Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst ...
3
4
5
6
LastLast
  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Kodt View Post
    if you get rid of many little things (complicated or not doesnt matter) and dont replace them in some way you necessarily think its boring or no fun anymore.
    QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ, what beta have you been playing?

    little things like getting a max spellpower CoD up every minute
    Still have to do that for Doom and Imp Swarm.

    pet switching
    You never had to do that except for AoE/non-AoE phases. You may still have to pet switch in MOP per encounter. But on Ultraxion, for instance, you only pet switched off the pull and that was it.

    different aoe abilitys for different situations
    What are you talking about? In the past you just had Immolation (use if Meta is up, AoE or not), Shadowflame (use when up, AoE or not), Felstorm, and Hellfire.

    Now, you actually have "different abilities for different situations:" Immolation Aura if you want to build max fury. Felstorm if you don't need another pet. And otherwise, Hellfire. Hand of Gul'dan charges are now considered AoE as well, as is Void Ray. So by that metric, Beta should be "better" in your books.

    important CD management
    If anything CD management now that it has a resource will be even more "important."


    I understand the patchwerk rotation might seem simpler, but I think it's hilarious how many are still blathering on about the class being easier without even having tested raid performance yet.

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Inactivity View Post
    We're hardly "Arcane Mage 2.0" and I don't understand how that's become the new catchphrase among the ignorant.
    Besides, shouldn't it be DS/Ruin 3.0?

  3. #83
    Deleted
    only switch pets for aoe purposes and not for the demon soul is often a bad thing. many encounters have some kind of breaks or a phase, where dps doesnt matter (4th plattform on hc madness, before the corruption spawns for example). there are also situations where you cant use your demo (melee)aoe, because you HAVE TO stay away from the adds (e.g. ragnaros, chogall), certain mechanics favour different spells or the adds move quite fast.
    i know you dont use those spells on a regular basis, but you have different spells than the usual demolock AoE. thats one reason why i prefer the warlock, rather than other (dps)classes.
    demo on live is all about cd management and its that much more important, because its a long cd. if you fuck up in the beta and use meta by accident or in the wrong situation it doesnt matter. its much more forgivable. thats another reason why i love demo (especially during progression) on live. impending doom plays also a huge part.


    yes i play(ed) beta a lot (5man, 1 dummy, 4 dummies, ....w/, w/o movement). you blather "without even having tested raid performance yet" too . there are also some good changes .

    i have really no idea why you cant accept simple and obvious facts. if they arent important to you, you still should stop denying them, thats quite annoying and nonconstructive. everyone likes different playstyles. if you dont like 3 dots, pet switches and whatnot you are happier about the betalock than someone who likes the cataclysm demolock. that doesnt make you a better or worse player.
    apperantly blizzard isnt too satisfied with the warlock either otherwise they wouldnt change the lock almost every week entirely.
    Last edited by mmocd4b9946dea; 2012-05-11 at 09:01 PM.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Kodt View Post
    only switch pets for aoe purposes and not for the demon soul is often a bad thing. many encounters have some kind of breaks or a phase, where dps doesnt matter (4th plattform on hc madness, before the corruption spawns for example). there are also situations where you cant use your demo (melee)aoe, because you HAVE TO stay away from the adds (e.g. ragnaros, chogall), certain mechanics favour different spells or the adds move quite fast.
    Oh yeah, you can pet swap during "breaks" like when Ragnaros phases into P4 and stuff. Like that's actually hard to do, or involves any thinking. It's more of a gimmick than anything "engaging." And we have a variety of AoE including when we aren't able to be in melee range. For instance, Glyph of Hand of Gul'dan serves that purpose, and I'd imagine intelligent use of that glyph will be one difference between good and bad warlocks.

    In addition our talents allow us to choose (Mannoroth's Fury) for AoE... and we would have to give up a (potentially, since it is shit now) useful talent for Ragnaros - Kiljaeden's Cunning for the dance phases.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kodt View Post
    i know you dont use those spells on a regular basis, but you have different spells than the usual demolock AoE. thats one reason why i prefer the warlock, rather than other (dps)classes.
    I do enjoy a warlock but it is funny when people think they are special snowflakes. For instance, arcane mages have Arcane Explosion (the "usual" AoE for melee range), Flamestrike, and Blizzard for AoE abilities all with a different caveat. Boomkins have their "usual" AoE (wild mushroom) and can also channel Hurricane if needed a quick AoE, and Starfall, and Typhoon.

    If I remember, many of these classes are also getting their AoE simplified. Point is, I think you're trying too hard to make us out to be special snowflakes when Blizzard clearly realizes we're not, and realizes that no class deserves higher damage at the highest level (except maybe rogues, but definitely not warlocks) than others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kodt View Post
    demo on live is all about cd management and its that much more important, because its a long cd. if you fuck up in the beta and use meta by accident or in the wrong situation it doesnt matter. its much more forgivable. thats another reason why i love demo (especially during progression) on live. impending doom plays also a huge part.
    Impending Doom "plays a huge part" by being an almost completely non-controllable RNG factor except for gimping us (incinerate only) if we need on-demand AoE to the point where we are 1/3 an arcane mage's output. That's not "huge," that's bad design.

    You forget that if you use Dark Soul by accident when you are not in ideal position to go into meta (DoTs are refreshed, fury is near cap) then you fucked up as well. There definitely is still CD manage, if not even more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kodt View Post
    i have really no idea why you cant accept simple and obvious facts. if they arent important to you, you still should stop denying them, thats quite annoying and nonconstructive. everyone likes different playstyles. if you dont like 3 dots, pet switches and whatnot you are happier about the betalock than someone who likes the cataclysm demolock. that doesnt make you a better or worse player.
    apperantly blizzard isnt too satisfied with the warlock either otherwise they wouldnt change the lock almost every week entirely.
    I'm not too satisfied either, but I have really no idea why some people "can't accept simple and obvious facts." like you. You QQ like this is Arcane Mage 2.0, but in reality, you can't even come up with a coherent reason why we are in this situation. Every techinque/playstyle you've complained is "missing" is in fact still in Beta.

    Either way, the product itself is completely unfinished and doesn't feel very good now. I've given what I think they need to do to make it feel better. More keys isn't the solution, there are already more keys needed now than in Live.

  5. #85
    There's a fine line between complexity and complicated.

    I doubt warlocks will be heading towards the Destruction BC model (aka, sacrifice your pet then spam Shadowbolt until the boss dies), however the current model on live definitely needs some improvement. One of the bigger problems is that the spells you want to use (and the manner/situation in which you use them) should be fairly obvious to the average person when they choose a spec, not something one has to theorycraft in order to perform well. For example, Shadowflame... while it's useful in single targets due to theorycrafting, by no means is that spell an obvious choice to use outside of AoE. Shadowbolt vs Incinerate as a filler for Demonology is not obvious to the average player. Why do I want to use Corruption as Destruction when none of my core talents/spec seem to care about it? Do I or do I not want to keep up Immolate on my target as Affliction? Having a plethora of buttons to push is fine and dandy, but when either they're all required or some don't make sense to use or don't make sense to use while being viable anyways, something needs to be fixed.

    Another metric of how a spec plays is that it should be feasible using the default Blizz UI, which is possible but not very practical for some specs, especially Demonology imo (feels more micromanaging than Affliction used to be before DoT clipping and refreshing). Blizz took a step in the right direction with their built-in aura displays and button highlights when something important happens, but Warlocks didn't really receive any help for a class with dynamic cooldowns and needing information from so many places just to make your next spell decision.

    I'm not saying the average person should just pick up a max level lock and perform at 100%, but the goal of MoP should be that the basics of the class are picked up instantly and the subtleties of the spec are learned through playing (which should increase perfomance). No one should need to install add-ons and go to theorycrafting websites just to be able to play a class/spec mildly well.
    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”
    “It's not an endlessly expanding list of rights — the 'right' to education, the 'right' to health care, the 'right' to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery — hay and a barn for human cattle.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Inactivity View Post
    A complex spec does not necessarily have to have a complex rotation... right now it seems rather simple, granted, but consider live:



    If you notice that soul fire and incinerate are fillers (one is execute), then an equal amount of time in live as beta is spent doing filler. That doesn't mean that the spec is easy to play at all, since a huge amount of variables can affect how effective your "1" move is.
    Yea actually I play shadowbolt spec, so that chart is wrong for me and a lot of other demo locks.

  7. #87
    Paraclef is very dumb it seems from his post. And I do play Demo, shadowbolt spec also (yeah, I know, such a special snowflake eh?).

    The only difference is that 1) your filler is now split between shadow bolt and immolate and 2) you spend about 0.3 less seconds casting Immolate. Your special-snowflake spec adds a single item to your priority list (Shadow Trance Procs) and replaces Incinerate filler with Shadow Bolt.

    Live isn't really hard, so much as poorly designed. And beta isn't really easy, so much as better designed.

    I play multiple specs, classes, and roles. I don't think Demo on live is a two-button spec, but it definitely isn't the "hardest thing you have to do." Sorry to burst that bubble.

  8. #88
    I do not know where you got your image from, this is what it looks like:


    As far as all these speculations, it is early Beta - give it a break. Demo plays decent so far, it can only get better before it gets worse.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Calabera View Post
    I do not know where you got your image from, this is what it looks like:


    As far as all these speculations, it is early Beta - give it a break. Demo plays decent so far, it can only get better before it gets worse.
    The pie chart doesn't go into when your abilities are being used: It counts "time spent" on demonic slash the same whether you are using it properly or not. So all of the stance/meta management, which technically should be macroed/have no GCD, is not counted at all in the time-spent graph, but definitely adds stress/effort in management. In terms of your opener, "summon doomguard" has the same place on the pie chart, but a good warlock may have a crazy opener to maximize buffs for it, whereas a bad warlock may just use it improperly and have less than the best amount of buffs on it... so the 2.1s can have a lot of thought behind it despite taking up such a tiny 1% section of that chart.

    That's only two of many reasons why those charts literally don't mean shit, at all.


    [edit]

    Another measure of complexity is the damage done per ability - for instance, if used well small abilities will do far more damage. But this also ignores the fact that fillers do more damage when modified by abilities, so even having a high % of damage coming from filler says nothing.

    Yet another measure of complexity is "APM" - actions per minute. You can argue that more APM is supposed to be "harder" in terms of management. However, in Live, arcane mages have more APM than warlocks right now.

    The bottom line is you can really only tell how hard/easy a rotation is by trying to min-max it. Including watching ALL procs, stance dancing perfectly, getting your snapshots perfectly, and never capping resources/cooldowns.
    Last edited by Inactivity; 2012-05-12 at 06:16 PM.

  10. #90
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Manchester
    Posts
    20,949
    This conversation seems a little pointless, since there are still so many issues with the implementation of so many spells. Live Demo spams a lot of Shadow Bolts, and that's fine because it's broken up by Molten Core procs (RNG that keeps you on your toes) and sustaining DoTs - those things aren't gone. But it's not the number of buttons you press that make it complex or complicated anyway; it's only part of the story, it's a spec that doesn't work as originally intended so some of the issues, such as RNG, filler confusion, Shadowflame, are simply magnified by that fact.

    It's like a car with a 'rattle', it works fine, but there's something wrong with it somewhere that gets on your nerves; then when something does go wrong with it, that rattle sounds so much louder and presumed to be much more serious than it actually is.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    But it's not the number of buttons you press that make it complex or complicated anyway; it's only part of the story, it's a spec that doesn't work as originally intended so some of the issues, such as RNG, filler confusion, Shadowflame, are simply magnified by that fact.
    The spec itself is horribly built and very confusing. For instance, managing HoG and stance dancing are two of the biggest issues I have with the spec right now. In my opinion, stance dancing should simply be removed, with Metamorphosis transforming Shadow Bolt into Demonic Slash (which may or may not have a short cast) and only having it increase non-periodic damage, while giving some "unique demon abilities" that are mainly utility, not DPS-based.

  12. #92
    i've been avoiding demo this whole expansion due to current dps model. demo in wotlk was fun, and the change is for the better in my opinion. Not all of the currently active warlocks like the current model.

  13. #93
    lol an entire expansion of warlocks qq'ing for the demo rotation being crap and now that Blizzard make it easier or tries to adress the issue, now appears the 2 warlocks that say: nooo it's my fav rotation ever is the best thing in the world.

    funny people, funny thread.

  14. #94
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Manchester
    Posts
    20,949
    Quote Originally Posted by Inactivity View Post
    The spec itself is horribly built and very confusing. For instance, managing HoG and stance dancing are two of the biggest issues I have with the spec right now. In my opinion, stance dancing should simply be removed, with Metamorphosis transforming Shadow Bolt into Demonic Slash (which may or may not have a short cast) and only having it increase non-periodic damage, while giving some "unique demon abilities" that are mainly utility, not DPS-based.
    I'm talking about Live, not Beta. Beta is an unmitigated clusterfuck at the moment

    ---------- Post added 2012-05-12 at 11:40 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Dokem View Post
    lol an entire expansion of warlocks qq'ing for the demo rotation being crap and now that Blizzard make it easier or tries to adress the issue, now appears the 2 warlocks that say: nooo it's my fav rotation ever is the best thing in the world.

    funny people, funny thread.
    I've never said Demo doesn't have issues on live, but at it's core is a fun, dynamic spec. In fact I made this thread discussing how to maintain it's feel while fixing many of the issues raised in this and other threads regarding the number of buttons and confusion that arrises from that.

  15. #95
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Dokem View Post
    lol an entire expansion of warlocks qq'ing for the demo rotation being crap and now that Blizzard make it easier or tries to adress the issue, now appears the 2 warlocks that say: nooo it's my fav rotation ever is the best thing in the world.

    funny people, funny thread.
    Nobody said it had to be easier- it just needs to work more fluidly and make more sense. As Jessicka said; it has a decent core concept, however in practice it's executed around a series of clunky and ill-fitting mechanics.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Zaethrir View Post
    Nobody said it had to be easier- it just needs to work more fluidly and make more sense. As Jessicka said; it has a decent core concept, however in practice it's executed around a series of clunky and ill-fitting mechanics.
    I try to avoid the term "clunky" now since the Devs are so out of touch with their own game that they "need" us to be more specific.

    So specifically,

    1) Too many DoTs = more ramp-up time = bad for all burst phases
    2) Too many CD's on the global = more ramp-up time = bad for big burst phases
    3) Too many cast-times = bad for movement
    4) Too many abilities = more and more likely $100+ equipment will be required to be even half-competitive (all abilities, including utility ones, count since they all occupy keybinds)

    (again, there should be some of everything. having cast-times adds skill to the game - makes stutter-stepping and use of ports rewarding. but too much = really, really, really bad, especially if we become non-competitive.)

    That's mainly for raid. Now for soloing,

    1) Too many long casts/ramp-up = not fun because questing is slow as hell
    2) Too little survivability = not fun because you have a lot of downtime in the simplest of quests, compared especially to other classes
    3) Too little soloing utility = not fun, because since we "signed up to play a pet class" we generally are people who like to solo content, and hence deserve to be on the upper end of soloing ability compared to most classes. Since we can only perform one role in groups, soloing ability can partially make up for this deficit

    For PvP,

    1) Too much imbalance with small-scale PvP = not fun. Yes, we are very good for 3's in live. But being shit on in duels no matter how good you are or bad your opponent is = not fun especially for more casual players who might not be able to commit to a hardcore 3's team

    2) We are good in live and should stay that way for high-end arenas, although I can agree other classes should have more abilities. This doesn't mean we should have abilities taken away, however

  17. #97
    I think the idea of Demo on live is pretty cool, but its implementation leaves something to be desired. If I screw up my rotation/priorities on my DK, I can overcome it without feeling like I've gimped myself the entire fight. With Demo, one key press out of order in the first few gcds and I feel like I'm effed, because basically I am.

    I also think the idea of Demo in beta is pretty cool. Don't get me wrong, I realize it's a mess -- but the very fundamental, underlying idea of "you do (x, y, etc) in caster form to build Fury, then you pop Meta and do (n, z, etc) to burn Fury" seems pretty cool to me. I just don't see how they're having such a hard time deciding what x, y, n, z, etc, etc, are.
    I am the one who knocks ... because I need your permission to enter.

  18. #98
    Demonology was only somewhat complex/annoying, back in T11, with Soul Fire haste and the old Hand of Gul'dan.

    It was just burdening and annoying in Dragon Soul with Heroic Spine and pet twisting every lift. If they fix the spec from being demanding on DPS performance with Impending Doom (plus a trinket) and pet twisting - I will be happy. I enjoyed Demonology a lot in ICC and in T11, it was refreshing every raid night compared to Affliction and Destruction to an extent.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Count Zero View Post
    I think the idea of Demo on live is pretty cool, but its implementation leaves something to be desired. If I screw up my rotation/priorities on my DK, I can overcome it without feeling like I've gimped myself the entire fight. With Demo, one key press out of order in the first few gcds and I feel like I'm effed, because basically I am.
    A fire mage is just as unforgiving (although granted uses fewer buttons so it's harder to fat-finger): 1 bad keypress and you're screwed the whole fight.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Count Zero View Post
    I think the idea of Demo on live is pretty cool, but its implementation leaves something to be desired. If I screw up my rotation/priorities on my DK, I can overcome it without feeling like I've gimped myself the entire fight. With Demo, one key press out of order in the first few gcds and I feel like I'm effed, because basically I am.

    I also think the idea of Demo in beta is pretty cool. Don't get me wrong, I realize it's a mess -- but the very fundamental, underlying idea of "you do (x, y, etc) in caster form to build Fury, then you pop Meta and do (n, z, etc) to burn Fury" seems pretty cool to me. I just don't see how they're having such a hard time deciding what x, y, n, z, etc, etc, are.
    And what would you propose for XYNZ, Count?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •