Kil'jaeden's Cunning nerfed again??

[Count Zero]

I guess really it depends on if they're still adhering to the model of "get 1k Fury then pop Meta". If that's not the case, then, yes, there is no penalty for popping Meta before 1k Fury. If they are trying to maintain that model, then popping Fury early disrupts your normal rotation, as you'd be using Fury-using instants -- rather than staying in caster form and using instants.

[Deleted]

It won't depend on "get 1k Fury then pop Meta". That's nonsense, 6 seconds, it's 40*6= 240 DF spend.

To build 0-1000 it takes about 40-45 seconds with no movement ( with low stats ). So 250 DF can be gained in about 8-9 seconds. There is no loss.

[Count Zero]

8/9 seconds = 0 ??

[Azutael]

I never liked kil'jaedens cunning, just feels useless. Tbh all lvl 90 talents are kinda lame I would say.

[clavarnway]

I'm not excited by any of the level 90 talents, which is the opposite of the way it should be.

[tilatequila]

I'm not excited by any of the level 90 talents, which is the opposite of the way it should be.

True this. Imo the negative effect of kiljaedens cunning should be changed. or they should make it the same as burning rush

''Whilst kiljaeden's cunning is active it drains 3% of your health per sec (4-5% is far too much imo) but you are now able to cast whilst moving''

[Jessicka]

8/9 seconds = 0 ??

You'll still get the same number of Slashes off regardless, and the amount of Fury you have no longer effects your DPS so there is zero loss.

[Deleted]

I love that talent, not for it's active part but for the passive. When you look at how current pve content regarding movement works, we never have a huge distance to cover (except for madness). I'm never ever (afaik) moving for more than 2 seconds, which is a single filler cast (as we'll have less instants to refresh during movement). So I'd gladly take that talent, only for the passive effect. Besides, the active part is still über, as 6 seconds is a lot of time (much more than we usually move) and as long as you don't have to move for more than 6 seconds every minute, even the active is great.

IMHO, the fact that the lvl 90 talents are not dps cooldown is what bothers you all (making them not feel very interesting)

My only worry might be that the talent "nerfs" the haste of instant dots if they are applied while moving, but that would be utterly stupid. I guess it would still apply to UA/Immo but hopefully not for Corr/Doom/Agony.

[Jessicka]

I love that talent, not for it's active part but for the passive. When you look at how current pve content regarding movement works, we never have a huge distance to cover (except for madness). I'm never ever (afaik) moving for more than 2 seconds, which is a single filler cast (as we'll have less instants to refresh during movement). So I'd gladly take that talent, only for the passive effect. Besides, the active part is still über, as 6 seconds is a lot of time (much more than we usually move) and as long as you don't have to move for more than 6 seconds every minute, even the active is great.

IMHO, the fact that the lvl 90 talents are not dps cooldown is what bothers you all (making them not feel very interesting)

My only worry might be that the talent "nerfs" the haste of instant dots if they are applied while moving, but that would be utterly stupid. I guess it would still apply to UA/Immo but hopefully not for Corr/Doom/Agony.

I'm not worried about them not being DPS cooldowns - we have that with the Grimoires and there's been endless discussion about how potentially imbalanced they are/might be, and it seems Service is coming up optimal and thus the "only" choice. What matter is that these are utility talents, which are at serious risk of being our next Soul Shard fiasco, where the fear of risking them being too powerful ends up resulting in them being of questionable use at all. That's not to say Soul Shards aren't useful, but they are incredibly situational in a PvE environment and only serve to offer a slim benefit which you could manage perfectly well without. The level 90 talents should be the epitome of a choice where picking one, you will feel like you miss the other two. From a PvP standpoint, these may well offer that for at least two of our specs, but from a PvE standpoint, I'm not so sure.

[Bridius]

I'll be choosing Mannoroth's Fury for Demo so I can dominate big AoE fights, and Kil'jaeden's Cunning for single-target fights as Affliction.

[Deleted]

Sometimes, reading your post Jessicka, i feel that you only care for what's wrong. While it's all right and useful, I'm quite sad for you because you sure must feel kinda frustrated. Even if i'm to be put in the "lucid-pessimistic" box for i see what's suboptimal too, i feel for you ! Things are not what we'd like, ok, but that's life. Apart from being the ruler of all and everything, we must bear with what's we're being given. Nothing will ever be perfect, nor enjoyable, nor "feel right" for each and everyone of us. Accepting things is sometimes easier than fighting wind, and leads to less frustration in your travel.

They say the talents should be equal ? Oh, they are not ? But they each have their use ? Then the talents are good (as in useful) and so be it. They say the specs should be balanced ? Oh one spec is 5% below the others on napkin ? But it has it's use in game, so it's good (as in useful) and so be it. The rotation should be smooth ? Oh, they are not ? But are the majority happy with it ? Then it's good, and so be it.

Please don't misinterpret my follwing statement, but i feel we look like a bunch of dictators. Why that ? Simply look at how many contribute to the forum at hand, and the "level" of comprehension some of you have. Do you feel that you/we represent the majority of the population ? We do not. Do you think driving the warlock gameplay based on our point of view is a guarantee that the rest of the population is happy ? There's no guarantee, and in fact, we could obviously do more harm than good, as we would enforce rules and views that please us upon the rest of the population which obviously and logically might have a very different opinion.

Think of it as a tribe lead by "wise" men setting rules without the members being able to fully understand, versus a democracy where the majority sets the rules. On the "wise" men side, they have a view, and experience to draw a guide line, on the democracy side the population wants happiness now at the cost of a long-term and coherent view. This is what Blizzard is currently doing to warlocks IMHO : please the majority, not the minority. IMHO, the devs aim at making warlocks attractive (because our population is dying) by making it simple because specializing to fit the wise men didn't make it more popular as cataclysm prove it once more. As a side note, they might try and keep the elders not so dissatisfied, knowing that they'll keep playing anyway.

Don't get me wrong, but it's ovious to me and i think we should all accept it as it is : all the work the devs are doing is to please non-warlocks, not currently playing warlocks. Why ? Because who cares that 10% of the warlock population stops playing, when your changes can bring 40% more players to try and enjoy the warlock class ? Simple as that.

Sorry for the out of topic post.

[Jessicka]

Sometimes, reading your post Jessicka, i feel that you only care for what's wrong. While it's all right and useful, I'm quite sad for you because you sure must feel kinda frustrated. Even if i'm to be put in the "lucid-pessimistic" box for i see what's suboptimal too, i feel for you ! Things are not what we'd like, ok, but that's life. Apart from being the ruler of all and everything, we must bear with what's we're being given. Nothing will ever be perfect, nor enjoyable, nor "feel right" for each and everyone of us. Accepting things is sometimes easier than fighting wind, and leads to less frustration in your travel.

No need to feel for me, I have noted some good things it's just very easy for them to get lost in the discussion of what could be better.

[n0n3]

Kil'jaedan's Cunning at blizzcon was "You can cast and channel while moving, but doing so doubles the cast time or period of the spell." Dunno what was wrong with this version of the spell, personally i'd always take double casting time over 50% increased cast time and 20% reduced speed.
They really need to change our lvl 90 talents as none of them look amazing.

[smegdawg]

No need to feel for me, I have noted some good things it's just very easy for them to get lost in the discussion of what could be better.

I agree completely. That's what we are supposed to be doing while playing the beta. When something works well there is not going to be a 5 page long discussion on how it could work better.

As far as or 90 tier talents. Like most of the people in this thread I am not overly excited by any of them. That coupled with the fact that we get no new damaging abilities between 85-90 (I know all 3 specs have been reworked and we already got our new spells at lower levels because of it, it just doesn't feel the same) makes the excitement of hitting the next level less since I haven't discovered a new way to melt someone's face.

Archimonde's Vengeance is the most appealing to me at the moment because I can think of multiple situations in this expansion where that would have been effective.

Omnitron- acquiring target, lightening conductor,
Chimeron- during massacre
Maloriak-red phase
V&T- twilight meteor, blackout
AC- lightening Rod
Cho'gal- During the black blood phase
Shannox -step in a fire trap if healers are prepared.
Beth- every smoldering
Ryolith- Burn phase / concussive stomps
Baleroc, the last 10 seconds of your turn on the crystal]
domo- during high stacks in scorpion phase
ryolith- stomps or crytals what ever you are on
Yor'sahj- yellow red black phase
zon'ozz-before being dispelled, or on high bounces
Ultraxion- Hour soaking, and at the end when damage spikes.

While writing those down I began to actually like AV better then I did because it is an actual DPS boost when used in conjunction with the correct boss abilities.

So as it stands now, I will never use KC unless the situation is spot on perfect for it. Only use MF when there is heavy AoE. And AV at all other times.

[Deleted]

Kil'jaedan's Cunning at blizzcon was "You can cast and channel while moving, but doing so doubles the cast time or period of the spell." Dunno what was wrong with this version of the spell, personally i'd always take double casting time over 50% increased cast time and 20% reduced speed.
They really need to change our lvl 90 talents as none of them look amazing.

In fact, that choice would be counter-productive

a) current version +50%cast/-20%speed
if you move 20% slower, your travel time is multiplied by 1/(1-0.2)=1.25
and if you're casting 50% slower, your cast time is multiplied by (1+0.5)=1.5
then for a given distance to move, you'd get a 1.25*1.5=1.875 cast penalty

b) blizzcon version +100%cast/-0%speed
if you move 0% slower, your travel time is multiplied by 1/(1-0)=1
and if you're casting 100% slower, your cast time is multiplied by (1+1)=2
then for a given distance to move, you'd get a 1*2=2.000 cast penalty

Thus the current version (+50%cast/-20%speed) is in theory better than the first version (+100%cast/-0%speed)

[n0n3]

Thing is by reducing movement speed you'll have to move for a longer period of time to reach the same spot and take into consideration that the cast time will go back to normal once u stopped moving so for example you start casting a 3s spell, u start moving for 1s that spell goes to 6s then once u stopped moving the remaining duration of that cast time will go back to normal.

[Gohzerlock]

I'll be choosing Mannoroth's Fury for Demo so I can dominate big AoE fights, and Kil'jaeden's Cunning for single-target fights as Affliction.

Name one dragon soul fight where you don't already hit everything the tank intends to pull, the only thing I can think of right now is early aoe on yor'sahj.

These are all terrible talents that should be changed, hopefully during beta when we can test these they will see that.

[Nivrax]

Shannox -step in a fire trap if healers are prepared.

Do not ever think of increasing your dps by standing in void zones, especially for really marginal gain. As for your list, you have to think how many damage you will actually deal with it. Assuming 150k hp, each time you loose full health bar in 10 seconds (how often it happen?) you will deal 45k damage. That is just laughable for a 1 min ability, and may work out to be dps loss in most cases if ability triggers GCD. AV being a dps gain also voids Soul Link as valid choice, since it will most likely kick in after damage is split.

To be honest, I can't really see those talents being good either pve OR pvp. Manny-is-mad is pure increase of chance you will flush stealthers out with aoe, and will probably be default (Rain of Fire was back to all specs, isn't it?). KJC only the use effect is worthwhile, assuming we will be able to kite any class in MoP, and that's only against melee trying to interrupt you. AV turns you into anti-cc target. As you can break sheep as Priest by SW on last moment, so backslash damage will lag and break cc, I can imagine anyone who is attacking you, especially if left any dots on you, become uncc-able by spells that break on any damage.

[Bridius]

Name one dragon soul fight where you don't already hit everything the tank intends to pull, the only thing I can think of right now is early aoe on yor'sahj.

These are all terrible talents that should be changed, hopefully during beta when we can test these they will see that.

I was just thinking in general. There's plenty of occasions where 200% to your AoE would be helpful.. especially if it affects Chaos Wave and Carrion Swarm. And don't forget Rain of Fire's our main AoE which is sure to hit everything in one channel.

I'd welcome a change to either of them, but as the talents stand now I'm fine without having Kil'jaeden as Demo. We've got plenty of options while on the move (Hand of Gul'dan, Void Ray, Demonic Leap, etc)

[Jessicka]

There's plenty of occasions where 200% to your AoE would be helpful.

Of course there are, we've had it before in Cremation. It was nerfed at the earliest opportunity, and I'm struggling to understand how the issues it created then with unstealthing and trvialisting the likes of Magmaw and Maloriak have been resolved to keep this talent balanced.