Dwarves are EVIL.

[Mercadi]

Well, before you do archaeology you need to have some ruins. If there aren't - why not blow up some nearby settlement? It's only logical if you are passionate about things you do.

[Kalcheus]

Well, before you do archaeology you need to have some ruins. If there aren't - why not blow up some nearby settlement? It's only logical if you are passionate about things you do.

Or think about it like this: if you dig up all the ruins now, what will future generations have to dig up? By destroying settlements now you're ensuring a bright archaeological future for tomorrow!

[Scummer]

Their actions were stupid but not evil.
But compared to the other races this is very minor stuff. They went about it the wrong way, but they only needed the land for excavation and not for any military purpose (although this changed in Cata with the war) which when compared to other races just slaughtering each other left and right for no good reason.

Haves Dwarves actually been digging for gold as of late? Iirc most if not all excavations are for artifact rather than gold these days. Also a certain member of this origination helped stop Deathwing blowing up Azeroth from Uldum.

[Flaks]

I think this is a rebuttal to that "Orcs are pure Evil" bs thread that popped up on the official forums. If this wasn't a video game I'd wanna punch those people in the face for their illogical and biggoted views. Something tells me that they view other races in real life the same way though.

[Deleted]

However OP, unlike the orcs, who also invaded enemy lands for greed when peace was applied so to say, when someone tried to reason the conflict between dwarves and tauren and dwarves and orcs, the dwarves accepted. They accepted for tauren to monitor the Mulgore excavation, and they accepted to leave Alterac Valley (which is why you fight them as Horde outside and why the Frostwolves don't participate in the war, because they have nothing to gain anymore that they want).

And goblins are all the same, and they breed like cockroaches. If you see one just kill it, if not tomorrow there might be 10 of them.

[Deleted]

However OP, unlike the orcs, who also invaded enemy lands for greed when peace was applied so to say, when someone tried to reason the conflict between dwarves and tauren and dwarves and orcs, the dwarves accepted. They accepted for tauren to monitor the Mulgore excavation, and they accepted to leave Alterac Valley (which is why you fight them as Horde outside and why the Frostwolves don't participate in the war, because they have nothing to gain anymore that they want).

And goblins are all the same, and they breed like cockroaches. If you see one just kill it, if not tomorrow there might be 10 of them.

Or maybe 'cause they were enemies or something and for economic reasons. 'unno.

[Deleted]

Half of your points are your own personal opinion, such as the dwarven district.

<<Born to be dwarf.

[Deleted]

Half of your points are your own personal opinion, such as the dwarven district.

<<Born to be dwarf.

You poor, poor person. Think of the ridicule you've had to endure based on your height IRL.

[ijffdrie]

Implying people from another planet have a claim. It doesn't even matter if they are "peaceful", they arrived with a bloodthirsty horde into a land which they had even less claim to than Dwarves.

Actually, at the time the frostwolves took the land, the horde, which banished them to the valley, had a deal with the kingdom of alterac.

Middle Earth dwarf women are mentioned as having long grizzly beards comparable to those of the men. So grizzly are their beards that they almost always looked like men. Which eventualy lead to people believing dwarf women dont even exist and that dwarves simply sprung out from the ground.

However it was stated that very few Azerothian dwarf women grow beards and that to a male dwarf looks hella hawt. *gag*

Well, there is your reason right there. They don't have enough "hot" women, so have to show their manliness by extending their kingdom.

Breaking news! Race/faction I don't like is evil! More at 11.

Wait, when did I ever say I didn't like the dwarves? I love warcraft dwarves. They're one of the well developed, most interesting species of fantasy dwarves

The Forsaken attacked Arathi Basin during a time of peace, and for what? To cut off the humans from their allies. The Orcs attacked Ashenvale during a time of peace, and for what? Wood. If you want to judge every race by the actions of a fraction, they're all pretty evil.

The orcs were already in ashenvale when the fighting started, they simply never left. The forsaken are already pretty widely known as evil, so it was kinda pointless to make a thread about them.

The Stormpike Clan live in the Alterac Valleys, of which the 'Alterac Valley' is just one of many. They likely didn't even know the Orcs were there when they began excavation.

But, instead of trying to find a peaceful negotiation, the Orcs just attacked them.

I was joking around the fact that the Alterac Valley backstory gets two completely different explanations in order to make both sides feel justified. One is that the the dwarves were merely here on an archeological expedition that got attacked by the savage bloodthirsty orcs. The other explanation is that the dwarves went to Alterac Valley with the intent to conquer it and purge it of all the sub-humandwarven scum. The problem with this? Both explanations are given by the alliance side.

I think this is a rebuttal to that "Orcs are pure Evil" bs thread that popped up on the official forums. If this wasn't a video game I'd wanna punch those people in the face for their illogical and biggoted views. Something tells me that they view other races in real life the same way though.

Well, more like the "orcs are evil" weekly thread that seems to sprout up here. Generalizing an entire race because of the actions of a number is just silly. The only reason I picked the dwarves was because... well, no one ever talks about the dwarves. Which is a shame, since they're pretty well-developed.

Or maybe 'cause they were enemies or something and for economic reasons. 'unno.

They had a peace agreement and the tauren had never done anything against them. Enemies is a pretty big word. Allies of former enemies is more precise.

Half of your points are your own personal opinion, such as the dwarven district.

I do not think you realize the pure evil that goes into..... REBUILDING A CITY. Or, more specifically, rebuilding stormwind. You see, stormwind was in a pretty sorry state after the second war. It couldn't even afford the workers to rebuild the actual city. However, the dwarves just went ahead and used resources neccesary for construction to build a quarters for themselves. Because of this, the defias were enraged that they didn't get any payment. Because the defias were enraged, they started their rebellion. The rebellion captured Varian Wrynn, resulting in..... THE WORLD OF WARCRAFT COMIC BOOK. Also, it caused the war between the alliance and horde, but thats minor.


Actually, speaking in a more serious manner. Shouldn't there be a frostborn on the council of the Three Four hammers?

[Deleted]

Wait, when did I ever say I didn't like the dwarves? I love warcraft dwarves. They're one of the well developed, most interesting species of fantasy dwarves

Your standards are very low.

They had a peace agreement and the tauren had never done anything against them. Enemies is a pretty big word. Allies of former enemies is more precise.

I was actually talking about the Elves vs Orcs thing. Which, depending on how you look at it, is either the Orcs fighting against the Elves in order to attain badly needed resources, or just 'warmongering'. A term so idiotically throw about on this forum that I am convinced that most people don't know what it actually means.

[ijffdrie]

Your standards are very low.

That, or I don't read a lot of good fantasy. The dwarves from skyrim are way up there as well, but in most stories I read, dwarves are just... well, scotsmen who are good at digging. They sometimes hate elves as well.

I was actually talking about the Elves vs Orcs thing. Which, depending on how you look at it, is either the Orcs fighting against the Elves in order to attain badly needed resources, or just 'warmongering'.

Aah my mistake.

[Magruun]

Actually, speaking in a more serious manner. Shouldn't there be a frostborn on the council of the Three Four hammers?

There sort of is, Muradin was their king after all. besides Frostborn seem to be a small group exclusive to Northrend so they have no claim to the city of Ironforge. they likely didn't even know it existed. The current situation in Ironforge is a direct result of Magni petrifying and Moira being his heir. The Bronzebeards don't want one who sided with the Dark Iron to rule, the Wildhammers just got dragged in because they also lived in Ironforge during the reign of the neutral king Anvilmar
eventually half Bronzebeard half Dark Iron Dagran Thaurissan II will be king of all dwarves something the Bronzebeards and Wildhammers are not looking forward to.

And it isn't just the horde that has suffered at the hands of the savage ironforge dwarves, but also their fellow allies. When the dwarves helped rebuild stormwind, supposedly for altruistic reasons, they claimed a portion of the city for themselves, dubbed 'the dwarven district', establishing a supply line between the district and ironforge, no doubt waiting for the opportunity to declare a "sovereign imperialistic imperative". But the biggest horror caused by the dwarves was probably when they opened up the ancients vaults of Uldaman, releasing a horde of troggs that would eventually invade Gnomeregan, killing most of the gnomish race.

the Trogg invasion was actually an assault by the Dark Iron together with Thermaplugg. Thermaplugg would seize control of Gnomeregan and the Dark Iron would get a foothold in Dun Morogh from which they could eventually attack Ironforge using the tunnels between Gnomeregan and Ironforge.
of course it all went wrong when the Gnomes released the radioactive waste to defend themselves.

[ijffdrie]

the Trogg invasion was actually an assault by the Dark Iron together with Thermaplugg. Thermaplugg would seize control of Gnomeregan and the Dark Iron would get a foothold in Dun Morogh from which they could eventually attack Ironforge using the tunnels between Gnomeregan and Ironforge.
of course it all went wrong when the Gnomes released the radioactive waste to defend themselves.

I thought Thermaplugg was the one who convinced the gnomes to release the radioactive waste.

[Deleted]

That, or I don't read a lot of good fantasy. The dwarves from skyrim are way up there as well, but in most stories I read, dwarves are just... well, scotsmen who are good at digging. They sometimes hate elves as well.

I much prefer Warhammer dwarfs though; fatalistic, grudge-bearing psychopaths who will gladly wage a war against you for the sake of one of their architects being short-changed a few coppers during a construction FTW.

Dragon Age dwarves were just trying too hard to be different. And I hated their accents.

[Deleted]

I don't understand their current drive really. First they simply wanted to learn of their origins, and they learned the most important part in Uldaman.
So then they continue and learn even more in Ulduar, which I think is more than enough to satisfy their drive. But why do they still continue? Why do they have to wreck the whole world for just that 1% of information they didn't know yet?

Their quest for knowledge is starting to feel overdone to me. Brann is starting to seem overzealous. Yes, he's indeed EVIL.

You raise a good point, dude. It does seem rather strange that they would continue their feverish search at the expense other races, when they already know so much about the origins, probably all there is to know without a titan landing on Azeroth to say, "howdy-doo!", and give them the whole scoop. I would assume that it is pretty much for material purposes now. Hoarding resources is sensible (especially post-Shattering, when no one knew what was going to happen to the planet), but to go about it so undiplomatically is rather rude, callous and cold.
To be fair to Brann, I think his curiosity goes beyond the dwarves origins to the whys and the hows of all of Azeroth's creation. (I wonder if when we next leave Azeroth, his compulsion to explore and discover will compel him to follow us.)

[Kyntam]

Actually, at the time the frostwolves took the land, the horde, which banished them to the valley, had a deal with the kingdom of alterac.

And the Alliance is supposed to honor an agreement a traitorous kingdom made?

[ijffdrie]

And the Alliance is supposed to honor an agreement a traitorous kingdom made?

The frostwolves moved into an uninhabited valley with permissions from the owners. The alliance doesn't actually have to honor the deal, since it wasn't the land of the alliance to begin with, and the frostwolves were never part of any hostile force. I'm trying to think up a real-world metaphor, but I can't think of anything that actually happened. So I'll just make something up.

The french are planning to wage war against the rest of Europe. They have convinced Belgium that it best join them or burn along with the other nations. Part of the deal with Belgium is that they concede a piece of land where the people of Angoulème, who are opposed to the war, can live without interfering in french war efforts. A massive war goes on, and France and Belgium invade italy (metaphor for the dwarves), Germany (metaphor for Lordaeron), England (metaphor for Gilneas), Ireland(metaphor for Kul Tiras), Switzerland (metaphor for Stromgarde), the Netherlands (metaphor for the gnomes), Luxembourg (metaphor for the wildhammer), and Spain (metaphor for the elves). But now the italians decide to wage a war of extermination against the people of Angoulème because they wouldn't let the Italians research some old roman ruïns.

[Deleted]

Or maybe 'cause they were enemies or something and for economic reasons. 'unno.

Do I need to quote myself? Ok, here we go:

when peace was applied so to say

After Warcraft 3 and until Wrathgate Alliance and Horde were at peace. So any doing anything without acceptance from local leaders is an invader. Yes, that counts for dwarves as well as orcs, but as I said, dwarves actually ended talking with the tauren and Frostwolves, leaving only the Barrens fort unsettled, while orcs, even though having talked with Jaina... didn't really follow their word, did they? I mean the Warsong orcs never left Asehnvale, the orcs attacked the Alliance in Icecrown even though fighting a common enemy, the orcs kept attacking Stormgarde... see the difference?

[Talen]

Let's take a look at their actions in the barrens. Despite there being a peace agreement between the horde and the alliance, the dwarves move into Barrens and blow up a random tauren village, massacring most of the stonespire clan and destroying their holy sites. And for what? Because the dwarves wanted to do an archeology survey.

They moved onto the same land and used the same right to do so the Tauren invoked to create their village. They responded to Tauren attacks and DROVE THEM OFF leavign only one behind looking for venegeance.

In short...neither side seems to be telling the full story.

And its not just the barrens either. When the discovered only the slightest hint of some titan artifacts, the dwarves actually invaded Mulgore itself, blowing a hole into a mountain and attacking any Tauren who would approach the digsite.

Mulgore is not a Tauren homeland. A few years previously, it was the homeland for the Centaurs who the Horde drove off. "Please stop invading the land I recently conquered and cleansed of its orginal inhabitants", however, doesn't have the same ring to it.

Tales of dwarven atrocities are not just limited to Kalimdor either. The biggest atrocity committed by the dwarves is probably their attack on alterac valley, the current homelands of the frostwolf tribe. Despite the dwarves having no claim to the valley, Ironforge has decreed a "sovereign imperialistic imperative" to take the valley for ores and titan relics. Despite the stormpike guard arriving with explicit intent to slaughter every single member of the frostwolf tribe, they are now claiming that they were merely peaceful explorers and that the orcs are merely mindless savages who attacked the dwarves because of their warlike nature.

Its apparently true. The dawrves didn't know the Orcs were there, the Frostwolves responded by wiping them out thus showing themselves to be as aggressive as any Orc the Dwarves have known. With the Dwarves territory reaching into that area, they have a right to protect their own borders and people.

EJL