Jaina's Newfound Hatred of the Horde

[Deleted]

See a couple of posts above. The attack on the Stormwind Fleet at Vengeance Landing is prior to the Battle of Undercity and by Horde Forces on Alliance forces. No proxy.

It was a skirmish between Alliance forces and Hand of Vengeance faction, the same that assault Alliance AND Horde at Wrathgate. The Warsong Offensive, led by Garrosh and Saurfang Jr, was on the other opposite side of Northrend and they worked under a tentive alliance with the Alliance.

[Deleted]

It was a skirmish between Alliance forces and Hand of Vengeance faction, the same that assault Alliance AND Horde at Wrathgate. The Warsong Offensive, led by Garrosh and Saurfang Jr, was on the other opposite side of Northrend and they worked under a tentive alliance with the Alliance.

"The Hand of Vengeance is the group of Forsaken forces that have been sent to Northrend by Sylvanas Windrunner to bring Undercity's vengeance upon the Lich King." So - the Forsaken are not part of the Horde and Sylvanas is not a Horde leader? So they do not act as part of the Horde and nothing they do ever counts?



As a sidenote: part of the reason why this discussion is rather interesting to me is a talk by a guy fom the Heritage Foundation about a year ago. He claimed that the goal of liberalism was the abolishment of discrimination and the means by which they try to achive this is the abandonment of standards: Teach children that everything is grey, that there is no black or white, that there are never clear values by which you can judge things and a better world will follow: because due to the lack of standards no one can be judged by them and thus be discriminated against. And to him - that teaching is whats going on in schools throughout western europe and the liberal parts of the US. At that time I thought he was a loony.

But: the discussion we are having right now seems to be one that could only be possible if he was right. My point of view is that there are clear standards by which the existance of a state of war can be gauged: You have an army in my territory that was not invited - we are at war. You kill my people - we are at war. etc.
The counterargument seems to be: war is never as black and white as that - wholesome slaughter is nothing official, you need a piece of paper or something. (Because the pen is mightier than the sword!)

[Deleted]

But i think all people need to remember, She just want to study ^^

[Talen]

Yes to every question. Grizzly Hills and Icecrown showcases it (which happens after Wrathgate and Undercity, lorewise) and the indication of a territorial treaty in the Shattering novel points to it.

Conflict happens after UC.
Conflict happens before UC.
Varian probably did not make his little speech before the Forsaken attacked the Thrid Fleet for example.
There has been conflict between the Horde and Alliance in every XPac without a formal state of war being in place.

It is YOUR interpretation that this not the case after BfUC. That Varians attack automatically escalated the situation into a full, formal state of war. Neither GH nor ICC refer to this state...GH, for example simpy, refers to the usual "we need resources" excuse that is used elsewhere. An excuse that would actually be unneeded if a state of war existed.

EJL

[Deleted]

"The Hand of Vengeance is the group of Forsaken forces that have been sent to Northrend by Sylvanas Windrunner to bring Undercity's vengeance upon the Lich King." So - the Forsaken are not part of the Horde and Sylvanas is not a Horde leader? So they do not act as part of the Horde and nothing they do ever counts?

That's why it's proxy skirmish. Azeroth's warcraft (no pun intended) works on a different concept as ours. War is pretty much part of their lives, forcing all to live on an ever-changing world everyday.

[Talen]

Actually...

Orgrimmar Champion says: This isn't honorable combat. I long to face my opponents in battle with my axe in hand!
Orgrimmar Champion says: These are my enemies. YOU would be my enemy in battle! Your king has declared war on my kind!

Did Thrall escalate it? Did Varian follow through? Varian did commit an act of war. And it had absolutley zero impact on the story. None.

EJL

[Deleted]

Conflict happens after UC.
Conflict happens before UC.
Varian probably did not make his little speech before the Forsaken attacked the Thrid Fleet for example.
There has been conflict between the Horde and Alliance in every XPac without a formal state of war being in place.

It is YOUR interpretation that this not the case after BfUC. That Varians attack automatically escalated the situation into a full, formal state of war. Neither GH nor ICC refer to this state...GH, for example simpy, refers to the usual "we need resources" excuse that is used elsewhere. An excuse that would actually be unneeded if a state of war existed.

Yet, it's the first time that Horde and Alliance fight each other directly. Indication of war.

[Dellis0991]

I hope she goes John J. Keeshan on all da orcs!!! all the orcs?....yes...ALL THE ORCS!!!

[Dreknar20]

Since when has an influx of seawater been a good thing for plant life?

If that was the reason, you'd expect Thousand Needles to be a jungle as well. I'm pretty sure the trees in Desolace were grown by the druids, not by a canyon full of salt water.

In the expansion World of Warcraft: Cataclysm, the destruction of other lands allowed fresh water to flow into Desolace, turning parts of it into lush prairie. However it maintains a reputation for being a wasteland of bones and ashes thanks to the constant battling of the four centuar tribes, and more worryingly the demon-infested Mannoroc Coven to the south.

There you have it
Druids are powerful, but they cannot magically turn a Breen desert into a lush jungle

---------- Post added 2012-06-10 at 08:11 PM ----------

And this is why I don't get why Garrosh fans are so dead set on deflecting blame off of him and onto others. Pretty sure everyone here knows that I'm a Varian fan all the way, and even I admit that he's far from perfect and he caused the small war during Wrath. I don't try and pass on blame because skirmishes always happen, but what he said in UC is a clear declaration of war.

But Garrosh fans are deadset on trying to reasoning out his actions to the point that he seems like an innocent victim of circumstance. The orcs have had 10+ years to try and change Durotar into a more liveable place. Yet all they seem interested in running into Ashenvale and provoking the Night Elves. Even after the fact while he's supposedly invading to help his people, why are his quartermasters still resorting to stealing food from their own allies to feed their soldiers?

Instead of making things better for his people this war he started has made things worse, and yet they still insist that it's not entirely his fault.

Im a Garrosh fan
But i never said or tried to prove that hes innocent or perfect
Merely saying that he has reasons for war beyond "hes just a jerk that loves killinjg for the sake of killing"

Durotar is a liveable place
It only become very very difficult with the Elemental Unrest
Do you really think its easy, even with magic, to turn a desert into a lush woodland or jungle?
Nowehere has that even been achieved

and why are you blaming Garrosh for that?
Blame Thrall. Garrosh was made Warchief when they were already in a supply crisis

Garrosh is far from perfect. and Yes he preffered war. and prbably would not "try very hard" through diplomacy or negotiations.
But its not like "omgz Orcs so stupid for living in Durotar"

Thrall chose Durotar to avoid conflict,
and some reasons of how orcs should pay for their sins, which I dont agree with , but thats another discussiuoin

[Krolikn]

Yes! Let her come out on to the battlefield, then we won't have to look for the hole she hides in!

[VT-Fighter]

For some reason reminded me of Daenerys Targaryen

No sarcasm intended but how does this scenario compare to Daenerys?

You have to take into consideration that this isn't the Horde she sought to live in peace with, this is Garrosh's Horde. Jaina has sacrificed everything in the name of peace, even her own father. I think that her reaction is one of realization that Garrosh doesn't want peace, he wants everyone that isn't an orc dead or subjugated. Heck he doesn't even care about the other races of the Horde, he's a thug on a power trip and his attack on the people of Theramore is, in my opinion, the breaking point for someone who has just realized that her dreams of peaceful co-existence is just that, a dream.

This is a great explanation to Jaina's distraught mindset. Its bad enough that her dreams where washed away as the tide of the undead swallowed her lover into darkness but to add on to the destruction that the world seems to have had with Deathwing's reemergence in to the game, you have to wonder if she believes that she can no longer help guide the fates of the Humans anymore. Since her appearance in WCIII, you find her fighting with what is right and have it all shattered in a town that she built herself from the ground up is enough to throw anyone into chaos among themselves. She fights the tide, but now shes at a crossroads with herself, thinking that the path, any path for that matter, will lead to everyone's ultimate death. She caries a burden that no other human has placed upon themselves.

"Put the War back in Warcraft." Just... Just stop with that... The Horde and Alliance war may be a major war as of now, but, IT'S NOT THE ONLY WAR IN THE GAME. I know that the war between the Alliance and Horde will be the main focus in Mists of Pandaria, but like I said, that doesn't make it the only war in the game or in the Lore.

But how did this war come to pass? A blood feud that drives the orcs and humans into gloriuos battle with one another. This may not be the only story arc Blizzard has, but this is the best one thus far that keeps the player base wanting more. Its what got this franchise to where it is today.

[Darth-Piekus]

Don't you worry Krolikn. You will now taste the true meaning of fear and the consequences of irritating the most powerful mage in Azeroth.

[Verdugo]

Don't you worry Krolikn. You will now taste the true meaning of fear and the consequences of irritating the most powerful mage in Azeroth.

Yeah, what is she going to do, burn some orcs? I am ok with that.

[Dasani]

Jaina grew up in times of peace when the orcs were all in camps. Of course she was young, naive, and nice.

Now that orcs are free again, running around causing problems, constant war, etc. Of course you get bitter after dealing with war and conflict for the past 10 years. Especially if theramore gets destroyed.

[Deleted]

Yeah, what is she going to do, burn some orcs? I am ok with that.

that's just it, for it is not like she can do anything major in game, for if so she will be a boss and then she will be easly killable after 4 weeks, or is she in a quest, if so, how will the horde player survive if she want to kill the player, or is she going to be in some alliance event where they charge a camp or city and then she blast a few hordes. For that is the problem with balanceing ingame and books, for in game is hard to get the same "Ultimate mage" power feeling, for players will just be " lol only 2 milions HP, bosses in cata had more" while in a book, some, if not most people will then miss what happens to her, and then she will just be, before she was in that tower now she is here/or dead

[Zaelsino]

Interesting worldview.

The only thing you'll gleam about my worldview from an Alliance/Horde debate is that I prefer monarchies to perennial regency. <.<

But yeah, by your logic... war was started the moment side A attacked side B. So, which act of "war" are we going to pin the world's problems on pre-Cataclysm? Kul Tirassian humans raiding Durotar? The Warsong Clan moving into Ashenvale? The Arathor conflict? The Stormpike vs the Frostwolves? Theramore blockading the Barrens? Jaime Lannister attacking Stark men outside the- no, wait... My point being, there is no Pearl Harbor here. There's a lot of random skirmishes that neither side gives any real support or muscle to, and they're universally treated as isolated incidents. You could chalk the Wrathgate up to it, I suppose, but we all know how that ended – with Varian trying to kill Thrall and making a proper declaration of renewed conflict.

And just to nitpick, since the quests never make it clear, here's how Blizzard describe the Vengeance Landing quests:

The very first Horde quest chain in Vengeance Landing sees you fighting off an Alliance ambush. Your first job is to visit a line of gunners, popping off shots at a small Alliance camp. The Horde soldiers aren't making any progress, because of the cannons perched atop the fortifications. To help the infantry, you're sent by bat to the navy, under attack offshore. The Horde sailors are suffering under the same ambush - your second quest is to clear their decks to make room for the support guns to fire. The last part: back to dry land, and a quest to drop flares on the Alliance defences, to aid the sighting of those naval guns.[1]

Horde aggression right there, eh?

[Deleted]

But yeah, by your logic... war was started the moment side A attacked side B. So, which act of "war" are we going to pin the world's problems on pre-Cataclysm? Kul Tirassian humans raiding Durotar? The Warsong Clan moving into Ashenvale? The Arathor conflict? The Stormpike vs the Frostwolves? Theramore blockading the Barrens?

What started it is not relevant to me as long as you admit that there was war before Varian clashed with Thrall in Undercity. But I would indeed put it on the Warsong and Thralls unwillingness to remove them from Ashenvale. What was mainly a Human/Orc-Conflict prior to that became an Alliance/Horde-conflict by dragging the Nightelves into it. They probably would not have cared and stayed neutral if the Humans and the Orcs had kept their feud to themselves. So the agression by the Orcs drove them into the arms of the humans and when the humans were finally willing to talk peace (which ended with Varian being enslaved by Orcs) the Horde-Alliance conflict was kept alive by the Orc-Nightelf-fighting.

And just to nitpick, since the quests never make it clear, here's how Blizzard describe the Vengeance Landing quests:
Horde aggression right there, eh?

If you actually read the Quests: it looks that way. The Horde attacked an Alliance Fleet prior to the beginning of the Questline and were then themselves ambushed by the relief forces that came to the aid of the Alliance survivors. There even is a quest that is called "Ambushed" - so that is what Blizzard was referring to.

[Fahrenheit]

I just want Malfurion to come back to the Alliance and do some wild ass Arch Druid type shit in Ashenvale to the horde forces now that Rag and DW are taken care of.

He could just wave his hand and like a million roots pop out and choke every horde member in sight and then suck them down into the ground (hopefully while still conscious) turning them into crude fertilizer to help regrow all the shit they chopped down.

[Trassk]

I just want Malfurion to come back to the Alliance and do some wild ass Arch Druid type shit in Ashenvale to the horde forces now that Rag and DW are taken care of.

He could just wave his hand and like a million roots pop out and choke every horde member in sight and then suck them down into the ground (hopefully while still conscious) turning them into crude fertilizer to help regrow all the shit they chopped down.

See, thats the difference between insane and douchebag characters that would do that, and other characters that would seek to find a better means. They kill a few orcs, and a dozen more come back, and it achieves nothing.

Thats why characters like Malfurion, Thrall and Tirion are assured characters, because there true good guys, well ones like Garrosh and sylvanas was easily corruptible, just like Arthas and Illidan were, and we know what happened to them.

[Verdugo]

I just want Malfurion to come back to the Alliance and do some wild ass Arch Druid type shit in Ashenvale to the horde forces now that Rag and DW are taken care of.

He could just wave his hand and like a million roots pop out and choke every horde member in sight and then suck them down into the ground (hopefully while still conscious) turning them into crude fertilizer to help regrow all the shit they chopped down.

Like that pathetic senile meatbag could even do something like that, all he could do since he was introduced in w3 was summonning trees and wisps and rooting random characters for questioning. Dont overestimate druids, they fall by dozens every day while defending critters and flowers.