1. #13761
    Ended up catching some of the podcast and it was pretty good. Didn't agree with Chris on a lot which is fine, and it makes sense he's the kind of masochist into the "hard mode" where supposedly the idea is that even something as simple as a magic item with a low life and single res roll will be valuable. Hilarious that he talked about, "using your chaos to buy those" and then instantly corrected himself with "if you even have any chaos". That mode is absolutely not for me, but if they can keep it with fairly low overhead I think it's a great addition to the game. I'm just not confident that they can quad-track - standard, "hard mode", PoE 2, and BR all at the same time.

    I liked a lot of what Chris had to say in terms of things the team wants to do, finding "good" fixes rather than just and easy one, and a lot of his responses, too. But I'll wait to see them implemented.

    Fair amount of time was devoted to discussing Absolution as well and how it launched in such a terrible state. Apparently a few QA folks did flag the skill, but most said it was performing fine which is...concerning. It's still pretty trash even after the buff. I hear Chris on not wanting to do signed NDA's with the actual threat of legal consequences for alpha testers in order to get more folks into testing leagues early, but they really need more testers looking at this stuff to make sure Absolution/Reaper problems don't reoccur.

    Honestly, it sounds like they've set themselves on a hellish production schedule to boot. Leagues sound like they still have fairly meaningful/significant work/balancing being done right up until they launch and managing time across even PoE/PoE 2/BR is increasingly challenging.

    I get why they won't do it, but damn do I want to see another test of a 4 month league to see if them having an extra month to work on a league delivers similar results. I still think it's one of the better leagues they've launched overall in terms of quality, and not just the ritual mechanic.

    Which speaking of, I'm finding myself already burning out hard on expeditions. They're just so...bleh. Not fun to set up/do, and most of the time I forget to even go to the masters to buy shit. Crafter guy can be stupid strong, but I've got terrible luck/am bad at it. Currency dude is FANTASTIC, I just never have any reroll currency. Gambler lady is pretty shit, but I've got a million reroll currencies so dumping a bunch for some decent bases in the hopes for an influenced item or a good unique ain't bad. Just disappointing since most of the time I end up with an inventory full of garbage.

    It's got me thinking about league mechanics in every map overall and I'm honestly not a huge fan of it. I think it kinda burns folks out on that mechanic and makes it feel like you're obligated to engage with it. I've been loving how we can stack league mechanics since the Maven atlas update and juice up the content we enjoy most. I'd love to see that expanded, and league mechanics not being in every map but being more heavily weighted so you'll see them far more often. That way they still say a little bit "special". Ritual is a great example, as by mid-league I was pretty burnt on them and they were no longer "exciting". However now? Fuck yeah I'm going to take those Maven passives, and I get a little bit excited whenever one pops up in my map.

    And I'll need to re-listen to this section, but it sounded like 3.17 will have some big endgame changes and they're thinking about everything from reducing the map down to 4 regions, reducing the overall maps down to around 100, and a few other things. This all sounds bloody great (as long as we can keep access to the existing Maven passives!). As more and more is added map progression feels more and more like an obligatory slog until you get to the "real endgame" of being able to farm/sustain T14+ maps with unlocked Maven passives so you can work on building up the currency/items needed to start running juiced content and uber bosses and shit.

  2. #13762
    I think I've been terminally spoiled by summoners. Played a cold carrion golem / SO spectres last league and content kind of just folded once I hit about 30 ex invested into the build.

    Tried bleed glad, lancing steel glad, deadeye ele hit wander, forbidden rite totems, spider guardian so far this league and disliked all of them - felt like a struggle against runic mobs / bosses. Ended up making an animate weapon summoner and scaling him with cold damage again, and all the other classes cant even compare in terms of ease of use, survivability and general gameplay. Shit just falls over dead from screens away while I sit in my phase run and most mobs don't even notice I am there.

  3. #13763
    Watched entire Podcast, agree with pretty much everything Chris said.

    The best thing he said there was about "buffering" splinters and scrolls, like accumulating drops in 10 then dropping entire stack of 10. That would be AWESOME solution.

    I won't invest too much time into masochist mode but will defo try it. I like that this mode will (potentially) allow the mainline to be more loose.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile...ssion/h8kj00t/

    Not gonna copypaste it but my fav parts:

    Increased mitigations from Pantheon powers
    Hard mode
    3.17 New Endgame
    4 regions, 100 maps
    Merge redundant Maven passives
    Experimenting with not rendering filtered items
    Harvest crafts that upgrade to rare will be combined with reforges
    Changes to Veiled Mods - most will be fully unlocked (all tiers) in one unveil
    Monster crits may be adjusted to make it less spiky
    Last edited by kaminaris; 2021-08-13 at 05:49 AM.
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  4. #13764
    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    I won't invest too much time into masochist mode but will defo try it. I like that this mode will (potentially) allow the mainline to be more loose.
    Care to elaborate? Didn't follow the podcast, so i assume it's some sort of optional hard mode?
    Non ti fidar di me se il cuor ti manca.

  5. #13765
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Care to elaborate? Didn't follow the podcast, so i assume it's some sort of optional hard mode?
    Very brutal

    Significantly reduced item and currency drop rates

    No master crafting/veiled items

    Low development cost (just disabling several functions)
    Summary from the reddit thread. Basically, imagine basically nothing drops, to the point where simply having gear with a few linked sockets would be pretty solid, and a magic item great. Same goes for currency. And your crafting bench is dead. And monsters are harder.

    They spent a bit of time talking about it, but it's basically just an uber-masochist mode for people that like to suffer through a slow paced, grueling, deadly ARPG.

    Chris framed it as something that could be coming, with the intent of it being something that wouldn't take them much time and would just be another option for people who hate fun, like him. I kid though, whatever floats folks boats.

  6. #13766
    Quote Originally Posted by Coldkil View Post
    Care to elaborate? Didn't follow the podcast, so i assume it's some sort of optional hard mode?
    To put it simply, a "flag" that you can activate on SC/HC SSF/Trade that will probably double the game modes from 4 -> 8.

    That will essentially turn droprates to minimal value and disable some of the game features that could produce powerful items.

    And yeah I mean we need more of low development cost options like this.
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  7. #13767
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Summary from the reddit thread. Basically, imagine basically nothing drops, to the point where simply having gear with a few linked sockets would be pretty solid, and a magic item great. Same goes for currency. And your crafting bench is dead. And monsters are harder.
    Almost sounds interesting to me. (except the really hard difficulty part). I'd love a Path of Exile that had no crafting, and drops were buffed so that actually useful things would drop.

  8. #13768
    Quote Originally Posted by solinari6 View Post
    Almost sounds interesting to me. (except the really hard difficulty part). I'd love a Path of Exile that had no crafting, and drops were buffed so that actually useful things would drop.
    Yeah...it's very much not that at all either. Drops are nerfed even harder. Chris was talking about a pair of magic boots with a like, a single digit life roll and a single digit res on it being fairly valuable.

  9. #13769
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Yeah...it's very much not that at all either. Drops are nerfed even harder. Chris was talking about a pair of magic boots with a like, a single digit life roll and a single digit res on it being fairly valuable.
    Yeah, I know... but it just made me realize how much I'd enjoy PoE with drops only, but NICE drops. I've put in over 800 hours last year, and still can't figure out much crafting beyond: orb of transmutation, orb of alteration, royal orb + maybe 1 craft table craft. I just don't find crafting fun.

  10. #13770
    The Unstoppable Force Kelimbror's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaminaris View Post
    To put it simply, if you are not willing to learn and/or not having fun while learning and exploring PoE is not for you.
    It objectively *is* bad design. Complexity shouldn't exist due to scarcity of information or difficulty accessing said information. I didn't say I didn't enjoy the game, merely pointing out how ridiculous it is you're suggesting 'simply Google' solves everything -- and now you're doubling down on the hypocrisy that it's not really true, but that just means the game isn't for you.

    I pegged you as an elitist with no objective views on game design pretty much on the head. You tell others not to assume people are stupid, but then defend the game's hidden tomes of information as some worshipful quality of the game. So which is it....do you value gatekeeping in your video games to your own self worth or do you truly value the game's complexity/depth?

    If the latter, then you should examine how you are speaking, because your foot was in your mouth from your first post.
    BAD WOLF

  11. #13771
    Quote Originally Posted by solinari6 View Post
    Yeah, I know... but it just made me realize how much I'd enjoy PoE with drops only, but NICE drops.
    Bruh, talk to me. I'm bloody tired of 99.9% of drops being total garbage. At least with harvest (even in its post-league, pre-nerf state) you could pick up something with a few good rolls and finish crafting a decent item that way. Now that's pretty much dead with the harvest nerfs.

    Making drops satisfying is something GGG needs to seriously work on. Both from a quantity/QoL standpoint (WHY DO WE HAVE SO MANY FUCKING FRAGMENTS) and to deal with the absolutely insane range of mods that can exist now that dilute any chance of much decent dropping. The only way around it is either A) Trade (not Chris Wilson approved) or B) Keep farming, spend currency crafting, learn optimal farming methods that you may hate but are at least profitable.

    I feel like drops get worse every league on average, I found a few decent items that have sold for around 80c each but that's pretty much all I've been able to sell given how bad most shit I find is. A few 5c jewels and armor pieces here and there, but largely I can't find any currency and can't make any trading, so I'm stuck in a bit of a rut as I slog through the last stage of conq's before Sirus 1. Fuck I hate map sustain issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by solinari6 View Post
    I've put in over 800 hours last year, and still can't figure out much crafting beyond: orb of transmutation, orb of alteration, royal orb + maybe 1 craft table craft. I just don't find crafting fun.
    It's...complicated, and they nerfed Safehouse exalts this past league. I don't know too much about it outside of it being time consuming, expensive, and sounding like a deeply, deeply unfun process for me. I play the game to have fun, so I don't mind slower progression and some issues here and there because I'm not doing all the "optimal" stuff like farming heist (seriously, fuck heist. super profitable but I hate it), but it feels like if you're not doing all that then you're severely hamstringing yourself.

    Doesn't help that endgame is a bloated mess of awful right now, with WAY too much that you need to do (atlas clearing, crafting unlocks via maps, crafting unlocks via delve, crafting unlocks via Jun, heist quests, farm Blight to get oils for anoints, atlas progression, Maven progression etc. etc. etc. etc.) Because at least for me, the game really gets "good" when you're at T14+ maps with an unlocked Maven and getting league mechanic pops left and right. It's exciting. It's challenging/risky. It's engaging. You actually get decent drops with all those bonuses every once in a while! Really hoping those endgame changes Chris talked about come to fruition, even bringing the atlas down to 100 maps and 4 conq regions would make a HUGE dent in the endgame grind.

  12. #13772
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelimbror View Post
    It objectively *is* bad design. Complexity shouldn't exist due to scarcity of information or difficulty accessing said information. I didn't say I didn't enjoy the game, merely pointing out how ridiculous it is you're suggesting 'simply Google' solves everything -- and now you're doubling down on the hypocrisy that it's not really true, but that just means the game isn't for you.

    I pegged you as an elitist with no objective views on game design pretty much on the head. You tell others not to assume people are stupid, but then defend the game's hidden tomes of information as some worshipful quality of the game. So which is it....do you value gatekeeping in your video games to your own self worth or do you truly value the game's complexity/depth?

    If the latter, then you should examine how you are speaking, because your foot was in your mouth from your first post.
    Its not objective, don't use term "objective" when speaking opinions.

    First of all. There is no such thing as "scarcity of information", everything is available within 5 seconds on putting query input to google. You can argue it should have been in game but it really doesn't change anything. Information itself is there and there is PLENTY of it.

    Second, its not at all difficult to access. Having a working browser doesn't mean its hard to access. Even if it would be in game you would still have to search for it. Basic stuff IS available in game:



    Funniest thing is even if entire wiki would be in game people would still complain they have to "search for information".

    Elitist also doesn't mean what you think it means. I do not gatekeep anything. I do not think that best items should be only available for hardest challenges or bosses (rather the opposite, everyone should have access to everything - and they do, because of trade). But I do think that PoE was made for people that enjoy learning new stuff. So if you don't like that its not going to be a game for you.

    I am merely pointing flaws in those ridiculous complaints that somehow "searching for information" is hard.

    What you really want is making game shallow enough so you wouldn't have to search for anything. It is not possible to make complex game that is also "self explaining".
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  13. #13773
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Making drops satisfying is something GGG needs to seriously work on. Both from a quantity/QoL standpoint (WHY DO WE HAVE SO MANY FUCKING FRAGMENTS) and to deal with the absolutely insane range of mods that can exist now that dilute any chance of much decent dropping. The only way around it is either A) Trade (not Chris Wilson approved) or B) Keep farming, spend currency crafting, learn optimal farming methods that you may hate but are at least profitable.
    You would think it wouldn't be so difficult to create some kind of drop algorithm with smarts that says: "Oh, you are clearly doing some kind of impale build. Here's a better chance to get drops with impale chance on them" Or "Hey, you're doing summoner crap? I'll throw some extra minion damage crap your way" etc ... At least to somewhat tailer drops to be a little more meaningful to the character you are running.

  14. #13774
    Quote Originally Posted by solinari6 View Post
    You would think it wouldn't be so difficult to create some kind of drop algorithm with smarts that says: "Oh, you are clearly doing some kind of impale build. Here's a better chance to get drops with impale chance on them" Or "Hey, you're doing summoner crap? I'll throw some extra minion damage crap your way" etc ... At least to somewhat tailer drops to be a little more meaningful to the character you are running.
    I wouldn't want tailored drops like that at all, and I doubt the community would either. Sure, it'd be nice for a bit, but I had huge issues with that in D3 since it really limits drop diversity and what kind of items you can find for trade (not an issue in D3). Which would hurt, if you're playing a more niche build that doesn't have desirable gear for trade then you're functionally fucked in the trading economy and would have to resort to currency trading. Doubly so for alts, since a lot of folks league start with a fairly strong/cheap build to get some currency (via drops and trades) and maybe find a few decent starter items for their "main" character once they're done with their league starter. Triply so for trade overall, just look at this league with 18% of folks on trade playing SST. Sure it comes in a few varieties (bleed, cold conversion, crit etc. etc.), but there's a fair amount of gear overlap, and the market would be absolutely SATURATED with SST-oriented gear, with a huge lack of gear available for less popular/played builds.

    There's been tons of discussion in the community about options - limiting bases so that low level basis stop dropping/drop far less often at high levels, cutting off low mod tier rolls at certain ilvls so there's a higher "minimum" roll, not dropping/rendering bad white/blue items etc. etc. Chris talked about some options on the podcast as well (Disclaimer: Everything he said on the podcast were things they are "thinking/talking about that are absolutely in no way, shape, or form promises or things that they will actually be doing), I'm hopeful they do something because between the performance hit from the game rendering hundreds of items on the floor that don't even show up through your loot filter to the fact that picking up non ilvl 86/influenced items, especially if they're not the best base, usually feels like a waste of a few clicks and a wisdom scroll : /

  15. #13775
    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    I wouldn't want tailored drops like that at all, and I doubt the community would either. Sure, it'd be nice for a bit, but I had huge issues with that in D3 since it really limits drop diversity and what kind of items you can find for trade (not an issue in D3)....
    yeah, I don't pretend to know all that stuff about what's right for everyone and balancing things and what not ... all I know is about what's fun for me, and the current game isn't anymore, so I quit. Just this talk of a "hard" mode has me jonesing for an "easy" mode, that is just focused on FUN. Fuck balance, leaderboards, all that crap. Just give us a sandbox to have FUN in. Useful drops are what is really missing for me in this game ... I don't know the right way to get there, but it needs to happen before I come back (I know, GGG doesn't care about me )

  16. #13776
    Yeah, I'd really like a "proper SSF" for PoE too (as in better loot). I just want to be able to find good items and not have to rely on trading, or crafting playing such a huge role. But it appears PoE is not heading in that direction, so hopefully D4 or Lost Ark can do that aspect better.
    "In order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must be intolerant of intolerance." Paradox of tolerance

  17. #13777
    Quote Originally Posted by Dezerte View Post
    Yeah, I'd really like a "proper SSF" for PoE too (as in better loot). I just want to be able to find good items and not have to rely on trading, or crafting playing such a huge role. But it appears PoE is not heading in that direction, so hopefully D4 or Lost Ark can do that aspect better.
    I agree with this, but ONLY if SSF becomes a PERMANENT toggle. A better drops/easier mode would destroy the economy since now you can bring out characters from there.

    While i don't like the way the game is headed right now (but i'm waiting for poe2 actually) i don't want to change it if most of the playerbase is fine with the game as it is.

    Right now i'm just keeping an eye on Lost Ark. But that's an mmo, it just plays like an arpg. From what i tried in alpha and checked online, it seems it's going to suit me.
    Non ti fidar di me se il cuor ti manca.

  18. #13778
    SSF doesn't necessarily mean better drop rates. That is just saying you want better drops but either don't want to play with others or simply want to 'soft cheat'. In a certain sense.

    A lot of the appeal implicit with SSF is making do with what you get. Certainly in the case of POE that was how the mode has been presented thus far.

    Not opposed to a sandbox, roll-your-own-rules-of-the-game, mode of POE personally. I think that would be neat actually. But I also do not think it is fair to say that SSF implies a better drop rate of X, Y, or Z.

    That is just two different things; don't want the interaction but want access to the stuff gained via interaction.

  19. #13779
    There is no such thing as "proper SSF as in better loot". Actually it does somewhat exist in D3 and it makes loot damn boring.

    Whole point of SSF is to make use of what you get, not get anything you want. There is a trade for that.

    You absolutely can get good items in SSF but its hard to get really good ones and that is the point.

    That being said PoE has some issues with itemization and some of them could be solved by:

    1.
    ---

    Removing low tier rolls on high tier bases. I think 86+ boots shouldn't even be able to roll complete garbage like +10 move speed or +10 life or actually anything that is super low tier.

    Slightly weighting of mods per ilvls, so ex Low tier boots ex ilvl 50 stays as it is BUT ilvl 86+ has higher gravity towards 35%:



    That is JUST an example, instead of 0.5% it might be like 0.2% depending on mod and stuff.

    2.
    ---

    remove useless mods or make them not totally useless. Like increased rarity (see below), reduced attr requirement.

    3.
    ---

    Make use of item rarity and quantity better. This is something GGG has been considering. Instead of dropping tons of garbage, defer the loot and slap "sanctified fossils" per 10 pair of boots. And make a damned use of rarity as its absolutely dead mod.
    For example when doing map with +100 rarity, give a +1% chance per tier to roll.
    So.
    0% rarity = boots with 35% movement speed 2.87%,
    100% rarity = boots with 35% movement speed 4.5% chance.
    (its still not gonna guarantee the rest of mods wont be useless but at least its it will have a chance to not be a complete trash.

    Apply rarity to currencies/shards as well.

    4.
    ---

    Stop dropping trash bases in 14+ maps or rebalance existing ones to not suck compared to other ones. Like for example pure armor base is always going to be astral plate.

    Overall this should make loot on the ground actually maybe worth picking up as it for now, people just filter them out.
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  20. #13780
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Not opposed to a sandbox, roll-your-own-rules-of-the-game, mode of POE personally. I think that would be neat actually. But I also do not think it is fair to say that SSF implies a better drop rate of X, Y, or Z
    That was my whole point. If GGG wants, they can make something like that with the caveat you cannot bring out characters from there. I totally don't want the destruction of current gameplay loop.

    I'm not an expert of PoE but it's not about "proper" SSF. SSF is just an additional game mode one can choose to play, and doesn't have to change things. But i think since they added custom.leagues or whatever they're called, they can also make it so one can create its own sandbox league with the caveat that nothing goes out from there (and have "standard sandbox" so you can keep your characters). Maybe is just a stupid idea.
    @kaminaris not really that of an expert of PoE but you're basically saying that there's too much bloat of loot at endgame so many drops that would be useful are actually trash due to multiple reasons. Reason why loot filters exist.
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