Bioware / Old Republic Survey: possible expanision insights

[noahjam326]

No, buying an entire Class is obviously pay-to-win. I'm sorry, but I did the research, and we both saw it. You're simply going to have to accept the facts

How so? Does the class start at max level? If that's listed on the link you showed me then please quote it. What in that article "proves" that class is more powerful or "better" than the other classes? Please provide exact quotations from the article. Otherwise it just sounds like you're assuming. Let me give you an example of how to prove something using a similar situation.

In DCUO you can "buy classes" but they are not any better than the other classes in the game. They've added Green Lantern, Earth, and Electricity "classes" to the game in purchasable DLC packs. These 3 classes are not any stronger than the 6 starting classes (Mind, Sorcery, Fire, Ice, Tech, and Nature). DCUO breaks up their classes into 3 roles, Tank, Healer, and Control (any class can also DPS). Green Lantern added another option for players who like the control role. Earth added another option for players who like the tank role. Electricity added another option for players who like the healing role. These 3 new classes are not any stronger than the original tanks, healers, and controllers. It just added new playstyles to these same roles.

Now please provide evidence how the class you have to buy in LOTRO is stronger than the base classes. Do is start at a higher level? Does it get stronger abilities? Does it fulfill a role no other class can? Are they required to form groups? These are just some of the elements that would make this class imbalanced. The article you linked didn't mention any of these things. So if I missed them please provide some quotes. Otherwise to me it seems no different than "buying classes" in DCUO which did not make you any stronger, but just gave you more options. Again; please provide evidence this class is stronger than the other classes, and how a player who buys this class will be objectively better than all of the players who didn't buy this class.

Edit: Seeing your post up to. Are the unlockable heroes in LoL (I don't play) outright better than the heroes you start with? If not then it's not a pay-to-win model. It's only pay-to-win if the purchase makes you stronger. What evidence have you provided that the purchasable classes are just outright better?

[Shadylol]

How so? Does the class start at max level? If that's listed on the link you showed me then please quote it. What in that article "proves" that class is more powerful or "better" than the other classes? Please provide exact quotations from the article. Otherwise it just sounds like you're assuming. Let me give you an example of how to prove something using a similar situation.

In DCUO you can "buy classes" but they are not any better than the other classes in the game. They've added Green Lantern, Earth, and Electricity "classes" to the game in purchasable DLC packs. These 3 classes are not any stronger than the 6 starting classes (Mind, Sorcery, Fire, Ice, Tech, and Nature). DCUO breaks up their classes into 3 roles, Tank, Healer, and Control (any class can also DPS). Green Lantern added another option for players who like the control role. Earth added another option for players who like the tank role. Electricity added another option for players who like the healing role. These 3 new classes are not any stronger than the original tanks, healers, and controllers. It just added new playstyles to these same roles.

Now please provide evidence how the class you have to buy in LOTRO is stronger than the base classes. Do is start at a higher level? Does it get stronger abilities? Does it fulfill a role no other class can? Are they required to form groups? These are just some of the elements that would make this class imbalanced. The article you linked didn't mention any of these things. So if I missed them please provide some quotes. Otherwise to me it seems no different than "buying classes" in DCUO which did not make you any stronger, but just gave you more options. Again; please provide evidence this class is stronger than the other classes, and how a player who buys this class will be objectively better than all of the players who didn't buy this class.

Edit: Seeing your post up to. Are the unlockable heroes in LoL (I don't play) outright better than the heroes you start with? If not then it's not a pay-to-win model. It's only pay-to-win if the purchase makes you stronger. What evidence have you provided that the purchasable classes are just outright better?

We both know that buying a Class is pay to win

[noahjam326]

We both know that buying a Class is pay to win

How though? I provided an exact example from another game proving that buying a class didn't make you stronger. So I have proof that buying classes doesn't outright make you stronger. You have yet to provide evidence to the contrary. I even gave you a rough outline for how to determine whether a class is pay-to-win or not. You have yet to tell me how this class is stronger than the other classes. If the class isn't stronger, then it's not pay-to-win.

Summery: I have provided evidence of a game that sells classes and is not pay-to-win. You have yet to prove how this class is stronger than the other classes.

[Shadylol]

How though? I provided an exact example from another game proving that buying a class didn't make you stronger. So I have proof that buying classes doesn't outright make you stronger. You have yet to provide evidence to the contrary. I even gave you a rough outline for how to determine whether a class is pay-to-win or not. You have yet to tell me how this class is stronger than the other classes. If the class isn't stronger, then it's not pay-to-win.

Summery: I have provided evidence of a game that sells classes and is not pay-to-win. You have yet to prove how this class is stronger than the other classes.

Unless the Classes were different only for only cosmetic reasons, then buying a Class is pay to win; and LOTRO's Classes have different gameplay mechanics

[noahjam326]

Unless the Classes were different only for only cosmetic reasons, then buying a Class is pay to win; and LOTRO's Classes have different gameplay mechanics

How though? How much better a class is is an objective statement. You can prove how much DPS, Healing, or Tanking a class is capable of. Just because a class plays differently doesn't outright make it do more DPS, Healing, or Tanking. Again; DCUO is evidence of this. I haven't played LOTRO so I can't say if the class is stronger or not, but I do play DCUO (a game that sells classes). I can say with absolute certainty, after having not only played some of these classes, been a part of the community, and played in groups with these classes, their different gameplay mechanics does not make them stronger. Like the difference between a Hunter and a Warlock in WoW. They are both DPS, but they do the same DPS in different ways. This applies to new classes as well, whether they come with an expansion, a DLC, or buyable from a cash shop.

The fact it exists doesn't prove it's stronger than other classes. You have to prove that it does better tanking, healing, or DPSing (or all of the above if it's REALLY overpowered). I haven't seen any evidence to suggest this class is better at tanking, healing, or DPSing when compared to the base classes in LOTRO. You're just assuming it is.

[Zatheyll]

I seriously don't see any of the listed packs as expansions.. really just DLC. If it was an expansion I would see it at least over $40 with 20x the content minimum. I really hope all the effort going into the game isn't going to bring something like what was listed out as an "expansion", which could mean 1-2 years in between. They should just remove the level cap increase from the list and bring something with the cap increase that out with a much much bigger bundle worthy of being called an expansion, and leave this to just being DLC.

Though I also don't like the thought of paying $10 on top of a monthly fee (despite them saying 3 months free.. don't know why they would do that and lose out on money), just to get some extra content.. it would turn into a microtransaction P2P model, which never works well.

[Svifnymr]

Unless the Classes were different only for only cosmetic reasons, then buying a Class is pay to win; and LOTRO's Classes have different gameplay mechanics

I think you're using a different definition of "pay to win". If at the end of the game, you can spend real money to gain a power advantage over a player not spending money but instead investing his time into the game, then you're "paying to win". If two classes are equal in power and nerither offers an advantage over the other, even if all the abilities act differently, then it's not "pay to win", it's just a cosmetic option, really.

[RoninaThorstone]

You can buy every Hero with "Riot Points", to skip the long process of gaining enough "Influence Points". Clearly pay to win

Assuming that each new hero is better than the previous 100 heroes.

Sejuani says hi.

[monostat]

Unless the Classes were different only for only cosmetic reasons, then buying a Class is pay to win; and LOTRO's Classes have different gameplay mechanics

Your definition of Play to win seems to be wrong.

[LilSaihah]

You can buy every Hero with "Riot Points", to skip the long process of gaining enough "Influence Points". Clearly pay to win

That assumes that some characters are stronger than others by intent. They aren't.

[Shadylol]

That assumes that some characters are stronger than others by intent. They aren't.

Just google "elementz tier list"

[RoninaThorstone]

Just google "elementz tier list"

I think its more that the new champions which, as you point out, tend to be bought with riot points tend not to be stronger than existing champions.

As I pointed out.

Sejuani says hi.

[Shadylol]

I think its more that the new champions which, as you point out, tend to be bought with riot points tend not to be stronger than existing champions.

As I pointed out.

Sejuani says hi.

Cool logic

Riven says hi

[LilSaihah]

Just google "elementz tier list"

Just google "did the developers explicitly make these characters stronger than other characters so that buying them provides you an ingame advantage"

[zoefschildpad]

does that thing say we'll be paying 20-30 dollars for a single new planet and some cosmetic stuff, along with the imbalance brought on by the very small level increase? It just doesn't seem to make any sense to break raid content and possibly talent builds like that... If you get 1 more talent point you can often pick up an ability that wasn't meant for your spec. All this just makes no sense to me...

[Xilurm]

Wait I thought they said they wouldn't do expansion, just patches.

[Shadylol]

Just google "did the developers explicitly make these characters stronger than other characters so that buying them provides you an ingame advantage"

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Riven_the_Exile