Sun Tzu's teachings and Guild Wars 2.

[Deleted]

Without shedding blood?
Kill them with kindness.

or simply use some kind of poison gas

[terrahero]

While I agree with what you're saying, there are other downsides to death than just repairs. One of the most discouraging factors to death, particularly in W^3, would be time. Sucks to kamikaze, kill no one at all, and have to run for 4-5 minutes just to get back to the action - better to fall back, regroup, and assault again in a minute.

I dont know how bad that will be once we actually get lv80's doing WvW and keeps and such are upgraded to have waypoints (which are with the last build FREE to port to). Sure you will stilll spend some time running around, but i doubt itll be as long as the current WvW situations where nothing has a waypoint and you run back from your spawn area.

Still, little virtual coin and 10min running vs DEATH. I can live with the first, but not with the second.... yes, pun intented.

[semantic]

..
They seem more valuable for a team on offense giving them a forward staging point for reinforcements to arrive from.

That's actually what I was thinking of. On a tightly contested map, every keep will have some defense. Taking a keep will require a pretty well organized attack force. So the first line of keep defense will extend well beyond the walls and involve all the defender's attempts to disorganize any attack forces trying to get themselves set up. A siege force is very vulnerable while it is on the move. Before the attackers get their engines in place, the keep is an offensive weapon that allows the defender to attack with an inferior force. If the defender can force a siege army to keep respawning, re-organizing the march, re-supplying themselves, etc., he wins the siege before it ever starts.

So the siege commander will need to keep his force together in such a way that the enemy is unable to effectively engage it before he is absolutely ready for the full engagement to start (at the keep walls). The actual siege will probably take a while, so individuals will need to be able to come and go as RL calls. You also have to totally cut off supply to the fort. To secure your lines of re-inforcement and supply and deny the defender his, you have to lock the place down tight. It can all still go to hell if a siegebreaker shows up, but it's guaranteed to fail if you're unable to get the force setup in the first place. And that requires dictating the moment of total engagement.

If there is a greater need/benefit from leaving the current objective. So you need to offer them something that is worth/need leaving for.

Or bring so much power that they figure staying to defend will just cost them time and resources they could spend better somewhere else.

[Deleted]

I dont know how bad that will be once we actually get lv80's doing WvW and keeps and such are upgraded to have waypoints (which are with the last build FREE to port to). Sure you will stilll spend some time running around, but i doubt itll be as long as the current WvW situations where nothing has a waypoint and you run back from your spawn area.

Well, that just invalidated my argument.

I had no idea you could upgrade keeps to have waypoints. That's brilliant.

[Deleted]

We'll see what the tactical value of waypoints is once tight battles start to stretch over multiple days. Once forcing an enemy to regroup at a waypoint becomes a critical success (because the overall battle is so closely contested), all of the stuff like "don't commit to battle until you have the upper hand" becomes important, regardless of the fact that nobody actually dies.

Exactly. Compare it to a 50 minute League of Legends game where a single person getting caught out and killed will put them out of the fight for a full minute - that's enough to lose you the game.

[Squirrelbanes]

Yh...important to realise Anet want to limit downtime or inactive time in any way shape or form.
I'm actually worried about this for changes that may be made to WvWvW later. Could remove a lot of strategy. Hoping they stick to their old school guns and don't skimp on it.

[terrahero]

Well, that just invalidated my argument.

I had no idea you could upgrade keeps to have waypoints. That's brilliant.

Well its not full proof. If the keep is under attack you cant use it, and if it gets taken over it loses all upgrades, including the waypoint. Right now its expensive to upgrade all the way to a waypoint, no idea if its still like that at lv80.

But Anet is tweaking the criteria for what classifies a keep as "under attack". Last BWE it was underattack even if NPCs were nearby, but they said theyd change that. It also opens up delicious tactics of using a small team to keep the nearby enemy keep under attack to prevent the enemy from porting in close to the point you are actually trying to attack. Sounds interesting ^^

[Deleted]

I'd also just like to add:

Play the Total War series if you don't already

+1

I'll never forget that time I hid some Ninja in some trees and routed the enemy army by killing their leaders, or the time I tried to take Sparta in street to street battles and got annihilated. Such awesomeness.

[Squirrelbanes]

+1

I'll never forget that time I hid some Ninja in some trees and routed the enemy army by killing their leaders, or the time I tried to take Sparta in street to street battles and got annihilated. Such awesomeness.

Oh man...trying to kill the Greeks, or even worse the Macedonians with their longer spears, in Rome Total War without a superior phalanx or outflanking them with cavalry is a very sure way to die a painful, screaming death lol. Definitely in my top+ games.
I had to stop the series at medieval 2 as my comp wasn't powerful enough, but have just upgraded and i'll def be getting shogun 2, empire and Napoleon v soon
I adore those games. I pray that WvWvW will be similar in it's epic feel.

[terrahero]

Oh man...trying to kill the Greeks, or even worse the Macedonians with their longer spears, in Rome Total War without a superior phalanx or outflanking them with cavalry is a very sure way to die a painful, screaming death lol. Definitely in my top+ games.
I had to stop the series at medieval 2 as my comp wasn't powerful enough, but have just upgraded and i'll def be getting shogun 2, empire and Napoleon v soon
I adore those games. I pray that WvWvW will be similar in it's epic feel.

I loved playing as the Brutii. Those phalanx were actaully a nice challenge. But once you figured out their weakness it too became very manageable. Missle troops, especially your skirmishers, were very effective. Flanking was also your best bet, but yah in cities they were a nightmare. In the open field, quite manageable.
Rome Total War is still my favorite from the TW series. Mostly because of all the troop diversity, and how factions have different troops with different stats, strengths and weaknesses. Fighting Gauls was a completely different war from fighting Greeks. And playing as a different faction also let you open up to a different playstyle. Loved playing as Parthia and using those horse archers.

[leires]

I kinda do wish there was a way to force people to give up instead of fighting. A surrender or die option with extra spawn time penalty if they don't accept it and end up dying.

[Squirrelbanes]

I loved playing as the Brutii. Those phalanx were actaully a nice challenge. But once you figured out their weakness it too became very manageable. Missle troops, especially your skirmishers, were very effective. Flanking was also your best bet, but yah in cities they were a nightmare. In the open field, quite manageable.
Rome Total War is still my favorite from the TW series. Mostly because of all the troop diversity, and how factions have different troops with different stats, strengths and weaknesses. Fighting Gauls was a completely different war from fighting Greeks. And playing as a different faction also let you open up to a different playstyle. Loved playing as Parthia and using those horse archers.

The incredible diversity is one of the things that keeps drawing me back tbh. I do a campaign about every 6 months i'd say. My last was Pontus (i love their mix of troops). I enjoyed ME2...but R just has an elegance and diversity to it that the others can't match.
I mean...one time after watching the film 300 I played as the Greeks for literally 52 hrs straight (I was younger then and could do such things). I'd conquered Rome and most of the Mediterranean bordering nations by then. No other game has ever done that to me.
And I was always Julii...coz...ya know.

[Deleted]

Oh man...trying to kill the Greeks, or even worse the Macedonians with their longer spears, in Rome Total War without a superior phalanx or outflanking them with cavalry is a very sure way to die a painful, screaming death lol. Definitely in my top+ games.
I had to stop the series at medieval 2 as my comp wasn't powerful enough, but have just upgraded and i'll def be getting shogun 2, empire and Napoleon v soon
I adore those games. I pray that WvWvW will be similar in it's epic feel.

Let's not derail this even further...

Even better playing the greek! Spartan Hoplites and Cretan Archer merchants will destroy ANYTHING. I've won battles where I was outmatched 2 to 1.

[Squirrelbanes]

Let's not derail this even further...

Even better playing the greek! Spartan Hoplites and Cretan Archer merchants will destroy ANYTHING. I've won battles where I was outmatched 2 to 1.

ohhhh.....if u see my post after this one ul see I've very much talk about playing as Greek xD
I once repulsed 3 full AI Roman armies with a 3/4 army of hoplite elites, 2 squads of spartan hoplites and cretan archers. It was awesome xD They just don't learn even on hard lol.
And imo the best strategy series to ever be made has every place in a Sun Tzu discussion imo xD
I just hope we see such tactics in wvwvw

[Deleted]

I am reading The Art of War and can't wait to try out a great many if not most of his ideas in the WvWvW as the leader of a squadron. According to Sun Tzu besieging a city is the wrong thing to due because it drains your resources. He claims the best victory that one can obtain is winning without shedding blood. So I was wondering if anyone had some cool ideas on how to take a point without fighting? (other than no defenders of course)

Ah, another person that thinks reading the Art of War makes him a four star general.
Sorry mate but, it ain't as easy as that.


What he means with the "no shedding blood" part is more of a philosophical, moral standpoint. And no such thing could be accomplished in a game mate. The way he reasons with it, is that if you vastly outmanouver and out-think your enemy, the losses for all will be minimal or nonexistant because of your vastly superior advantages. That or that your own army simply crushes the enemy so hard that YOU don't need to "shed blood".

---------- Post added 2012-05-23 at 04:37 PM ----------

Let's not derail this even further...

Even better playing the greek! Spartan Hoplites and Cretan Archer merchants will destroy ANYTHING. I've won battles where I was outmatched 2 to 1.

You're going very offtopic with your Total War discussion.

[Dreary]

What I got from Sun Tzu was that direct confrontations should be avoided unless you will win (i.e. have numbers on your side).
When outnumbered, you should split off into many small groups to do hit and runs at strategic points in enemy territory. This confuses the enemy, makes them split their forces, then join your side back up again and pick off their smaller forces.

There are alot more principles than just this but I think they can def be applied.

[styopa]

I am reading The Art of War and can't wait to try out a great many if not most of his ideas in the WvWvW as the leader of a squadron. According to Sun Tzu besieging a city is the wrong thing to due because it drains your resources. He claims the best victory that one can obtain is winning without shedding blood. So I was wondering if anyone had some cool ideas on how to take a point without fighting? (other than no defenders of course)

Hm, not sure Sun Tzu operated in a universe where death was only an inconvenience. I'm pretty sure that both he and Clausewitz would both have amended their advice if people could respawn.

Now, if there was a WvWvW arena where you could ONLY spawn a given toon in once and death kicked you from that until it reset.

How awesome would THAT be?
People would approach play siginficantly differently, I'd bet.

Anyway, to your point, if that was the case, then Sun Tzu's dictums about avoiding seiges would apply: attacking the enemy so as to defeat their ability to project force would make perfect sense, with the enemy wiped or at least supressed, you could conduct sieges almost at leisure.

As long as your enemy force CANNOT really be whittled down in any way, only stalled, then sieges are absolutely necessary, and I'd suggest that considering the snowball effect of victories (in terms of buffs) it be prosecuted as a primary goal, with the minimum possible force spent on interfering with their anti-siege efforts.

In any case, by sieging (in this system) you're holding the initiative forcing the enemy to respond to what you do.

[Darksoldierr]

Well since the people inside a virtual city wont starve to death, i would imagine, you need to shed blood...
...
...virtual blood.

[Deleted]

What I got from Sun Tzu was that direct confrontations should be avoided unless you will win (i.e. have numbers on your side).
When outnumbered, you should split off into many small groups to do hit and runs at strategic points in enemy territory. This confuses the enemy, makes them split their forces, then join your side back up again and pick off their smaller forces.

There are alot more principles than just this but I think they can def be applied.

The vietnam war in a nutshell.

[arksun]

The vietnam war in a nutshell.

lol i gotta give this a +1