Alternatives to capitalism?

[deetoo]

I came in here curious as to what an "economic" discussion on a video game board would look like. Was not disappointed. Lots of vague "truisms" regarding the virtues of capitalism. Ideology masquerading as natural law (surprise surprise). Total disregard for the last 150 years of intellectual work in these areas, starting primarily with Marx (and by extension Hegel) but you can even trace these ideas back to Rousseau or Aristotle or even capitalist posterboy Adam Smith, who all recognized the dangers of unbridled capitalism and its exploitative tendencies. Or you can fast forward to modern writers like Virilio, McLuhan, Baudrillard, Sartre....

Of course Marx is routinely criticized but very rarely read, so that is to be expected. But for this instance I am less concerned with what Marx proposed would follow capitalism (which is where most haters hate on him, perhaps rightly so given what happened in the USSR with Lenin/Stalin, but that is another discussion) than I am with Marx's critiques of actually-existing capitalism.

You can't look at the world we live in and deny the insane damages caused by global capitalism. From any standpoint really. Environmental. Social and economic justice. Psychological. Spiritual. We live in an age of near constant profit-driven warfare. The environment (read: OUR HOME) has been decimated in the name of short-term profits. The global distribution of wealth is completely unbalanced, and the same trend is found within nations like the U.S. (the macrocosm in the microcosm in the mesocosm). Foreclosures are running rampant, unemployment is the highest in decades, while corporations are simultaneously recording the highest profit margins in the history of the world. And these are just the local problems, to say nothing of the mass devastation enacted in capitalism's name in the developing world or the erosion of civil liberties here at home.

I don't know which system is "better" or where we need to go from here. Who's to say that socialism, communism or capitalism are the right answers? Who's to say those are the only choices? But if we can't even admit to ourselves that there is a problem, then we are probably screwed. And people won't admit there is a problem because they are drunk on ideology.

One of the primary functions of ideology is to "naturalize" the social order, to say that it is in line with laws of the universe and thus no possible alternative exists. (Go ahead and reread the first few posts in this thread and see how many of them fall prey to this). The social order is NOT a fundamental natural law in the way gravity is a natural law. It is completely abstract and constructed, defined by us, not God (or the universe if you prefer that perspective). The same ideology can be found in justifications for feudalism or monarchical rule in the past. We make society, we make the rules, we design the game. If the current game we are playing is exploiting the vast majority of the population (both local and global), which I would argue is undeniably the case given what we see, then we should change the rules of the game. Capitalism is NOT natural, it is NOT gravity, its continuation is NOT inevitable, it is NOT the only way of organizing society's productive forces. But of course that is what the ruling class of capitalist order will say (and of course what the ruling class of any social order will say, past, present or future), and thus that is the viewpoint that propagates and dominates the public discourse. What is most disturbing is that (assuming most of you are working class, which is probably a pretty fair assumption) is that you adopt an ideology that undermines your own class interests and perpetuates your subjugation (to capital). What's also interesting is that even though there is a "ruling class" of sorts in our current society, we are primarily ruled by a total abstraction (which is of course, capital). We design society to best serve capital, not to best serve people. And capital is no person, no one ruler or class, and even those at the top of our pyramid are ultimately serving capital's interests. This is why the real battle for positive change has to take place in our minds (far out yo) before we can enact positive change for our city streets. We must recognize our total freedom in designing the rules of the game, and we should come up with a new system that allows all (or at least more, to avoid sounding utopian) people to enjoy things that we often take for granted.... leisure, education, art, technological progress, community.

mad love and respect. PEAZ.

EDIT - And this does not mean that we have to discard capitalism completely. There are certain things that capitalism does undeniably well. It is excellent at mobilizing and directing the productive forces of society (but I would say it is very poor at determining WHICH things should be produced). It is (to an extent) excellent at providing incentives for personal contribution and innovation, which are important fo sho. The caveat being it actually stifles innovations that cause too large of a disruption to the status quo (ie, electric cars, solar energy, universal health care and education, etc). So ideally a new system would incorporate all the lessons we learned from capitalism, positive and negative. Ironically this was Marx's stance as well and he repeatedly recognized that his "proletarian revolution" would not even be possible without the advances pioneered by industrial capitalism. He viewed capitalism as an unavoidable and necessary stage in the evolution of our species, but he felt that its time had passed. Unfortunately these views are rarely among those parroted by his haters.

What bothers me is that the prevailing ideology is that "capitalism is as good as it gets and no improvement is possible." <-- try to find this meme in some of the previous posts too!
Especially in such a scientific and rational society (at least on the surface, amirite? ), this is a huge contradiction that is glossed over and ignored due to ideology. "The telephone is a good as it gets and no improvement is possible." "The horse and buggy is as good as it gets and no improvement is possible." See how ridiculous that sounds from our current perspective?

Society is a technology for living together.

History does not stop, it keeps moving.

[Tradewind]

I was addressing your comment about unemployment. Minimum wage is a price floor of the labor market which causes a disparity between the demand for labor and the supply for labor, in the market. Prices naturally would be lower than the minimum wage and so adding the floor by law causes people employed to be less than the people who want to work thus causing more unemployment that there would be at a labor market in equilibrium.

Only because companies are unwilling to pay their labor a reasonable wage when they can continue to pay dregs because the unemployed are desperate.

[Xarkan]

So... could I inquire from you as to why unemployment is a problem?

Actually i think lack of unemployment would be more likely to be a problem for a capitalist system. Since the price of anything is dependent on supply and demand then if everyone works then replacing a given worker is harder and the amount you are willing to pay to keep the worker you need goes up.. *shrugs* I guess someone will say 'but that just means unions are bad' and miss the point completely, wages are always up for negotiation and if the easier it is to find a different employer the easier it is to demand more and go somewhere else if you do not get it

[Deleted]

I've said this multiple time before.

If left alone, if not fucked with by the government, Capitalism is the most fair and honest system in existence.

Nope, unchecked Capitalism leaves you with rich people becoming richer and the poor and unfortunate staying poor and unfortunate.

If the world were entirely objective, rational and lawful you'd have a point. But selfishness, corruption and cronyism undermine Capitalisms self-regulating forces.

[Deleted]

I came in here curious as to what an "economic" discussion on a video game board would look like. Was not disappointed. Lots of vague "truisms" regarding the virtues of capitalism. Ideology masquerading as natural law (surprise surprise). Total disregard for the last 150 years of intellectual work in these areas, starting primarily with Marx (and by extension Hegel) but you can even trace these ideas back to Rousseau or Aristotle. Of course Marx is routinely criticized but very rarely read, so that is to be expected.

You can't look at the world we live in and deny the insane damages caused by global capitalism. From any standpoint really. Environmental. Social and economic justice. Psychological. Spiritual. We live in an age of near constant profit-driven warfare. The global distribution of wealth is the completely unbalanced, and the same trend is found within nations like the U.S. Foreclosures are running rampant, unemployment is the highest in decades, while corporations are simultaneously recording the highest profit margins in the history of the world. And these are just the local problems, to say nothing of the mass devastation enacted in capitalism's name in the developing world.

I don't know which system is "better" or where we need to go from here. Who's to say that socialism, communism or capitalism are the right answers? Who's to say those are the only choices? But if we can't even admit to ourselves that there is a problem, then we are probably screwed. And people won't admit there is a problem because they are drunk on ideology.

One of the primary functions of ideology is to "naturalize" the social order, to say that it is in line with laws of the universe and thus no possible alternative exists. (Go ahead and reread the first few posts in this thread and see how many of them fall prey to this). The social order is NOT a fundamental natural law in the way gravity is a natural law. It is completely abstract and constructed, defined by us, not God (or the universe if you prefer that perspective). The same ideology can be found in justifications for feudalism or monarchical rule in the past. We make society, we make the rules, we design the game. If the current game we are playing is exploiting the vast majority of the population (both local and global), which I would argue is undeniably the case given what we see, then we should change the rules of the game. Capitalism is NOT natural, it is NOT gravity, it is NOT inevitable, it is NOT the only way of organizing society's productive forces. But of course that is what the ruling class of capitalist order will say, and thus that is the viewpoint that propagates and dominates the public discourse. What is most disturbing is that (assuming most of you are working class, which is probably a pretty fair assumption) is that you adopt an ideology that undermines your own class interests and perpetuates your subjugation.

Hat's off sir.

You've got a good mind, if you've got the time, I'd suggest to you to watch The Money Fix, which has nothing to do with conspiracies but everything to do with money itself. Strangely enough, a vast majority of people don't even understand what money is, yet they still talk alot about economy and society.

You can watch it here, they have a couple of very interesting ideas:
http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/money-fix/

[Deleted]

I came in here curious as to what an "economic" discussion on a video game board would look like. Was not disappointed. Lots of vague "truisms" regarding the virtues of capitalism. Ideology masquerading as natural law (surprise surprise). Total disregard for the last 150 years of intellectual work in these areas, starting primarily with Marx (and by extension Hegel) but you can even trace these ideas back to Rousseau or Aristotle. Of course Marx is routinely criticized but very rarely read, so that is to be expected.

I've always thought any real Capitalist worth his salt should read Marx, he had a better understanding of the advantages and disadvantages of the system than most, self-described Capitalists. He often praised the system for how quickly and efficiently it could propel a society into advancing rapidly.

He also thought it necessary for a society to go through a stage of Capitalism before ever considering Socialism seriously. I believe it's why he never thought of Russia as an important culture to inspire to revolt and why Russian Communists like Lenin and Trotsky hoped so desperately that more advanced societies like Germany would have their own revolution following the example they set and use their better infrastructure to help the Russian proletariat.

[Deleted]

Actually i think lack of unemployment would be more likely to be a problem for a capitalist system. Since the price of anything is dependent on supply and demand then if everyone works then replacing a given worker is harder and the amount you are willing to pay to keep the worker you need goes up.. *shrugs* I guess someone will say 'but that just means unions are bad' and miss the point completely, wages are always up for negotiation and if the easier it is to find a different employer the easier it is to demand more and go somewhere else if you do not get it

You have a good point, but I would like to point out to my post down at page 3 where I bring up the redundancy of human labor.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

Pure capitalism is hardly "fair" or "honest." By design it promotes social inequality, economic/cultural/environmental exploitation, unemployment, uncontrolled wages, and the promotion of oligarchical ideals, plutocracy. Resting all the power with just a few people, in most cases "the rich."

Truly, capitalism was "left alone,"from the late 90's until 2007...look how well that turned out.

That is ridiculous. It was not "left alone" between the 90's and 2007, it was manipulated by the government that flooded cheap cash into the markets, mainly through interest rates being cut after 9/11. When everything is going fine, noone complains, but if something goes wrong it's the system's fault. Why was noone complaining about the capitalist system in 2004-2006? When people get homes with too good to be true loans, they pretend they donm't know where the money came from, but as soon as they lose their $600,000 home because their $35,000 annual salary can't cover the mortgage they start to blame capitalism rather than their stupidity. People tend to blame variable rate mortgages, but nearly all of defaults were not actually the symptoms of their interest rates being pushed up but because they couldn't cover mortgage+insurance.
Capitalism is fair, you say it isn't because it forms a plutocracy, but that it not capitalistic.
Capitalism is pure when everyone starts off with equal chances of success, and it is then up to them to utilise it. Unfair advantages such as people getting a head start due to family connections with the government or inheriting large sums of money are uncapitalistic. Capitalism != Plutocracy.
Yes, it promotes social inequality in the sense that people who work smartly and with effort get ahead while people who sit arouind all day do not. In what way is that unfair? Why should a hard working individual who works 90 hours a week not be given the resources to lead a better life than someone who works 35 hours?
The problem is when business controlls government, but that is uncapitalistic as it destroys the concept of a fair, competetive market.

[Deleted]

It is impossible to rationally distribute resources without a price mechanism, as proven by Ludwig Von Mises over 90 years ago. There is no alternative to a market economy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economi...lation_problem

[Gamdwelf]

It is impossible to rationally distribute resources without a price mechanism, as proven by Ludwig Von Mises over 90 years ago. There is no alternative to a market economy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economi...lation_problem

What are you talking about? everybody should just live in a field and have no money or markets and everythign will work out fine. /endsarcasm

[Pull My Finger]

I came in here curious as to what an "economic" discussion on a video game board would look like. Was not disappointed. Lots of vague "truisms" regarding the virtues of capitalism. Ideology masquerading as natural law (surprise surprise). Total disregard for the last 150 years of intellectual work in these areas, starting primarily with Marx (and by extension Hegel) but you can even trace these ideas back to Rousseau or Aristotle. Of course Marx is routinely criticized but very rarely read, so that is to be expected. But for this instance I am less concerned with what Marx proposed would follow capitalism (which is were most haters hate on him, perhaps rightly so given what happened in the USSR with Lenin/Stalin, but that is another discussion) than I am with Marx's critiques of actually-existing capitalism.

You can't look at the world we live in and deny the insane damages caused by global capitalism. From any standpoint really. Environmental. Social and economic justice. Psychological. Spiritual. We live in an age of near constant profit-driven warfare. The global distribution of wealth is completely unbalanced, and the same trend is found within nations like the U.S. Foreclosures are running rampant, unemployment is the highest in decades, while corporations are simultaneously recording the highest profit margins in the history of the world. And these are just the local problems, to say nothing of the mass devastation enacted in capitalism's name in the developing world.

I don't know which system is "better" or where we need to go from here. Who's to say that socialism, communism or capitalism are the right answers? Who's to say those are the only choices? But if we can't even admit to ourselves that there is a problem, then we are probably screwed. And people won't admit there is a problem because they are drunk on ideology.

One of the primary functions of ideology is to "naturalize" the social order, to say that it is in line with laws of the universe and thus no possible alternative exists. (Go ahead and reread the first few posts in this thread and see how many of them fall prey to this). The social order is NOT a fundamental natural law in the way gravity is a natural law. It is completely abstract and constructed, defined by us, not God (or the universe if you prefer that perspective). The same ideology can be found in justifications for feudalism or monarchical rule in the past. We make society, we make the rules, we design the game. If the current game we are playing is exploiting the vast majority of the population (both local and global), which I would argue is undeniably the case given what we see, then we should change the rules of the game. Capitalism is NOT natural, it is NOT gravity, its continuation is NOT inevitable, it is NOT the only way of organizing society's productive forces. But of course that is what the ruling class of capitalist order will say (and of course what the ruling class of any social order will say, past, present or future), and thus that is the viewpoint that propagates and dominates the public discourse. What is most disturbing is that (assuming most of you are working class, which is probably a pretty fair assumption) is that you adopt an ideology that undermines your own class interests and perpetuates your subjugation. What's also interesting is that even though there is a "ruling class" of sorts in our current society, we are primarily ruled by a total abstraction (which is of course, capital). We design society to best serve capital, not to best serve people. And capital is no person, no one ruler or class, and even those at the top of our pyramid are ultimately serving capital's interests. This is why the real battle for positive social change has to take place in our minds (far out yo) before we can enact positive change on our city streets.

mad love and respect. PEAZ.

There's no way this kind of reasoning could reach the ones it should, but thumbs up, nonetheless.

[Demithio]

That's exactly what he's saying.. He's a professional, you can trust him he's right and knows how the system works. /sarcasm

In all fairness the person has not yet replied to my question, however, I will say that if it is indeed the case, then the only definition I can assign to that "theory" is pure insanity. In an industrialized nation's economic structure that's called creating an extremely unbalanced economy where only the very rich, and very poor exist.

[Deleted]

You can't look at the world we live in and deny the insane damages caused by global capitalism. From any standpoint really. Environmental. Social and economic justice. Psychological. Spiritual. We live in an age of near constant profit-driven warfare. The global distribution of wealth is completely unbalanced, and the same trend is found within nations like the U.S. Foreclosures are running rampant, unemployment is the highest in decades, while corporations are simultaneously recording the highest profit margins in the history of the world. And these are just the local problems, to say nothing of the mass devastation enacted in capitalism's name in the developing world.

You cannot look upon the world and deny the insane progress mankind has taken since the start of the industrial revolution, under which capitalism has increased the living standards of everyone more than ever before in the history of man.

Most of us would not be alive today if it wasn't for the prosperity resulting from voluntary interaction between people.

I like how you use the word "profit" as if it was dirty. Profit is required for progress.

You also blame wars on capitalism. Under what economic order have there not been wars fought for the personal benefit of rulers? I think you're confusing an economic system with a political system.

[Deleted]

otal disregard for the last 150 years of intellectual work in these areas

Are you kidding me? Marginal utility absolutely destroyed Marxist economics, as did the economic calculation problem, and Eugen Von-Böhm Bawerk's critique of the exploitation theory. There has never been a serious rebuttal against Marginal Utility theory. Look into a mirror.

---------- Post added 2012-05-14 at 08:23 PM ----------

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You can't look at the world we live in and deny the insane damages caused by global capitalism. From any standpoint really. Environmental. Social and economic justice. Psychological. Spiritual. We live in an age of near constant profit-driven warfare. The global distribution of wealth is completely unbalanced, and the same trend is found within nations like the U.S. Foreclosures are running rampant, unemployment is the highest in decades, while corporations are simultaneously recording the highest profit margins in the history of the world. And these are just the local problems, to say nothing of the mass devastation enacted in capitalism's name in the developing world.

Capitalism is a system of voluntary exchanges of property titles. It's the state, that operates based on violence, not cooperation, that you should be targeting. But you want to increase state power and eliminate voluntary association from human society altogether. Brilliant.

[Wildtree]

I agree, deetoo's contribution is hands down the best in here.

As for myself.. I don't know an answer either, and I don't dare to give any expertise, because I am not an expert (which I think, none of us here is).

[Deleted]

I agree, deetoo's contribution is hands down the best in here.

As for myself.. I don't know an answer either, and I don't dare to give any expertise, because I am not an expert (which I think, none of us here is).

Deetoo's contribution is a bunch of emotional drivel unfortunately. Well written, but the content is mostly "oh no there are poor people, wars and other problems, it must be the fault of the rich, who inturn are a result of capitalism".

[Gamdwelf]

Deetoo's contribution is a bunch of emotional drivel unfortunately. Well written, but the content is crap.

Absolutely correct, was about to write a response to it, but this sums it up pretty good, its emotional, and states that capitalism just destroys the world where if you look at global welfare is far beyond what it was 300 years ago before the industrial revolution of the west.

[Lysah]

Yes, it must be the government that causes it to fuck up...


Right...

....yes, it is. In true capitalism the government wouldn't bail out failing companies. Nearly every flaw in the American economic system is created by politics, not the economic system itself.

The government telling oil companies they can't drill in Alaska because we need to preserve its....natural........beauty.....is one thing, flat out interfering with the entire economy by forcibly removing millions from consumers and giving it back to producers who have already wasted it is quite another.

[Deleted]

....yes, it is. In true capitalism the government wouldn't bail out failing companies. Nearly every flaw in the American economic system is created by politics, not the economic system itself.

On the flip side, a well run government can fix all the requirements/flaws of a capitalist system (protecting people from theft etc).

[Romeo83x]

The best system is where people get assigned a fixed education, controlled upbringing and career path based on their genetics.

Then everyone gets assigned a job where they could be the most useful to the society based on their attributes.

If anyone in the society doesn't like it, they get to drink a big cup of STFU for not being a teamplayer.

Oh and everyone needs to wear the same uniform, this way when the aliens come, they will see that we don't fuck around.