1. #11681
    I am Murloc! unfilteredJW's Avatar
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    Ive managed to get into yellow maps pretty easy but I feel like I could have done it a lot quicker.

    I will say that the new atlas has me running whatever maps now looking for conquerer pops. I still haven’t really figured much else out, but that’s unfortunately the way the devs have decided to go.

    I do hate having to leave a game to look up things that should be basic knowledge supplied in game. At least I’m hardened to this issue having played Warframe for so long.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    I think the intention was to have the community struggle to figure it out initially. There are already several high end players who have made videos on how to progress.

    I don't know. Like I said, my views on POE are different. Even though I'm primarily a SSF player, I view it as a community-driven game, which is what sets it apart from other ARPGs.

    Could it have some mechanics better explained? Sure. I won't dispute that. But at the same time there's also value in the community coming together to fully explore and explain it as well.
    There’s value in it when it comes to the min/max aspects. Basic functionality that allows you to continue playing: not power progress, just actual playing, is fucking moronic.

    PoE is a great game with a shit end game system.
    Wall of LOLs
    Quote Originally Posted by Sulla View Post
    Yeah I know. It'll take another 2 years + to knock Rozz and Flarelane down to size as Endus eventually was. Not worth the effort. My lack of posting here recently has been sort of 2-fold. One is because it's extremely boring watching the crazies come to the inevitable conclusion that they've failed. TDS seems to be an awfully persistent disease. Two is because I'm saving my infraction points to unleash unholy Hell when Trump wins re-election.

  2. #11682
    Quote Originally Posted by unfilteredJW View Post
    Ive managed to get into yellow maps pretty easy but I feel like I could have done it a lot quicker.

    I will say that the new atlas has me running whatever maps now looking for conquerer pops. I still haven’t really figured much else out, but that’s unfortunately the way the devs have decided to go.

    I do hate having to leave a game to look up things that should be basic knowledge supplied in game. At least I’m hardened to this issue having played Warframe for so long.

    - - - Updated - - -



    There’s value in it when it comes to the min/max aspects. Basic functionality that allows you to continue playing: not power progress, just actual playing, is fucking moronic.

    PoE is a great game with a shit end game system.
    Is anyone who's watched community videos on how to progress the atlas actually stuck?

    If so, then I agree that it's not a great design.

  3. #11683
    Brewmaster Enjeh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    I've tried this...still ran out of maps. I tried spawning bosses with lower tier versions since I saw it pinging my atlas when I'd open the map...still nothing happening.
    When it pings the atlas, It's just to show which region you have entered a map in.

    You still need to run it in the level corresponding to the amount of orbs used in the regions citadel, if you hoover over the containers on the left side. If Haewark Hamlet says "Number of Socketed Watchstones: 4 Required to Spawn Conqueror" you need to run T14-T16 maps for it to spawn.

  4. #11684
    Quote Originally Posted by Enjeh View Post
    When it pings the atlas, It's just to show which region you have entered a map in.

    You still need to run it in the level corresponding to the amount of orbs used in the regions citadel, if you hoover over the containers on the left side. If Haewark Hamlet says "Number of Socketed Watchstones: 4 Required to Spawn Conqueror" you need to run T14-T16 maps for it to spawn.
    Yeah, that's what I thought.

    I just can't get any bloody maps to drop for the life of me so I'm functionally regressing in progress at this point...which shouldn't fucking happen.

  5. #11685
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Is anyone who's watched community videos on how to progress the atlas actually stuck?

    If so, then I agree that it's not a great design.
    I think the issue is that the "mass majority" of players never look up 3rd party guides / forums / etc when they play games. So here's a game that pretty much necessitates that for the most basic of systems... doesn't do shit to explain it to players... and relies on their community to make up for their lack of designing these things in an unituitive or informative way.

    Which is fine for the players who want that, but it'll always remain niche if that's the case and always drive off 99% of players.

    All of like what... 2%(?) of players have killed uber elder? And its not hard to do, the whole game is trivial combat wise. Its just a matter of actually playing the game long enough to get there... and so few people do.
    "I've carefully played this game to an endless despair"

  6. #11686
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    I think the issue is that the "mass majority" of players never look up 3rd party guides / forums / etc when they play games. So here's a game that pretty much necessitates that for the most basic of systems... doesn't do shit to explain it to players... and relies on their community to make up for their lack of designing these things in an unituitive or informative way.

    Which is fine for the players who want that, but it'll always remain niche if that's the case and always drive off 99% of players.

    All of like what... 2%(?) of players have killed uber elder? And its not hard to do, the whole game is trivial combat wise. Its just a matter of actually playing the game long enough to get there... and so few people do.
    Well...hasn't POE been a community game for trading and builds for a long time though?

    Not to mention that the reality of modern gaming is that it's inextricably tied to youtube, forums, and streaming.

    I agree there probably could be better explanations or tooltips in-game. But at the same time...google is a thing. A person who wants to figure everything out for themselves is choosing to not use available tools, even if those tools are not in-game.

    I just don't see it as a big deal. And I don't agree that most players don't look things up. I think it's actually the opposite, especially in a game as complex as POE. Most people aren't doing the trial and error to make their own builds from scratch, and probably personalize their build off an existing guide.

  7. #11687
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Well...hasn't POE been a community game for trading and builds for a long time though?
    Yes, that's not a positive thing.

    Not to mention that the reality of modern gaming is that it's inextricably tied to youtube, forums, and streaming.
    Even with the prevalence this is still not the case for the majority of players. Most people don't consume this media, which was the point.

    But at the same time...google is a thing.
    This is again the point, expecting players to tab out of your game to figure out the most rudimentary of things via 3rd party sources is bad game design and not something the majority of players ever do. They'd sooner drop your game than do this.

    I just don't see it as a big deal.
    Neither do the devs, so it is what it is. Reasons why the game will forever remain niche and never achieve success at the scale of something like diablo despite having no real competition for the last so many years.

    And I don't agree that most players don't look things up.
    Its not a matter of opinion.
    "I've carefully played this game to an endless despair"

  8. #11688
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    Yes, that's not a positive thing.
    How so? Genuinely curious. The game has a SSF for people like me who want that experience. But I don't see how having a thriving economy, and resource for build ideas, is harmful.

    But I'm by no means a super expert, so I'd be interested in an expansion on the idea.


    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    Even with the prevalence this is still not the case for the majority of players. Most people don't consume this media, which was the point.
    Based on what?

    I don't mean to be adversarial about this, but the number of times I've been accused of vocal minority, or seen someone claim "most people" about anything, it makes me ask for clarification.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    This is again the point, expecting players to tab out of your game to figure out the most rudimentary of things via 3rd party sources is bad game design and not something the majority of players ever do. They'd sooner drop your game than do this.
    Eh...to me this sorta falls under the category of "then the game isn't for them". I mean, up until thw dungeon journal, raids in WoW also didn't have tutorials, and even with the dungeon journal people still look to the leading raid teams for guidance. And LFR is so dumbed down that you can AFK through it without any guidance at all.

    Getting to mapping doesn't require anything special. You can slop your way to it with almost any skill. I equate this to LFR difficulty, or "entry-level". Going further into mapping amd clearing the atlas or shaper is the clear realm of higher end play that is sort of expected that you'd need to do some research.

    It just doesn't seem out of the ordinary to me. But I could be the exception here, and not the rule. Especially considering how often I have unpopular views on other subjects.

  9. #11689
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    Yes, that's not a positive thing.
    In your opinion. I think the fact that the game doesn't hand hold you is a GREAT thing, it makes you either figure stuff out on your own or, if you can't, wait until someone else does.

    What is the fun if the devs come out and say "this is how you do the new atlas"? I'd rather figure it out through trial and error and I'm progressing mine quite well without even looking looking at a video guide.

  10. #11690
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    Even with the prevalence this is still not the case for the majority of players. Most people don't consume this media, which was the point.

    This is again the point, expecting players to tab out of your game to figure out the most rudimentary of things via 3rd party sources is bad game design and not something the majority of players ever do. They'd sooner drop your game than do this.
    You don't need to look it up on the internet to figure it out. You can experiment in-game and work out how the Atlas works. The only way it won't work is if you softlock yourself by socketing all your stones into a region and then having a conqueror claim the region and prevent you from progressing naturally.

    This is the difference between the game giving you the tools you need to work it out and leading you by the nose. PoE is not a game that should be leading you by the nose.
    If you are particularly bold, you could use a Shiny Ditto. Do keep in mind though, this will infuriate your opponents due to Ditto's beauty. Please do not use Shiny Ditto. You have been warned.

  11. #11691
    I am Murloc! unfilteredJW's Avatar
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    I’m not asking to be led by the nose.

    Giving me a puzzle with no picture to work with is bad design. And like I said, it’s not the only one that suffers from this. Does it make me enjoy the game a little less? Sure. But it’s still a good game. It’s just made some real garbage choices that keep it from being better.
    Last edited by unfilteredJW; 2019-12-26 at 10:55 PM.
    Wall of LOLs
    Quote Originally Posted by Sulla View Post
    Yeah I know. It'll take another 2 years + to knock Rozz and Flarelane down to size as Endus eventually was. Not worth the effort. My lack of posting here recently has been sort of 2-fold. One is because it's extremely boring watching the crazies come to the inevitable conclusion that they've failed. TDS seems to be an awfully persistent disease. Two is because I'm saving my infraction points to unleash unholy Hell when Trump wins re-election.

  12. #11692
    Quote Originally Posted by LilSaihah View Post
    You don't need to look it up on the internet to figure it out. You can experiment in-game and work out how the Atlas works. The only way it won't work is if you softlock yourself by socketing all your stones into a region and then having a conqueror claim the region and prevent you from progressing naturally.

    This is the difference between the game giving you the tools you need to work it out and leading you by the nose. PoE is not a game that should be leading you by the nose.
    The point being that the majority of players never get anywhere near maps, we know the majority of players never make it past act 2. A large number of players never make it past act 1, I can't help but wonder how many of those might have made it farther if the game wasn't so obtuse.

    Also I don't get why people always need to speak in extremes, as if its not possible to make an intuitive system where the player can figure things out on their own without 3rd party guides but not feel like they're completely lost the majority of the time or like they need all of the information on how a system works up front before they've had time to engage with it.
    "I've carefully played this game to an endless despair"

  13. #11693
    Yeah, I can fill some holes for stuff like resistances to save myself a few points for now. Will be fun tinkering around with that longer term.

  14. #11694
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    How so? Genuinely curious.
    Because its using those things as a crutch, instead of things to complement the game.

    Based on what?

    I don't mean to be adversarial about this, but the number of times I've been accused of vocal minority, or seen someone claim "most people" about anything, it makes me ask for clarification.
    Look up any statistics on the number of players who actively go to forums not unlike the one we're on for a given game vs the number of players who play said game.

    Eh...to me this sorta falls under the category of "then the game isn't for them".
    Which again isn't a positive thing. Why would you want to push players away from your game before they even get started because you wouldn't make a decent tutorial or introduction to said game.

    I mean, up until thw dungeon journal, raids in WoW also didn't have tutorials, and even with the dungeon journal people still look to the leading raid teams for guidance. And LFR is so dumbed down that you can AFK through it without any guidance at all.
    Vanilla WoW was made at a very different time back when information wasn't anywhere near as prevalent and bosses had all of 2 mechanics. This isn't exactly apt.

    Getting to mapping doesn't require anything special. You can slop your way to it with almost any skill. I equate this to LFR difficulty, or "entry-level". Going further into mapping amd clearing the atlas or shaper is the clear realm of higher end play that is sort of expected that you'd need to do some research.
    Yes, and the number of times I've had to explain that to a newer player or even veteran players is insane to me because they don't understand that the power creep in this game is ridiculous and your build often doesn't matter unless you're doing things very very wrong.

    But that's the thing.. lots of players never get a handle on the systems and fall off loooong before then.

    It just doesn't seem out of the ordinary to me. But I could be the exception here, and not the rule. Especially considering how often I have unpopular views on other subjects.
    It isn't out of the ordinary, there are lots of games doing this sort of thing. That doesn't mean its a good thing though, they can do better.
    "I've carefully played this game to an endless despair"

  15. #11695
    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    Because its using those things as a crutch, instead of things to complement the game.
    But having a thriving community for builds and trading IS complimenting the game. I'm not sure I'm computing what you're getting at....


    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    Look up any statistics on the number of players who actively go to forums not unlike the one we're on for a given game vs the number of players who play said game.
    I don't even know how to phrase that kind of google search.. And besides, you're the one making the claim. Perhaps you should provide some data or links. Or maybe at least point me in the right direction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    Which again isn't a positive thing. Why would you want to push players away from your game before they even get started because you wouldn't make a decent tutorial or introduction to said game.
    Because, like the Dark Souls example earlier, games don't have to be for everyone. Path of Exile is meant to be more of a thinking game. You need to really sit down and figure out your build and overall strategy, to one degree or another. Or at the very least, research what other people are doing.

    If you want a game that's easier, with a much lower bar, then there's Diablo 3 to fill that niche.


    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    Vanilla WoW was made at a very different time back when information wasn't anywhere near as prevalent and bosses had all of 2 mechanics. This isn't exactly apt.
    There were two points there:

    1) People figured out WoW before there was easy availability of information.
    2) Even in modern times when there's an easy-to-access guides and tutorials within the game, people still look to 3rd party youtube strategy guides for how to do everything. Builds, dungeons, leveling, or raids.

    Even when the game provides the information, people are STILL going out of the game to find information. POE just seems to recognize that fact.


    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    Yes, and the number of times I've had to explain that to a newer player or even veteran players is insane to me because they don't understand that the power creep in this game is ridiculous and your build often doesn't matter unless you're doing things very very wrong.

    But that's the thing.. lots of players never get a handle on the systems and fall off loooong before then.
    You keep saying "lots of players". But who are these players, and did they enjoy the part of the game they DID play? Did they quit out of frustration at not being able to figure out the game, or did they simply get bored because they got far enough into the game to realize it wasn't up their alley?

    It really seems like you're making a mountain out of a molehill here.





    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    It isn't out of the ordinary, there are lots of games doing this sort of thing. That doesn't mean its a good thing though, they can do better.
    And what would that "Do better" look like?

  16. #11696

  17. #11697
    I still wish PoE had some kind of sandbox. Doesn't even need to be a sandbox to show if a build is valid. Just a sandbox to see if some skills are buffed by talent xy.
    The tags on the skills are not reliable.
    "Go with the tags" just doesn't work. "Yeah this skill is ment to be used with mines, thats why it has the mine tag, but it's damage isn't buffed by 'increased mine damage' "
    A simple example is infernal legion with fire and AoE tag, but if you new to the game it's hard to understand how minion damage is scaled.


    If you wanna build meme-builds you really have to tinker a lot, but on a positive side.. the support from GGG is awesome. They answer you every question within minutes, so at least I'm save from wasting days for nothing just because I didn't know talent x doesn't buff skill y.

    I'm on my 6th build this season and while 4 of them worked, this is the first one I enjoy. (stormbrand assassine with power charges and 100% crit)

  18. #11698
    So I think I've "fixed" my mapping...by downranking maps across the board and starting at T8 and slowly working up. It's still super slow, but at least I'm starting to get higher tier maps...I'll just have to figure out how to start handling the transition to 3 stones per region since I don't have enough for that yet. And I can't even get more stones until I start spawning 4 stone versions so that's gonna be a ways off...

    Oh well. Hit 90 now that I fixed my spectral throw build a bit.

    Dropped Vaal Pact since I didn't really need the extra leech. Don't have a ton of regen but it's been useful so far. Also swapped slower projectiles for hypothermia since I'm chilling stuff with cold damage. It's a bit of a damage loss, but being able to stand at max range and not constantly worry about dying is nice. Dropped point blank too.

    Now continues the painfully slow map grind (with some delve mixed in since this character is perfect for delve with hp/mana on hit and stupid amounts of speed) while building up some more currency to start bigger upgrades.

  19. #11699

  20. #11700
    @SirCowdog The posts are just expanding and taking up like half a page each now so I'ma just let it die.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nasuuna View Post
    i got a doctor carddddd
    You're rich!
    "I've carefully played this game to an endless despair"

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