An Actual PvE Endgame Reality Check

[Tarien]

This is going to seem like a bashing thread and I am sorry for that. I really hope GW2 does well, while I have my favourite MMOs I am not one of those people who fanboy's theirs over all others. That being said I just wanted to confront some of the hype and very high expectations of Guild Wars 2.

The main thing I hear is all this talk of how the dungeons and zone content will constitute enough endgame content. Let's consider three points about dungeons first.

1) I find it extremely difficult to believe that eight dungeons will keep people entertained for more than a short length of time. Sure there will be more at some point in the future, but over what time scale and how many at a time and how long are those meant to last? Many players are used to progressing from dungeons to epic raid settings with deep lore driven story and bosses out of legends, with gear upgrades to match. Now you will be running the same eight dungeons for an indeterminate but probably quite long period with only cosmetic rewards.

2) While there are features to prolong the dungeon's length such as story (hard) modes and the dungeons can be randomized in some ways, these will only serve to delay the inevitable boredom. Repeating the same events in a different order or slightly different path will not detract from the monotony of the same bosses, surroundings, events, etc.

3) Without gear upgrades there is very little incentive to keep clearing dungeons, once you've seen it, achieved what can be achieved and gotten whatever cosmetic items you need, what is the point? Furthermore, without gear upgrades you will eventually find the optimal method of clearing a dungeon... and then it's the same every single time. In other MMOs with gear progression your technique changes as you gear up. Initially you use CC, LoS pulls, and so on. Later you brute force it, and later still you chain pull wildly while the DPS try to balance running with AoEing. You won't get that in a gearless game, you'll find the optimal method and that's it.

Moving onto the dynamic world content, I struggle again to consider this to be worthy endgame content. It is somewhat like returning to Elwynn Forest and completing the quests you missed. Granted the Dynamic Events will mix things up so that it is different and the world feels more alive than a bunch of NPCs standing around telling you to kill ten boars, collect ten boar spleens, but in effect you are revisiting leveling content. I'm sure that people are going to cry 'But it isn't leveling content, it's all endgame content' or some such, but really it's going to feel like it did while you were leveling up, because it is what you were doing while leveling up. And, just like SWTORs story leveling experience, the novelty will wear off. There is a limit to how much ArenaNet will have scripted, and sooner or later you'll see it all.

All of this is not to say that GW2 is not without merit. It's combat system and graphics are a major step forward (though, TERA already has it beat, in both those departments, sorry), and I actually love the sound of the Dynamic Events that will be taking place continuously throughout the game as a method of leveling. The PvP sounds great because there will be no gear disparity, it will be all skill based, though I suspect that the complex interactions that are touted as a major selling point will be beyond the grasp of most PuG PvP groups. It's hard enough to get a battleground full of players to move as a group, let alone set up walls of fire and shoot arrows through them in a coordinated fashion. I also have reservations about ArenaNet's ability to deal with latency in the face of WvWvW scale battles, initial reports seem a bit mixed and honestly no MMO developer has ever tackled this successfully to my knowledge.

Ultimately I feel that this game is for the super casual players, by reason of it's very limited amount of endgame content, with limited replay value. Many of you right now are thinking 'of course it has no sub', and, 'hell yes, super casual - that's me'. A lot of you are dead wrong. You think you're casual, and by many people's standards you are. But believe me, many of the points I have raised above will come to haunt you and without meaningful endgame content you will become bored and (re)turn to other games. I honestly believe that it would take a truly casual player to find enjoyment in this game.

I hope this doesn't offend too many people and that you appreciate that I have managed to make a fairly logical post without turning this into a game vs game thread. Please respond in the same fashion

[Jimusmc]

hey guys.. let's play the game for something other than fun.

[Tarien]

hey guys.. let's play the game for something other than fun.

If repeating the same short endgame content over and over doesn't bother you, don't let my opinion stand in the way. Also remember I am only commenting on what I perceive as the replay value of the endgame PvE content, not every aspect of the game.

[Raintola]

hey guys.. let's play the game for something other than fun.

Yeah, because what everyone considers fun is the same!

[Allanon the Mystic]

If repeating the same short endgame content over and over doesn't bother you, don't let my opinion stand in the way. Also remember I am only commenting on what I perceive as the replay value of the endgame PvE content, not every aspect of the game.

Not to sound like an ass, but what game do you play doesn't have this?

[Tarien]

Not to sound like an ass, but what game do you play doesn't have this?

Most of the major MMOs out today? No doubt they all have dungeons that you go through a number of times, but there are then raids to progress to, with new dungeons/raids/battlegrounds etc being added over time, ranging from 2-6months between content updates. My personal favourite is RIFT (if my sig didn't give that away already) because the updates are every two months and there are more meaningful and fun things to do in that MMO than any other I have played.

[Khanjin]

Great.. another one who just doesn't get it.

Guild Wars 2 isn't like WoW. You don't pay a subscription. Therefore it's okay to PLAY FOR A MONTH, WAIT AND PICK IT UP A COUPLE OF MONTHS LATER.

God. Who the hell plays other 60 dollar titles forever? Are you still playing Bioshock over and over and complain about no new content? These expectations that content is going to last forever is retarded.

Content comes with patches over time, and this is not a raiding game. If you want to sustain, try tournaments. Deal with it.

/endrant

[Windry]

I agree with the OP. I plan on buying GW2, but a lot of people on these forums are talking like it's the next big MMO, and personally I don't see it.

I don't really see any see myself playing Diablo 3 after beating Inferno Diablo. I didn't really have anymore motivation to play SWTOR after beating all the flashpoints and operations a few times. I can't possibly see how Guild Wars 2's end game will keep me entertained in the long term.

Don't get me wrong, all of those are great games, and I expect GW2 to be a great game. For $60, I'm sure it'll give me at least 150hrs of game play, which is great. I'll probably level 3 or 4 characters to max with various groups of my friends (like I did with SWTOR) and then look forward to the next great game. I just don't see it having an endgame that will keep me going, but I'm not walking into the game with the expectation or hope of one.

[ShamanTankFTW]

You seem a touch cynical and your points in your posts are touched with the hindsight that you acquired from other games. Granted, some of your points are vaild; and to some people all of your points will be valid. However, you are forgeting that this is what is only coming out on release. A-Net has been extremely quiet on what it has in store of expansions, and it hasn't even talked about what they plan to put in thier patches yet.

The sad truth of your entire post is that all of the downfalls of GW2 are indeed in every other MMO out on the market; whether it be F2P, B2P or subscription. Let us go through then shall we?

1 & 2 - Eight dungeouns are enough for all the gamers wanting to experience them during the initial release. Why? Because of the way the were created and scattered around the leveling zones. The first dungeoun you gain access to is at level 30. As soon as you complete the story mode of that dungeon then you will be able to enter it again only this time you will be able to go play through 3 completely different ways other than your first trip. Not to metion that all of the "Explorable" versions of the dungeons are aimed at people with a higher skill level than the normal "casual" gamer. So you must point out that it is not actually 8 dungeouns you are refering to, it is actually 32. Name one game that had as many when it was first launched and I'll kiss you.

3 - This point you are trying to make is completely useless. You are arguing that there will be nothing to do for progression after you acquire all the gear that you want/need... Uhh, for any game out there (ie WoW, SWtOR, Rift) that is exactly the same thing for PvE. As soon as you get what you want, there is no point to go back in...but people still do anyway. We won't even go into helping out friends and guildies with helping them with what they want/need. Now optimizing your playstyle to get the best results? You throw that in your argument? Tell me one game where you won't do that.

Now as to your whole point about Dynamic Events being end game content. For the most point I completely agree with you; but that is only if you are refering to doing the events that you have past along your way to reaching max level. You have to realize that there are specific events made for the highest level players in the game. They are not just for people trying to level up, they are specifically engineered for players who are in great gear and are able to hold up thier skills against the encounter. Think of an outdoor raid like in WoW, but one that scales. I see no difference with this game's "end game" to anyone other games; except for a no loot treadmill.

Anyway, I am not trying to attack you or anything but your post threw out some left-field statements that are easily explained. I am not trying to nerd-rage at you or anything, just point out that a lot of people see this game in the same light that they see every other MMO out there. And let's be honest, they are exactly right. It's just the same old style with a fresh coat of paint on it.

[Tarien]

Great.. another one who just doesn't get it.

Actually that's what I should say to you. The whole point of my post is that people are acting like this is the next big MMO, when in fact it's meant to be a much more casual game, played when you feel like it.

I agree with the OP. I plan on buying GW2, but a lot of people on these forums are talking like it's the next big MMO, and personally I don't see it.

Don't get me wrong, all of those are great games, and I expect GW2 to be a great game. For $60, I'm sure it'll give me at least 150hrs of game play, which is great. I'll probably level 3 or 4 characters to max with various groups of my friends (like I did with SWTOR) and then look forward to the next great game. I just don't see it having an endgame that will keep me going.

Thank you for getting it

[Khanjin]

Actually that's what I should say to you. The whole point of my post is that people are acting like this is the next big MMO, when in fact it's meant to be a much more casual game, played when you feel like it.

So, can you explain to me what the point of your thread is? Pointing out that there is no raids? We already know that. Rising awareness of this?

[Kickbuttmario]

So, can you explain to me what the point of your thread is? Pointing out that there is no raids? We already know that. Rising awareness of this?

He's trying to discuss the interest in this. Why are players so interested in all of this.

[Tarien]

1 & 2 - Eight dungeouns are enough for all the gamers wanting to experience them during the initial release. Why? Because of the way the were created and scattered around the leveling zones. The first dungeoun you gain access to is at level 30. As soon as you complete the story mode of that dungeon then you will be able to enter it again only this time you will be able to go play through 3 completely different ways other than your first trip. Not to metion that all of the "Explorable" versions of the dungeons are aimed at people with a higher skill level than the normal "casual" gamer. So you must point out that it is not actually 8 dungeouns you are refering to, it is actually 32. Name one game that had as many when it was first launched and I'll kiss you.

I don't buy this. If any other MMO had the option to do the dungeons in reverse, ie last boss first and work your way to the entrance, would we then say that it has twice as many dungeons? If a random number of bosses or paths through the dungeon were available, and it changed each time, would we say that there are x times as many dungeons? Of course not. Randomising bosses, paths and events prolongs a dungeons lifespan but it does not constitute 4x as many dungeons.

3 - This point you are trying to make is completely useless. You are arguing that there will be nothing to do for progression after you acquire all the gear that you want/need... Uhh, for any game out there (ie WoW, SWtOR, Rift) that is exactly the same thing for PvE. As soon as you get what you want, there is no point to go back in...but people still do anyway. We won't even go into helping out friends and guildies with helping them with what they want/need. Now optimizing your playstyle to get the best results? You throw that in your argument? Tell me one game where you won't do that.

You go back to help guildies because they need gear from the dungeon. And after dungeons there are raids, and those dungeons and raids are updated fairly frequently. This keeps things fresh and interesting because you are always progressing. Eight dungeons on the other hand can and will be cleared very quickly, and then that is it. No raids, no new dungeons and raids for quite possibly some time. Essentially one half of the possible PvE content is missing because there are no raids, technically more since we spend more time raiding than in dungeons, I think.

Now as to your whole point about Dynamic Events being end game content. For the most point I completely agree with you; but that is only if you are refering to doing the events that you have past along your way to reaching max level. You have to realize that there are specific events made for the highest level players in the game. They are not just for people trying to level up, they are specifically engineered for players who are in great gear and are able to hold up thier skills against the encounter. Think of an outdoor raid like in WoW, but one that scales. I see no difference with this game's "end game" to anyone other games; except for a no loot treadmill.

That does sound great, and it is news to me. But again, once you've done it and seen it, why repeat it? People talk about loot treadmills like they are a bad thing, but they forget that the reason that they exist is that it is cool to get an awesome new weapon, it is awesome to be more powerful today than you were a month ago.

Anyway, I am not trying to attack you or anything but your post threw out some left-field statements that are easily explained. I am not the kind of person to nerd-rage on someone who is bashing a game they like, I just thought that it would be helpful if you were able to see everything that you posted in a different light.

Not sure you can explain away someone's opinion, but I appreciate the constructive nature of your post. Yes mine does seem cynical, because I am trying to reign in the hype a bit and the expectations that this will be the next big MMO. It won't, there isn't enough content to hold all but the most casual PvE gamers attentions.

---------- Post added 2012-06-09 at 04:36 AM ----------

So, can you explain to me what the point of your thread is? Pointing out that there is no raids? We already know that. Rising awareness of this?

Honestly almost everyone I speak to seems to think that GW2 will replace their current MMO, that it has a ton to do, etc. I just wanted to inject a little rational discussion about what is actually available to do once you hit max level, and why that content may not satisfy people who are used to significantly more content in other MMOs.

[Arewn]

I'll go in order and try my best to address each point from what I've heard and believe, so some of this is subject to my own opinion:
1. The 8 dungeons are 8 stories with 3 additional challenge modes each that are completely different from each other (think of it as each part of Scarlet Monastery, it's all SM but there's 4 different dungeons there), so that's actually 24 challenge dungeons(perhaps the equivalent to heroic dungeons in WoW?, and from the sounds of it we're talking heroics as they were at the very start of Cataclysm before every one was in epics and before the nerfs), 32 dungeons total. Also, do remember the majority of players don't raid in WoW (not until maybe LFR which is only a few months old, 7 or so years of WoW went without) so while raids are cool and fun, they aren't that strong of an argument that there won't be enough content.(I'll continue using WoW as my go-to example since it's well known and easy to compare).
2. This is already the case in WoW, you repeat dungeons continuously, long past the point that they were fun, with gear as a goal creating an artificial sense of fun (see Skinner box, in particular the episode of the video series "Extra Credit" on Penny Arcade which talked about it)
3. Mostly the same as above, but to go further, those "changes" you talk of don't make for fun progressive methods in game play, you just zerg it more and more as you get geared up and trivialize the content, if you are going to say that that constitutes significant change to keep it interesting, then I'll restate what you said about the randomization in the dungeons as significant enough to keep you going. Also to expand on that, there's dynamic events within the dungeon which happen at random and change the progression of the dungeon. Finally, you do gear up in GW2, there's grey, white, blue, green, yellow, orange and red (legendary) as we've seen it thus far (subject to change), there's just no gear treadmill where your old gear is trivialized and made into a skip-able gear tier when new content comes out.

It is leveling content certainly, but it's something fun that's desirable to do, even if the novelty wears off (which will happen slower then other games thanks to the event system changing things up, you will reach a point where you know it all, but that point will come later). Even in WoW one of the big time sinks is making alts to re-level up through the content, so novelty isn't the biggest factor in the contents desirability to be repeated. It's also important to note that your stats scale down to the zone you are in, so while you do keep your progress in making builds and gaining new abilities, the content in the zone stays relevant because your damage, defense, health and all that is in line with the enemies in that zone, it's not the same as going back to do quests in WoW on your level 85 and aoe kill the entire quest's objective.

Tera having it beat kinda depends... GW2 is an improved hot key combat system, Tera has a different combat system all together so a straight up comparison comes down to what you're looking for: type A or type B, what's more Tera combat is really just Monster Hunter style combat put into a typical MMORPG (not to say that's bad, MonHun combat is great, I'd like to see it in more genres), even graphics is debatable, GW2 is stylized while Tera went for Hyper Realism, two different direction to go for in combat with neither really being better then the other. Which game does it's style better graphically? maybe Tera but I don't know (yes I have actually SEEN Tera graphics and gotten significant exposure to them lol). Buuut that being said I can completely see why "Tera's combat is better" I'd say the combat type is inherently better then then hot key combat type.
My personal experience from the first beta weekend in WvW was that the latency wasn't that high and it was (somehow) less laggy in WvW then it was in the PVE zones (though I think that's do to a problem with my graphics card)

One big thing to remember is that the only end game content GW2 does not have that most MMORPGs such as WoW do, is raids, but the majority of the player base doesn't raid as their main content source in WoW. Aside from that, the rest of the content in GW2 is improved or expanded upon versions of content found in games like WoW.

Hope my points are reasonable, and no offense was taken from you questioning the validity of a new game's changes to content : ). Similar to what you said about GW2, I would like to say I did not mean to put down or make fun of other MMORPGs or WoW with anything said in my post, people like different things, I've played WoW for a long time and am now tired of it after a good run, and am looking forward to GW2.

[Loaf Lord]

OP are you aware of elite dynamic events that come at level cap? They aren't making to go back to durpwyn forest or lollington gorge after you've reached cap, they're just giving you the option to if you want. There's going to be plenty of elite dynamic events to do at level cap alongside the dungeons. They'll also be adding more dungeons via patches like any normal mmo. They also said they'll be adding new dynamic events quite frequently without telling us so it ends up being a suprise. This is of course excluding structured pvp, WvW, achievements and all the mini games they're adding in the cities.

[ShamanTankFTW]

I don't buy this. If any other MMO had the option to do the dungeons in reverse, ie last boss first and work your way to the entrance, would we then say that it has twice as many dungeons? If a random number of bosses or paths through the dungeon were available, and it changed each time, would we say that there are x times as many dungeons? Of course not. Randomising bosses, paths and events prolongs a dungeons lifespan but it does not constitute 4x as many dungeons.

Personally I don't see any difference, especially when it is a brand new game. There are never a lot of actual content for end game in any new MMO. Rift had exactly the same amount when it came out, SWtOR as well. WoW did have more that 8 dungeouns, true, but in any of those games once you past them up there was no point in going back either, yet people still did.

You go back to help guildies because they need gear from the dungeon. And after dungeons there are raids, and those dungeons and raids are updated fairly frequently. This keeps things fresh and interesting because you are always progressing. Eight dungeons on the other hand can and will be cleared very quickly, and then that is it. No raids, no new dungeons and raids for quite possibly some time. Essentially one half of the possible PvE content is missing because there are no raids, technically more since we spend more time raiding than in dungeons, I think.

I think we are trying to prove the same point here. Either way you look at it it is the same style of progression. In either case you are trying to acquire different/better/cooler looking gear. When you are finished, then you go and help your friends/guildies. If it is just the tiered progression that you are talking about then I really can't follow you on that one. In my mind, yes, it is harder, but to me it is still the same old grind. You are doing the same thing.

That does sound great, and it is news to me. But again, once you've done it and seen it, why repeat it? People talk about loot treadmills like they are a bad thing, but they forget that the reason that they exist is that it is cool to get an awesome new weapon, it is awesome to be more powerful today than you were a month ago.

I honestly do think we are starting to argue the same point now. Just like in WoW, you go out and get the item/gear you want, then there is never a need to go back there. But people still do; it is fun or they want to help someone else out. Now, I'm not bashing on the loot treadmill system. I agree with you completely on this subject, however, do you not find a system of aesthetic progression similiar? No, of course you are not getting more powerful, but you still get to look cooler and feel more badass don't you?

Not sure you can explain away someone's opinion, but I appreciate the constructive nature of your post. Yes mine does seem cynical, because I am trying to reign in the hype a bit and the expectations that this will be the next big MMO. It won't, there isn't enough content to hold all but the most casual PvE gamers attentions.

My apologies, was not trying to attempt to explain away your opinion, just trying to put it in a different light. However, I do find it a bit foolhardy that you are trying to reign in an entire game's following of thier hype. lol, there will always be hype for a game of this caliber, and it will either grow with the release or die like so many others.

[Loaf Lord]

You're not really getting more powerful in any other mmo either tbh. Sure your numbers go higher, but the content adjusts to your statistiscs so it's not like you gain the power of domination... except for over the lower level areas, but if you're so powerful what's the point of going to those areas? And even though I may be a level 9999 mage of badassery who bitch slapped kil jaeden back to the nether and make illidan soup within the same hour, I'll still be ordered to save critters from burning trees come next expansion.

[Mif]

The only argument I see is a Wow fan that can't comprehend a game without banging your head on an endless gear treadmill for fun.

Why must you try to sully every MMO with your obsession?
Does it offend you that GW2 is about entertainment and not trying to feel superior to others?

[LurkerOnly]

Guild Wars was a PvP game with some tiny PvE content to give you something to do if you weren't in the mood for PvP.

I'm expecting GW2 to be a PvP with some slightly-more-than-tiny PvE content to give you something to do when you aren't in the mood for PvP.

Seems your post indicates that my expectations (and I'd assume the design intent) are being matched.

[Kiry]

I've spent a little time over the past year or so, watching, reading stuff on end games for the latest and greatest MMO that I'll play. I'm done with that. It's easy to get hooked by the carrot. I've been playing GW2 in the beta events, and judging it by the now. What's better for me, no sub. This is a game that I feel I have more control over, what I want to experience, how I want to play, what I want to spend money on...and better yet...it's fun.

End game? Who knows, I'll see it when I get there. If it keeps me, great. There is so much out there to play, to have fun with and people to co-op with. Why does it have to be just one game? I'm done with that, been there done that for 7 years. It's silly.