.

[Andymion]

My biggest complaint is how my male Jedi Shadow looks terrible. At every stage in the game the armor for that class looks worse then all the others.

[Forsedar]

How many people want or doesn't want has is of no importance, it's a calculated risk from the developers side, if 25% wants it and 25% doesn't want it and the other 50% don't give a shit, out of the 25% that doesn't want it 5% would quit over getting it and out of the 25% that do want it 10% would quit over not getting it then it gets implemented. It's all about retaining subscribers, especially with the big publishers, so in the end you are looking at it from the wrong end, how many would quit over it on either side is the number you would want to figure out.

Everyone looks at it 'from the wrong' end in discussions. You are looking at it from the wrong end of Koala's point, and they are looking at it from the wrong end of your point. You seem so hellbent to be right that you are missing the sole reason this entire thread exists.

Any thoughts on this? I think we need to take the good with the bad. I think Bioware made some very novice mistakes, but at the same time they're willing to learn from those mistakes and considerably less bloody-mindedness than other developers.

From the OP.

[Redblade]

Everyone looks at it 'from the wrong' end in discussions. You are looking at it from the wrong end of Koala's point, and they are looking at it from the wrong end of your point. You seem so hellbent to be right that you are missing the sole reason this entire thread exists.



From the OP.

Dude, you really have to stop reading in to much to what I say and draw some conclusions ending up putting words in my mouth, my comment was based on their discussion and had nothing to do with the OP nor do I disagree with Koala's position.