What went wrong?

[Crysis]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_opera



Well yeah, that's because people in this thread do not seem to know what science fiction is. And instead of educating themselves they would rather continue to appear foolish.

This is what came from your post

"Star Wars is an American epic space opera film" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars
"By the early 1980s, space operas—adventure stories set in space—were again redefined, and the label was attached to major popular culture works such as Star Wars." + "Space opera is a subgenre of science fiction" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_opera

1 + 1 = 2

Would any of you gentlemen want me to give you some more "back up claims" ?

[Arlee]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_opera

Thanks for the link... I have no confusion about what a Space Opera is... my whole point was that the term is bad and a misuse of the term Opera... unless of course you think the therm Space Opera existed before Opera?

[kiefer]

Thanks for the link... I have no confusion about what a Space Opera is... my whole point was that the term is bad and a misuse of the term Opera... unless of course you think the therm Space Opera existed before Opera?

Don't focus too much on what you think the word means.

The word opera means "work" in Italian (it is the plural of Latin opus meaning "work" or "labour") suggesting that it combines the arts of solo and choral singing, declamation, acting and dancing in a staged spectacle.

Nothing in the word itself suggests that there should be singing somewhere.



As for sci-fi vs fantasy, Star Wars is closer to fantasy, it almost completely lacks the most defining elements of science fiction.

[Clymene]

This is what came from your post

"Star Wars is an American epic space opera film" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars
"By the early 1980s, space operas—adventure stories set in space—were again redefined, and the label was attached to major popular culture works such as Star Wars." + "Space opera is a subgenre of science fiction" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_opera

1 + 1 = 2

Would any of you gentlemen want me to give you some more "back up claims" ?

Well good sirs, since we are using wikipedia, I counter with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_fantasy

5th paragraph under Science fantasy vs. science fiction

Thus its is science fantasy.

Actually just goes to show the fallacy of using wikipedia as source.

Also the term space opera bothers me too. So you are not alone, Arlee.

[Profyrion]

As for sci-fi vs fantasy, Star Wars is closer to fantasy, it almost completely lacks the most defining elements of science fiction.

LOL

By whose definition? Yours?

Science fiction elements include:

• A time setting in the future, in alternative timelines, or in a historical past that contradicts known facts of history or the archaeological record.
• A spatial setting or scenes in outer space (e.g., spaceflight), on other worlds, or on subterranean earth.[3]
• Characters that include aliens, mutants, androids, or humanoid robots.
• Technology that is futuristic (e.g., ray guns, teleportation machines, humanoid computers).[4]
• Scientific principles that are new or that contradict known laws of nature, for example time travel, wormholes, or faster-than-light travel.
• New and different political or social systems (e.g. dystopia, post-scarcity, or a post-apocalyptic situation where organized society has collapsed).[5]
• Paranormal abilities such as mind control, telepathy, telekinesis, and teleportation.
• Other universes or dimensions and travel between them.

• Check. Star Wars may be "a long time ago" but obviously features a hyper-advanced population of space-faring humans.
• Double check.
• Triple check. SW has aliens in spades -- the most of any sci-fi content prior.
• Check.
• Check. Hyperspace anyone?
• Check. Empire/Republic/Hutts and the apparent dominance of humans over other races...
• Check. Hello "The Force"!
• Not so much this one, unless you count hyperspace as an alternate dimension.

7 out of 8 -- yeah, I'd say it has all the elements.

Seriously though, this whole argument is beyond retarded...

[jayinjersey]

I will counter that thier statement that

An example of this is Star Wars, a borderline case in which a mystical power known as the Force lends a strong fantasy element to the science fiction veneer.

is incorrect and that the

mystical power known as the Force

is more a paranormal ability, of which the Science Fiction Wikipedia entry covers thus

Paranormal abilities such as mind control, telepathy, telekinesis, and teleportation

Just because everyone worships it as a "mystical power" does not make is so...

[Profyrion]

It's very close to "magic", but that's the only time it strays into fantasy territory. Even the guys who use "magic" still wield futuristic laser swords.

[iggie]

Why wouldn't I? Because Americans have an deep understanding of copyright, licensing and government regulations just because they play games in the US, right?

If you were an American who had extensive experience playing a plethora of Chinese made games from America and I needed some information on that, I'd take your viewpoint seriously.

Since you're obviously deeply ingnorant, I'll pose one last question. How come no other games have issues? Case in point.

On a personal note, I really really want to resub. My past experiences with EA are whats holding me back. That and overnerfed ia/scoundrels (from my friends still playing).

[Crysis]

And more to the point, how is any of this relevant to the topic?

It's not really. But it was a nice break from reading through the constant bashing of the game (a break which some people still cannot pass over the heart pointing at you woodydave).

As for the term "science fantasy" you really can't be serious about that.. only saying it out loud makes me laugh

[Clymene]

I will counter that thier statement that is incorrect and that the is more a paranormal ability, of which the Science Fiction Wikipedia entry covers thus


Just because everyone worships it as a "mystical power" does not make is so...

I guess you kind of missed my point. Wikipedia contradicts itself. Thus using it as source for anything other than laughs is ridiculous.


Profyrion is right this whole argument is retarded. Somethings are not well defined, like a clear delineation between sci-fi and fantasy. To say Star Wars is one or the other requires a clear and well defined definition of both of them. I'm sure we'll never agree on that.

That said this is far more interesting direction for the thread that what was previously going on.

[blackblade]

WoW has built up very high expectations. WoW at release was bug ridden, low content, and overall a mess. Now people want 7 years worth of content that WoW built up. WoW also made people very lazy and impatient. Nobody wants to put any effort into certain things, and they don't want to hear "soon", they want "now". Gamers are very demanding now, especially MMO players.

What can be done? Just keep building with what there is, and at a decent pace. It's impossible to please the whole fanbase, and it'd be idiotic to try. There are some key things that need to be done though. They did put out too many servers at release, but that was partially due to people whining about queues instead of waiting it out.

It is very possible to get players back, and new ones still. Again as said a lot of the community is whiny, and won't come back till they get their own way. Example see this thread and forum. People love bitching. Maybe some are bored with MMO's in general.

Patching is going to have to happen quicker though, as said people are very impatient now. Whether other games patch slowly or not, to keep people involved they need to get server merges, AND new content as quick as possible.

---------- Post added 2012-05-30 at 03:19 AM ----------



I can agree with some of this. While I do enjoy the story content, it just doesn't seem up to the quality of the Mass Effect series or other BW titles. (blah blah the ending sucked, I know. I'm talking overall)

I loved the everliving shit out of the inquisitor storyline.

I even had my own little tale of redemption, starting out batshit insane, and then being reigned in by the jedi padawan companion.





Then I read it was considered the best storyline of the lot, and the lack of anything original to do at endgame pulled me back to wow (I also had a streak of bad internet, and WoW handles lag, and infrequent disconnects much more gracefully than SWTOR.)

The game holds a special spot in my heart, and i'd probably come back in an expansion that extended the single player story of my inquisitor; But there were a lot of unkept promises in SWTOR where they either got lazy, inexplicably cut features (match item color to chest from beta that got reintroduced recently) and handing out the Darth title to every sith who hits max level. (where they said there'd be a bit more strategy involved in getting the title)

On the other hand, they're on the eve of their third content patch since launch, which was days before dragon soul. they have a pretty short iteration for content and I think if they can keep enough staff to generate content (which at this point is one or two numbers guys, a fistful of programmers, and a modest sized art team) they'll have a much healthier endgame if the systems scale properly newer content. No big revolutionary new features, but a growing list of things to do.

I didn't try endgame pvp, but while leveling it was a shitload of fun, esp after pushing max level into it's own bracket.

[RoninaThorstone]

The force is not mystical.

Sorry.

Btw, this discussion is awful. First it was "star wars isn't scifi, its fantasy." then it was "star wars isn't scifi. Its space opera" now its "star wars isn't scifi. Its science fantasy".

Splitting hairs for the sake of trying to fabricate an argument.

Much like there is high fantasy and low fantasy there is high science fiction and low science fiction.

Eve and StartrekNG are more on the "low" science fiction end. Meaning it most closely resembles what it would be like in real life.
Starwars and Flash Gordon are on the "high" science fiction end. These stories, while told in the science fiction tradition, blur the line between fantasy and science.

Some fantasy examples

Conan the Barbarian is an example of low fantasy. Magic tends to be subtle such as control over beasts or simple mesmerizers. Most of what happens is sword fights against beasts and men.
Lord of the rings is an example of high fantasy. We see magic take a more center role and there's other races instead of ethnicity. Elves and the like.

We see a lot of cross over between high fantasy and high science fiction. A perfect example is Thor.

Thor is both science fiction and fantasy. That does not mean it is not science fiction or fantasy, it means its both damn it.

Furthermore, as the "magical" elements of star wars have been horrifically done away with, which has been canonized, it now leans more toward science fiction. This is not a victory for either argument. This is something we should all be sad about. One of the greatest things about star wars was that sense of mysticism.

We all grew up with yoda telling us that the force is in all life, and powerful energy that connects us and binds us. It was a beautiful idea... That GL promptly shitted on 20 years later.

You guys can continue to argue which category star wars belongs in but in the end it means nothing.

[ringthree]

It's not new I know. It was just mentioned and it has always bothered me because like I mentioned before it is a total bastardization of the word Opera and I couldn't let it past. Just because something is an old term is used by people doesn't make it accurate or a good terminology to use.

It's a bastardization of soap opera, not directly of operas themselves.

[woodydave44]

The force is not mystical.

Sorry.

Btw, this discussion is awful. First it was "star wars isn't scifi, its fantasy." then it was "star wars isn't scifi. Its space opera" now its "star wars isn't scifi. Its science fantasy".

Splitting hairs for the sake of trying to fabricate an argument.

Much like there is high fantasy and low fantasy there is high science fiction and low science fiction.

Eve and StartrekNG are more on the "low" science fiction end. Meaning it most closely resembles what it would be like in real life.
Starwars and Flash Gordon are on the "high" science fiction end. These stories, while told in the science fiction tradition, blur the line between fantasy and science.

Some fantasy examples

Conan the Barbarian is an example of low fantasy. Magic tends to be subtle such as control over beasts or simple mesmerizers. Most of what happens is sword fights against beasts and men.
Lord of the rings is an example of high fantasy. We see magic take a more center role and there's other races instead of ethnicity. Elves and the like.

We see a lot of cross over between high fantasy and high science fiction. A perfect example is Thor.

Thor is both science fiction and fantasy. That does not mean it is not science fiction or fantasy, it means its both damn it.

Furthermore, as the "magical" elements of star wars have been horrifically done away with, which has been canonized, it now leans more toward science fiction. This is not a victory for either argument. This is something we should all be sad about. One of the greatest things about star wars was that sense of mysticism.

We all grew up with yoda telling us that the force is in all life, and powerful energy that connects us and binds us. It was a beautiful idea... That GL promptly shitted on 20 years later.

You guys can continue to argue which category star wars belongs in but in the end it means nothing.

I like you. This post wins my respect points.

We all agree that SW is Science Fantasy. We all win. Unless the guy with 40 posts wants to PM me with "Imad" again

[Crysis]

I like you. This post wins my respect points.

We all agree that SW is Science Fantasy. We all win. Unless the guy with 40 posts wants to PM me with "Imad" again

I think you did not understand a word of what he wrote and I think more people will agree that term science fantasy is total bullshit than a term by which something should be called. Nah, I'm fine unless you give me some more reasons to do so. Now I saw some topic in which you could smash the ToR as much as you wanted to, that should suit you perfectly.

[Arlee]

It's a bastardization of soap opera, not directly of operas themselves.

Way to make me cringe But yes you are correct on that point... If they called it a Space Epic I'd be perfectly happy... well also if they got rid of soap operas as well... but that's an entirely different thing.

[Darsithis]

50 pages in and we've changed from discussing issues with the game to what the game, and by extension, what science fiction is. I think it's a good place to end it.