Alternatives to capitalism?

[Swagula]

I think you're taking the post too literal. China is about as communist as Britney Spears is a virgin. Just because they are generally espoused as being a Communist society doesn't mean they actually follow it to rule.

I know they really aren't really that communist anymore, my point was that these situations do not just occur under capitalist/corporatist societies.

[Deleted]

I think you're taking the post too literal. China is about as communist as Britney Spears is a virgin. Just because they are generally espoused as being a Communist society doesn't mean they actually follow it to rule.

China is still largely a centrally planned economy, atleast at the top. These ghost cities are purely the result of the Chinese government central planners wanting to buy new glorious buildings.

[Rosse88]

To start again, as having actually been to India, at most, 40% are below the poverty line. I would argue its closer to 30%. And that is truthfully a social issue more so then economic. If you don't believe me, try talking to them. Its a caste issue. Those below the poverty line wouldn't be given a job even if they were overly qualified. Other parts of India are lovely though, lol. There are also numerous venture groups specializing only in India to assist with this very problem. If you don't believe, just read Forbes or Business weekly sometime.

Also, as far as automation go, the issue is infrastructure (nice mentioning a political campaign issue ). As you further automate a process, there are fewer individuals needed at a specific location (key part). However, at site, the actual electronics need maintenance. Those are new and different jobs. Individuals complaining about lacking qualifications just need additional education. Trust me, it wouldn't take long to learn how fix most installations.

The Chinese housing bubble is interesting. They build numerous settlement zones. However, the costs were only reasonable to a small portion of the population. In order to address this, the party attempted to subsidize the housing for those unable to qualify. Funny thing about that though, there were micro riots about the subsidization from the persons already living there on their own means. Subsidizing the area would have lowered the housing value. So the bubble persists. Also about China, as you move further coastward, the sol increases proportionately. Hence my previous posts about companies moving back to the states.

Also, have you ever heard of the idiom that only reality can counter greed? Consider this. You want regulation on issues, but who regulates them? And who will regulate the regulators? So on and so forth. You can't know, that the whole issue. The problem with regulating something is the ability to control it. Same with taxation. The power to tax is the power to destroy. The very system you speak of to correct greed is victim to greed itself. The reason closed capitalism functions is because it is a check unto itself. As others have stated, capitalism and corporatism are not the same. Markets, however, are intended to be the counter to corporatism. Any corporation has two simple mandates:

1) Maintain profit
2) Maintain competitive edge (Job of the CEO. Contrary to popular belief, CEOs are paid to worry about tomorrow, not today. Today is managements problem)

The market of demand tells a corporation what it can do. If you don't like a product, the company will fail regardless of what people are paid. More a corporation is success, the more a CEO is paid in benefits (not salary, and most packages are deemed before you even know who the next CEO is). This is because they knew what was needed tomorrow. So if you don't like what a corporation is doing, don't deal with them. IE, GM before the bailout.

Which brings me to the next issue, and it can be a bitter pill. People overestimate what they are worth constantly. This is true on both ends of the spectrum (pharmacy and clothing company CEOs are habitually overpaid with perk exceeding a billion a year). If you want to look at capitalism, you can't ignore yourself. You want a salary cap on the CEO? Fine. But you will also be capping yourself about a week later. Because lets face it, how many people here could step into the shoes of a CEO of the company? Knowing that what they do isn't day to day management. I doubt many (speaking as I AM a CEO and play this game daily). But someone I hire? I can go to any University or street pending on what I need and find a suitable person. Thats the reality of the world. So for those socially seeking reform, look at yourself and TRUELY understand the system you complain about. Maybe then you can hold a serious discussion about it. But until then, and I say this to help, no one already in the system will care what you think. Personally, my company itself is rather new and I only marginally care about these types of discussions. Imagine what a larger owner would think. Again, its more about the lack of personal knowledge of the topic then concern.

And for the record, at this time I don't pay myself more then 40% over the lowest of my employees. This isn't due to principle so much as finance and total workforce.

[TheSober]

I think you're taking the post too literal. China is about as communist as Britney Spears is a virgin. Just because they are generally espoused as being a Communist society doesn't mean they actually follow it to rule.

Agreed.
From my point of view of one man in third world country, the problem is not the government/economy systems, is the education of the overall population.

[v2prwsmb45yhuq3wj23vpjk]

I've said this multiple time before.

If left alone, if not fucked with by the government, Capitalism is the most fair and honest system in existence.

Not really. If left alone by the government, Capitalism gets you poisonous products and monopolies.

[Dravan]

All government systems are flawed because human beings are flawed. We all think communism and socialism is inferior to capitalism because that is what we are taught. The simple fact is there is very little difference in all of the systems once you get to the top. In all systems the rich and powerful make the decisions. Corruption is present everywhere and is what causes all models to fail. Case and point - Greece.

What I cannot fathom is why most people in Capitalist countries think that encouraging greed and success over others is a healthy way to live. You would have thought the complete opposite should be encouraged.

[Catta]

Not really. If left alone by the government, Capitalism gets you poisonous products and monopolies.

No no no, free market will fix that...

/sarcasm

[Swagula]

Not really. If left alone by the government, Capitalism gets you poisonous products and monopolies.

I believe the exact opposite. If left alone all monopolies will collapse eventually. Under corporatism however, you get the rise of Monopolies and Oligopolies.

[stabetha]

Not really. If left alone by the government, Capitalism gets you poisonous products and monopolies.

really? didn't the communist/socialist country of China supply us with lots of poisonous products?

[TheSober]

I believe the exact opposite. If left alone all monopolies will collapse eventually. Under corporatism however, you get the rise of Monopolies and Oligopolies.

Can you give one exemple how monopolies will collapse if left alone? I don't believe in invisible hand...

[Gamdwelf]

Can you give one exemple how monopolies will collapse if left alone? I don't believe in invisible hand...

Nobody believes in the invisible hand.

[enphestid]

And this only happens in capitalistic societies? You clearly have not seen the ghost cities in China and the resulting housing bubble. Last I checked China was a communist state.

Is being called a communist state.*

From what I have read of communism ( Marx & engles ; communist manifesto , and other communist books of such , but it's not to say this idea was created and thought of first by these two men. ) , China is not a communist country. But labels have been set upon such leaderships like, Lenin and Stalin too name another two..

[Tradewind]

China is still largely a centrally planned economy, atleast at the top. These ghost cities are purely the result of the Chinese government central planners wanting to buy new glorious buildings.

They're doing it to artificially inflate their GDP. But it's less an issue with the political system and more to do with the people actually running things being batshit insane.

[Deleted]

Can you give one exemple how monopolies will collapse if left alone? I don't believe in invisible hand...

Think for a moment, how does one become a monopoly in a "free market"?

The only way is to achieve close to 100% of market share is to be better than all your competitors from the perspective of the customers. This happens by offering products at cheaper prices and higher value (better quality, aesthetics etc).

And how can this monopoly then abuse its position? It can't charge a monopoly price, which is the negative side of monoplies. New entrants will come to the market if the monopoly tries to charge prices that others could beat.

[Tradewind]

Think for a moment, how does one become a monopoly in a "free market"?

Buy your competition.

[Deleted]

Buy your competition.

Yeah, and getting bought at good dollars will attract more competition.

[Tradewind]

Yeah, and getting bought at good dollars will attract more competition.

I don't disagree lol. I never really understood why there were anti-monopoly regulations to begin with. Clearly if one company has a better product they deserve to win.

[Riidii]

Buy your competition.

But businesses can decline to be bought.

My uncle runs a computer security company and he has been offered to be bought numerous times. He has declined because he feels like he can create a better business than they can.

[Tradewind]

But businesses can decline to be bought.

My uncle runs a computer security company and he has been offered to be bought numerous times. He has declined because he feels like he can create a better business then they can.

Which I guess is one reason anti-trust laws exist. To avoid stifling innovation etc.

[Wells]

really? didn't the communist/socialist country of China supply us with lots of poisonous products?

Tragedy of the Commons.

You really do need government.

---------- Post added 2012-05-14 at 10:25 PM ----------

The only way is to achieve close to 100% of market share is to be better than all your competitors from the perspective of the customers. This happens by offering products at cheaper prices and higher value (better quality, aesthetics etc).

Assumes no natural barriers to entry.