So what has the alliance done thats so bad blizzard?

[Dreknar20]

Stop putting Varian and Garrosh together. They're nothing alike.

Varian has a legit reason to distrust the orcs in particular, and the reason behind his actions were attributed to the failed merging out his two personalities. After he found balance in Wolfheart the change is staggering.

Garrosh however goes from whiny to RAWRSMASH in under two seconds and now suddenly thinks that Azeroth owes them for some unknown debt.

but they are alike
They were both meant to press the Alliance and Horde closer to war

Yes Garrosh definatly is just "whiny RAWR blah blah", do you just ignore Horde lore or something?
Go read Heart of War
it answers the questions as to why Garrosh despises the Alliance, and as to why he went from being best buddies with Thrall to becmoning irritated with his leadership

[RyanEX]

but they are alike
They were both meant to press the Alliance and Horde closer to war

Yes Garrosh definatly is just "whiny RAWR blah blah", do you just ignore Horde lore or something?
Go read Heart of War
it answers the questions as to why Garrosh despises the Alliance, and as to why he went from being best buddies with Thrall to becmoning irritated with his leadership

I read Heart of War.

Big Deal is all I have to say. He goes from whiny to ready to hit women who don't show respect. I also liked how he gave more credence to the one that insulted him than to the one that spoke reasonably.

Garrosh came to a world where all he knew was that his people had tried to invade and failed. And his reaction is that they didn't owe the world anything. That should just take what they needed, easily waving aside the fact that trade was already established.

Why am I even bothering?

You're a confirmed Garrosh lover and in your eyes he can do no wrong. By the time we get to the Siege you'll still be but it's not all his fault.

I will say this though. Pay special attention to the way he dresses down Blackscar. And then remember what he's supposed to do Theramore. And then remember that you're the one that insisted that people read this.

[Dreknar20]

I read Heart of War.

Big Deal is all I have to say. He goes from whiny to ready to hit women who don't show respect. I also liked how he gave more credence to the one that insulted him than to the one that spoke reasonably.

Garrosh came to a world where all he knew was that his people had tried to invade and failed. And his reaction is that they didn't owe the world anything. That should just take what they needed, easily waving aside the fact that trade was already established.
.

Do i need to read it for you?
Garrosh believes that the Horde deserves a better quality of life than what Durotar can provide , and to him if that costs Alliance blood to achieve it then so be it.
He does not understand why Thrall chose to settle in a wasteland, when they have the strength to forge a better life.
Look at Wolfheart, he wants to build a new city in a land where they actually have access to the resources they to not just simply survive, but to thrive

Plus Im on Garrosh on the whole "paying for sins of father", because to me, the only people that should pay for a crime are those that commmitted them. Children should have to pay for the sins of their parents.

Sure Garrosh wants to prove himself a hero through war, since thats the only way he knows how, but he is also pushing war for what he believes will build a better future for the Horde

and why the hell do people harp on Garrosh for being "wimpy"?
Who the hell would not be depressed? He lived most of his early years knowing that his father had helped doom his entire race to a Blood Curse, he was sickly, and weak and pretty much told he was worthless and should die by the rest of the Horde

[Karthorn]

Do i need to read it for you?
Garrosh believes that the Horde deserves a better quality of life than what Durotar can provide , and to him if that costs Alliance blood to achieve it then so be it.
He does not understand why Thrall chose to settle in a wasteland, when they have the strength to forge a better life.
Look at Wolfheart, he wants to build a new city in a land where they actually have access to the resources they to not just simply survive, but to thrive

Plus Im on Garrosh on the whole "paying for sins of father", because to me, the only people that should pay for a crime are those that commmitted them. Children should have to pay for the sins of their parents.

Sure Garrosh wants to prove himself a hero through war, since thats the only way he knows how, but he is also pushing war for what he believes will build a better future for the Horde

and why the hell do people harp on Garrosh for being "wimpy"?
Who the hell would not be depressed? He lived most of his early years knowing that his father had helped doom his entire race to a Blood Curse, he was sickly, and weak and pretty much told he was worthless and should die by the rest of the Horde

Grom's sacrifice and Thrall's (I feel like I should be calling him Go'el now) decision to settle in Durotar was to teach a life-long lesson to the Orcs, to never go back to the old ways and to not repeat the past, to which Garrosh is doing right now.

[Deleted]

1. He was looking for new allies and received help from the forsaken, who were not trusted at first. But they also negotiated with the Alliance.

2. What point are you trying to make exactly, the Scryers were part of his original army and did not join A'dal because it was the right thing to do, but because Voren'thal had a vision and yes the Scryers told their people about Kael's allegiance I never denied that.

3. As mentioned before the dwarven Ambassador got intel on the sanctums, gave it to the night elf and he sabotaged it. But I am willing to give you that point, since you can read both things into it.

Did you read it all then?

Sigh. I had started writing a comprehensive post to prove why some of your points are a bit off, but I decided it would probably be futile.

I don't wish to provoke you or anything, but it seems like you've interpreted the Horde quests a bit too literally. The Blood Elf questline was written to demonstrate how desperate and bitter they have become as a result of what happened to their city/race.

Try to read between the lines with the quest text - they have been cleverly written so that the BElves are shown to jump to conclusions (whether they are right or not is beside the point) and are quick to blame others (the Night Elf/Dwarf for sabotage) instead of admitting their own mistakes (overloading the sanctums because their addictions are too great). This is a common theme with the Horde races, and is what binds them together.

[Combatbutler]

It even came from before that, when Sylvanas helped Lor‘themar and Kalecgos in rescuing Anveena from Dar'Khan. That permitted the Blood Elves to reclaim the Sunwell Grove and Silvermoon from the Scourge.

Silvermoon was not retaken until Rommath showed up, to boost the resistance. Yes Sylvanas did help back then, but her help was not appreciated.

Sigh. I had started writing a comprehensive post to prove why some of your points are a bit off, but I decided it would probably be futile.

I don't wish to provoke you or anything, but it seems like you've interpreted the Horde quests a bit too literally. The Blood Elf questline was written to demonstrate how desperate and bitter they have become as a result of what happened to their city/race.

Try to read between the lines with the quest text - they have been cleverly written so that the BElves are shown to jump to conclusions (whether they are right or not is beside the point) and are quick to blame others (the Night Elf/Dwarf for sabotage) instead of admitting their own mistakes (overloading the sanctums because their addictions are too great). This is a common theme with the Horde races, and is what binds them together.

Naw provoking me takes far more than well thought through criticism. You have a point and it is possible, but given how the Night elves operate in the Ghostlands I drew the conclusion, that they were there to spy and sabotage, they take the ley line nexi and kill anyone who gets to close. Also take into consideration, that the blood elf starting zone takes place some time after the Draenei one it is unlikely the night elves would want to allow them to operate at full capacity.

[Deleted]

Naw provoking me takes far more than well thought through criticism. You have a point and it is possible, but given how the Night elves operate in the Ghostlands I drew the conclusion, that they were there to spy and sabotage, they take the ley line nexi and kill anyone who gets to close. Also take into consideration, that the blood elf starting zone takes place some time after the Draenei one it is unlikely the night elves would want to allow them to operate at full capacity.

Regarding the Ghostlands, I think you're right. This was my interpretation of events happening, in chronological order:

1) Exodar crash lands and the Draenei encounter Kael's Blood Elves whom are openly hostile and consorting with demons
2) Draenei encounter Night Elves and, after the initial misunderstanding, an alliance is formed
3) Way over the other side of the world, the Blood Elves are ruining their sanctums by putting them into overdrive to satisfy their cravings
4) After the events on Bloodmyst, the Night Elves are dispatched to spy on Silvermoon to confirm rumours that the Blood Elves have resorted to siphoning demon magic
5) The NE spies are discovered and the dwarf ambassador was immediately viewed with suspicion and murdered without trial
6) By the time your Belf arrives in the Ghostlands, the NEs are aware that you've killed some of their troops and (in their opinion) unjustly murdered the dwarf ambassador
7) This is when the NEs become openly hostile and you know the rest

This series of events makes sense to me because it confirms two truisms:

1) Alliance painting all members of a particular race with the same brush. This is seen twice: once with the injured NE sentinel waking up and freaking out upon discovery of the Draenei (due to Eradar relation). Secondly by assuming all the Belves at Silvermoon know the full extent of Kael's (and his troops) corruption and are willingly following him regardless

2) Each component race of the Horde started out with a massive grudge, believing that the world owes them something. The Forsaken want acceptance, the Orcs want a home, the Trolls lost their identity/culture, the Tauren were being exterminated, the Blood Elves felt abandoned. They are also quick to suspect another race/person/whatever of wrongdoing, and slow to realise their own mistakes. They often act before thinking, and rarely are there negative consequences

[schwank05]

If Vol'jin could unite the other troll tribes the horde could wipe the Alliance out in less than 1 year. I chose the horde because they were viewed as the bad guys, and hell its a fantasy game based around fiction. Why the hell would I want to play a human when I can be a giant walking talking Cow, or an Orc or Dead guy? i play a human every day so of coarse it is the logical thing to want to be a massive hulking creature in a game, and fuck up the alliance's shit all day long.

And all this wining about Theremore its buried deep in horde territory, my only question is why wasn't it destroyed before it was even built? Easy because Jaina ad thrall were bump buddies, then I think too many people were upset with orc and human mixed babies. So blizz makes Aggra to be thralls new woman and gets rid of jaina, alliance needs to face it she is weak. She wont retaliate she will cry and run away, probably just become a crazy old witch in a hut in Ashenvale.

[Soilets]

[/COLOR]

If Vol'jin could unite the other troll tribes the horde could wipe the Alliance out in less than 1 year. I chose the horde because they were viewed as the bad guys, and hell its a fantasy game based around fiction. Why the hell would I want to play a human when I can be a giant walking talking Cow, or an Orc or Dead guy? i play a human every day so of coarse it is the logical thing to want to be a massive hulking creature in a game, and fuck up the alliance's shit all day long.

And all this wining about Theremore its buried deep in horde territory, my only question is why wasn't it destroyed before it was even built? Easy because Jaina ad thrall were bump buddies, then I think too many people were upset with orc and human mixed babies. So blizz makes Aggra to be thralls new woman and gets rid of jaina, alliance needs to face it she is weak. She wont retaliate she will cry and run away, probably just become a crazy old witch in a hut in Ashenvale.

Well she will become kinda crazy but in no way will she go to seclusion ooooh nooo she's gonna fireball whatever horde she can spot to outland check the lore and a pic where she has gray hair .Basically in mop she wants war to happen after what happened in theramore .

[RyanEX]

If Vol'jin could unite the other troll tribes the horde could wipe the Alliance out in less than 1 year. I chose the horde because they were viewed as the bad guys, and hell its a fantasy game based around fiction. Why the hell would I want to play a human when I can be a giant walking talking Cow, or an Orc or Dead guy? i play a human every day so of coarse it is the logical thing to want to be a massive hulking creature in a game, and fuck up the alliance's shit all day long.

And all this wining about Theremore its buried deep in horde territory, my only question is why wasn't it destroyed before it was even built? Easy because Jaina ad thrall were bump buddies, then I think too many people were upset with orc and human mixed babies. So blizz makes Aggra to be thralls new woman and gets rid of jaina, alliance needs to face it she is weak. She wont retaliate she will cry and run away, probably just become a crazy old witch in a hut in Ashenvale.

Sounds more like someone's upset that they DIDN'T mix babies. Honestly though you sound like someone who's just gunning to provoke a reaction.

[sagimore]

Its too late to make one side evil. Everyone is either N or Good in my opinion.

[Deleted]

Silvermoon was not retaken until Rommath showed up, to boost the resistance. Yes Sylvanas did help back then, but her help was not appreciated.

I didn't said they retook it, but it was the start for it (they retook the Sunwell Grove, thought). And her help wasn't appreciated, but it open the diplomatic relationship between the two people.

[Dreknar20]

Grom's sacrifice and Thrall's (I feel like I should be calling him Go'el now) decision to settle in Durotar was to teach a life-long lesson to the Orcs, to never go back to the old ways and to not repeat the past, to which Garrosh is doing right now.

Ahh Hell no, I will never call Thrall Go'el, he will always be Thrall to me

Thats just my opinion, but why should people pay for something they did not do, like Garrosh said, those two orcs were born inside the prison camps, they never committed any crimes while under the Fel Horde

---------- Post added 2012-07-13 at 07:59 PM ----------

If Vol'jin could unite the other troll tribes the horde could wipe the Alliance out in less than 1 year. I chose the horde because they were viewed as the bad guys, and hell its a fantasy game based around fiction. Why the hell would I want to play a human when I can be a giant walking talking Cow, or an Orc or Dead guy? i play a human every day so of coarse it is the logical thing to want to be a massive hulking creature in a game, and fuck up the alliance's shit all day long.
.

Ever since Warcraft 3, the Horde stopped being the bad guys to just being normal guys
They are not the bloodthirsty monsters they were in Warcraft 1-2, Metzen expalined all that away with the whole Blood Curse theme and idea

Like you said Thermore was not destroyed because Thrall and Jaina wanted to try out peace
But like most times, when people try for peace, shit does not always work out how they want.

[Darnassian]

Do i need to read it for you?
Garrosh believes that the Horde deserves a better quality of life than what Durotar can provide , and to him if that costs Alliance blood to achieve it then so be it.

Its actually costing horde blood, by the drumfull. All their rage and aggression, even atrocity got them nothing. Now they are trying to up the ante with demoralising attacks coz their strategy is failing. Garrosh will be like Hitler, cowering in his bunker in Berlin while the Americans and Russians close in, laying waste to everything.

He does not understand why Thrall chose to settle in a wasteland, when they have the strength to forge a better life.
Look at Wolfheart, he wants to build a new city in a land where they actually have access to the resources they to not just simply survive, but to thrive.

and push out, rule, annihilate said land's native inhabitants and the only ones competent enough to keep it thriving for thousands and thousands of years. The orcs are posterchildren for stupid, lazy, entitled vermin.

Plus Im on Garrosh on the whole "paying for sins of father", because to me, the only people that should pay for a crime are those that commmitted them. Children should have to pay for the sins of their parents.

The orcs have countless sins that will take generations to atone for. Rather than attempt to try they feel they can kill off anyone who looks at them the wrong way and therefore buck atonement entirely. It will cost them everything in the end, or do you really think the Darkspear, Tauren, and Forsaken are going to just snap to steadfast loyalty to a warchief who thinks them inferior and only good for cannonfodder?

Sure Garrosh wants to prove himself a hero through war, since thats the only way he knows how, but he is also pushing war for what he believes will build a better future for the Horde
and why the hell do people harp on Garrosh for being "wimpy"?
Who the hell would not be depressed? He lived most of his early years knowing that his father had helped doom his entire race to a Blood Curse, he was sickly, and weak and pretty much told he was worthless and should die by the rest of the Horde

He's going to be responsible for the darkest days the Horde ever experienced since they threw off the yoke of the Burning Legion.

---------- Post added 2012-07-13 at 02:32 PM ----------

If Vol'jin could unite the other troll tribes the horde could wipe the Alliance out in less than 1 year. I chose the horde because they were viewed as the bad guys, and hell its a fantasy game based around fiction. Why the hell would I want to play a human when I can be a giant walking talking Cow, or an Orc or Dead guy? i play a human every day so of coarse it is the logical thing to want to be a massive hulking creature in a game, and fuck up the alliance's shit all day long

There's a lot more to Alliance than humans. I'd rather be a 7ft tall amazon grinding your cow and green gorilla corpses into feed for a nightsaber. And Trolls united standing a chance against the Alliance? Trolls united couldn't do anything when they were at their strongest. Remember, they got steamrolled by a tiny empire of magic wielding elves and their butts have been hurt ever since inspite of the fact their gnat-lifespans should've afforded them the ability to move on after thousands of years

[Ruki-san]

Tauren were here before the Alliance and the Alliance of Lordearon...

And so were the other current Horde races. The orcs have always been known as the "Horde" from what I understand, that's what I was referring to

[lupii]

And so were the other current Horde races. The orcs have always been known as the "Horde" from what I understand, that's what I was referring to

The original Horde consisted of Orcs and Ogres. Now, we could get into a debate on if the 'Horde' at this point is the "Old Horde" or the "New(really turning old) Horde". What does the word mean now?

But in terms of the "New Horde" Races:
*Tauren were around during the time of the Well of Eternity
*Trolls predate Night Elves
*Blood elves about as old as the sundering (From their previous incarnations the High Elves)
*Goblins are questionable
*Undead are reanimated humans and are actually the youngest race in the horde, technically. (with the whole Lich king thing happening 20-30 years after the first two wars)

Now The Old Horde, about a bit older than the first war, given they slaughtered the Draenei.

The alliance however, from what I know, the Orc attack was actually the thing that pulled all the human nations together, thus the "Alliance" was actually created as a reaction/response/result of the Orcish Invasion of the Kingdom of Stormwind (I.E. Azeroth.) The Alliance was actually called back then the "Alliance of Lordaeron" due to the fact it was created in Lordaeron, not Stormwind.

Therefore, when referring to the Old or New Horde, the Alliance actually is predated by the Horde.

Sources:
http://www.wowpedia.org/Alliance_of_Lordaeron
http://www.wowpedia.org/Alliance