[Megathread] Path of Exile

[BeepBoo]

How do you have a pinnacle boss if it doesn't require investment?

? You have those bosses work just like the campaign bosses where you can complete them in bad leveling gear and have a direct path to them. I'm saying pinnacle gameplay, skill wise, caps out long before pinnacle gameplay, gear wise, because skill this game has a pretty low skill ceiling on mechanics. If you're not asking for me as a player to get better at your game to beat a boss and instead are just asking me to waste time so number go up to be able to do that, your game is wasting my time unless the things you're asking me to do have novelty associated with them. Maps do not have novelty. While those pinnacle boss fights might not be asking more from me as a player, they at least have novelty to make them interesting.

[Volatilis]

? You have those bosses work just like the campaign bosses where you can complete them in bad leveling gear and have a direct path to them. I'm saying pinnacle gameplay, skill wise, caps out long before pinnacle gameplay, gear wise, because skill this game has a pretty low skill ceiling on mechanics. If you're not asking for me as a player to get better at your game to beat a boss and instead are just asking me to waste time so number go up to be able to do that, your game is wasting my time unless the things you're asking me to do have novelty associated with them. Maps do not have novelty. While those pinnacle boss fights might not be asking more from me as a player, they at least have novelty to make them interesting.

Mmm. That sounds like a design nightmare. Making something challenging for people who could be 200 hours in or 12 hours in. That just screams of one shot mechanisms on mistake which isn't a fun challenge

And they would have to be damage sponges to make up for difference in damage potential of people so a 20/30minute fight with no mistakes? Again anti fun.

[BeepBoo]

Mmm. That sounds like a design nightmare. Making something challenging for people who could be 200 hours in or 12 hours in. That just screams of one shot mechanisms on mistake which isn't a fun challenge

You're not understanding what I'm saying. I clearly say I want to not have to map or power-creep my character to god status to do or see all the bosses. Ergo, players who want to do maps wouldn't be waiting until they were gods to do said bosses. They'd be doing maps strictly because they like the gameplay of maps and because they like the idea of chasing progression. Why are they chasing progression? No idea, but some people seem to be married tot he idea of always progressing their character no matter what.

If you're saying they need BOTH long-term gear goals AND long-term boss goals to use that gear on then... no. What you're actually saying is you just want a game where you have to put in 1000 hours to get an achievement so you can feel good about the fact you blew 1000 hours versus someone who didn't "invest" as much time in the game as you. And I've said this in every game that has had permagrind mechanics that I've ever played: Fuck. Those. Players.

[Fencers]

If you're a casual you're happy to just beat the campaign you wouldn't be chasing for an enigma or even know what it is.

The casual D2 players would also be less likely to compete for Ladder or engage with trade/econ.

It is OK to have things for minorities like action rpgs where you can attract the attention of people who will spend 200 hours trying for a 0.01% drop. Those people are more likely to spend on the cash shop because there's more investment. And your average Joe will drop out and go back to candy crush once they have thier fun with the season anyway

Totally agree.

A smooth progression from the start of the campaign to the end is more useful for engaging casual players. The endgame ought to be a long-term, hardcore-focused activity.

In an interview with Josh Hayes, Chris Wilson said the type of player who opens the skill tree in POE1 and quits was not the type of player that would have ever stuck with POE1 long term to begin with and their focus group testing had borne that out.

Running the endgame infinitely, pushing ladder, and engaging in temporary economic markets are unlikely to be the juice that fuels these hypothetical & mythical casual players in the first place.

An understandable narrative, manageable combat, and a consistent feeling of improvement from start-to-end have proven to be aspects that drive sales of many other genres and the Diablo franchise. I don't think the disparity of Enigma/teleport among hardcore and casual players makes any real difference for consumers looking for a week or two of hack & slash gameplay.

[BeepBoo]

The casual D2 players would also be less likely to compete for Ladder or engage with trade/econ.

AH! That's a perfect example of what they could give infinigrind nerds. Give them a ladder for something. Don't lock content behind it, just give them a badge of honor they can wear showing how cool/broken their 5head build is and how many servers per second they're clearing.

[Cyclone Jack]

As a player who likes skill endeavors and hates "grinds", I'd love to be able to face all the pinnacle bosses the game has to offer, but the campaign is the only reasonable thing I can finish because it's the only thing that respects my time and has a clear, short-enough path to complete.


Agreed, but let those people clear maps endlessly because they enjoy that chase for .1% power bonus and because they like time sucks. Don't lock FUN things on the other side of that trash.

Why shouldn't players who push for those tiny incremental upgrades, and who invest the time and effort to eke out every bit of power they can, get some extra content that challenges even those builds?

[Fencers]

It doesn't make sense for a pinnacle encounter to be accessible easily or linearly in POE. The reward of playing intensely is the pinnacle boss encounter. Player desire and design intent are at odds here.

[BeepBoo]

Why shouldn't players who push for those tiny incremental upgrades, and who invest the time and effort to eke out every bit of power they can, get some extra content that challenges even those builds?

First off, they don't "challenge even those builds."
People at that stage usually explode these bosses without issue. My gripe isn't that you need that level of gear/build to beat them. You don't, but even if you did, I'd just buy currency and trade for it if that is all it took (Yes yes, "ILLEGAL!" save it). It's that to even get access, you have to waste life for no other reason than because developers want to string you along to keep running their repetitive shit so it becomes a lifestyle and you're more likely to spend since they don't just sell leagues like a normal product. Again, they're banking on the same psychological things gacha devs do. Does anyone actually LAUDE gacha model as good or does everyone just see it as an evil they have to put up with to get the rest of the game for free?

Secondly, because if the only way to get a complete sense of fulfillment that you get out of other games is tucked behind that type of lifestyle, you're essentially saying "these are the only players we feel are worthy of getting that gratification." Cool, but also pass because if I'm never going to get what I want out of your game, I'm just going to get pissed and quit eventually. I'd rather just drop $60 on a game and get the full experience without the hassle.

Player desire and design intent are at odds here.

I don't generally think that's a good position for a game to be in. They should be perpetuating players towards those feel-good moments intentionally, not stringing you along as long as they can before you burn out without ever getting the satisfaction. Don't get me wrong, clearly the latter and milking players for all they're worth is a viable business model, I just question why PLAYERS support it.

Also, "playing intensely" does that mean people who play idler games 24/7 are "playing intensely"? My point being playing all the time doing low-effort things because your build is near-autopilot does not intense gameplay make. That's just dedication.

"It's the reward for being one of our most dedicated players" sure, but I'm not (and most players are not, even most of their own player base by league pop stats) interested in how much it's asking. It essentially demands being a job if you don't find those things fun.

"Why are you playing if you don't find those things fun?" because a lot of the rest of the game leading up to it IS fun. It just gets more and more boring, but my desire to feel complete is strong enough to put myself through at least some amount of pain. However, if they keep it like POE 1 I'll play it like POE1: complete the campaign once, try my hand at maybe 1 league half-heartedly, then quit a few weeks in and never come back in the next 11 year span.

"You're not the target audience" listen, if they're intentionally catering to nolyfers because they just like those people best and want to throw them a bone, cool. Grats on having someone cater to your desires I guess. However, I bet you ANY MONEY they could be more successful if they just lightened up and gave normal people who didn't want to blast maps 24/7 a way to get to complete all the BOSSES the game has to offer, they'd see more players for longer each league and thus more success/purchases. We'll never know until they try, but every other VASTLY more successful game kinda indicates that. My supposition is that's WHY the arpg market is so small and niche compared to other giants.

[Fencers]

I don't generally think that's a good position for a game to be in.

The problem would be the players, not the game. The intent of the designer is what you are buying into- it is their art.

They should be perpetuating players towards those feel-good moments intentionally, not stringing you along as long as they can before you burn out without ever getting the satisfaction.

Well, they are perpetuating those "feel-good" moments. It feels good to know how to take down Searing Exarch or Maven and to do so for many players. That's how GGG/POE does it, by having that encounter be the reward for one's effort.

Don't get me wrong, clearly the latter and milking players for all they're worth is a viable business model, I just question why PLAYERS support it.

Clearly, because it is fun and satisfying to those players.

There are many ways a game designer can challenge or engage players. None are necessarily better or worse than the other.

In POE1, the designers intended for the pinnacle encounters to work as they currently do. The player base generally enjoys this quite a lot in POE1 and as evidenced by the franchise's seasonal growth- GGG is successfully designing its game.

Also, "playing intensely" does that mean people who play idler games are "playing intensely"?

Sure. Absolutely.

My point being playing all the time doing low-effort things because your build is near-autopilot does not intense gameplay make.

This is a personal definition of "intense" for you. Whereas I was saying intensely meaning involving a lot of time or effort. Not the actual inputs or commands needed by the player.

One can say a player has played a game intensely whether they played for 100 hours with few command inputs or executed 100 command inputs for a few hours. These are both extreme effort/attention metrics.

[Cyclone Jack]

First off, they don't "challenge even those builds."
People at that stage usually explode these bosses without issue. My gripe isn't that you need that level of gear/build to beat them. You don't. It's that to even get access, you have to waste life for no other reason than because developers want to string you along to keep running their repetitive shit so it becomes a lifestyle and you're more likely to spend since they don't just sell leagues like a normal product. Again, they're banking on the same psychological things gacha devs do. Does anyone actually LAUDE gacha model as good or does everyone just see it as an evil they have to put up with to get the rest of the game for free?

Secondly, because if the only way to get a complete sense of fulfillment that you get out of other games is tucked behind that type of lifestyle, you're essentially saying "these are the only players we feel are worthy of getting that gratification." Cool, but also pass because if I'm never going to get what I want out of your game, I'm just going to get pissed and quit eventually. I'd rather just drop $60 on a game and get the full experience without the hassle.

In one breath, you say players need to no-life that 0.1% upgrade, in another breath you say that gear isn't needed. So, which is it? If the gear is not required, then why are you complaining? Just go do the content.

And what are they expecting the players to spend on? Every bit of content in the game is free. They sell a few stash tabs for convenience, the rest are cosmetics. What are you even complaining about here? You gonna take your $0 and go somewhere else?

I've been playing PoE1 since 0.1.0 Closed Beta. Do you know how many characters I've made? 100s. Do you know how many of them were able to do Atziri/Shaper/Elder/and all the other End Game Atlas Bosses that were added over the years? Like, maybe 10. I don't use builds, and I play whatever sounds fun at the time; and I typically don't trade unless I need a specific unique item for a build like Whispering Ice or Death's Oath. Some characters work, others...not so much. Heck, I've had characters that had a hard time doing Izaro, and dozens that never got all their Ascendancies, even characters that couldn't complete the campaign. LOL

These games have a plethora of content, and as such I don't see why I should need the ability to see every bit of optional, post-campaign content on every character. Heck, I'd even go so far as to say that not all characters should be able to complete the campaign, because people can, and will, make abysmally bad builds, and I speak from experience.

[BeepBoo]

The problem would be the players, not the game. The intent of the designer is what you are buying into- it is their art.

Depends on their level of success I'd say, but also I'm fine with companies being happy with whatever level of success they desire, so if they're happy, I suppose there's no reason to change. I was just hoping for POE2 to actually be different because of fat man saying it would.

In POE1, the designers intended for the pinnacle encounters to work as they currently do. The player base generally enjoys this quite a lot in POE1 and as evidenced by the franchise's seasonal growth- GGG is successfully designing its game.

I'd say the only appropriate way to judge that is by how many people actually COMPLETE said pinnacle encounters. If you can show me where those numbers are steadily increasing, cool, otherwise I'm going to say it's POE's seasonal mechanics that get people to go back, because we know most people never make it past the campaign (which you DO get to see seasonal mechanics in).

This is a personal definition of "intense" for you. Whereas I was saying intensely meaning involving a lot of time or effort. Not the actual inputs or commands needed by the player.

I don't know many people who would describe a candle flickering for a few days as intense versus a sudden explosion of a firework, but I suppose it doesn't really matter.

In one breath, you say players need to no-life that 0.1% upgrade, in another breath you say that gear isn't needed. So, which is it? If the gear is not required, then why are you complaining? Just go do the content.

No, that's you tacking on extra things to what I said. I would go challenge the boss RIGHT NOW *IF* I could. The problem is you need to clear 200 hours worth of bullshit, not to get gear, but because that's how the system works for you to even get access to the fucking boss. Wanna do mists man? 300 splinters or whatever the fuck. Took my friend who IS ABSOLUTELY a blaster nolyfer using spark and op stuff 120 hours. No thanks.

And what are they expecting the players to spend on?

Your lack of understanding on marketing isn't my problem to correct, but suffice to say the more a person plays a game and the more of a habbit it becomes, the more they want to improve that experience or feel unique, ergo, cosmetics and convenience is EXACTLY what they need to make to sell to people who play this game a shit ton. Nolyfers are ARPG's version of the gacha whale. I dislike both of those being the target market of money makers for a company for obvious reasons, although I understand why a company would settle on those as their money makers.

These games have a plethora of content, and as such I don't see why I should need the ability to see every bit of optional, post-campaign content on every character. Heck, I'd even go so far as to say that not all characters should be able to complete the campaign, because people can, and will, make abysmally bad builds, and I speak from experience.

I didn't say every character. I'd absolutely retool my build if it wasn't up to snuff to do these big bad bosses. No question. Again, it's simply wasting that much of my life to get there, not the actual boss itself. As fencers said, the boss is intended as the reward for being that dedicated. I dislike that because I'm a completionist looking to master a game, beat said game, and move on with my fucking life looking for that next hit of mastery/novelty. Hell, I don't even really need to be expected to improve my skills. Novelty and a fun system is all I need. I virtually didn't improve my wow skills at all after the first few years when I started mythic raiding. Same skill set 20 years later. Didn't matter because the combat was so satisfying in-and-of-itself that all I really needed was slightly different coats of paint in the form of new raids/dungeons/etc.

[Cyclone Jack]

I dislike that because I'm a completionist looking to master a game, beat said game, and move on with my fucking life looking for that next hit of mastery/novelty.

Then I suggest you never play Dwarf Fortress or Caves of Qud. LOL

The other thing I would suggest would be to simply...wait. PoE2 is v.0.1.0. Balance is all over the place. Drops are all over the place. And the end game Maps are the least tested aspect of the game currently. All of this was common knowledge prior to the EA launch. I'm sure we'll start seeing some sweeping changes in the coming weeks with multiple hotfixes a week. I doubt they'll make things too easy to complete, but they might knock that 120 hours down to 30 hours.

[BeepBoo]

This is also showing my knowledge (lack of, despite putting like 80 hours into POE1), but my nolyfe friend just informed me you can literally buy the keys off other players to access pinnacle bosses. That makes things infinitely more appealing to me and fixes my biggest gripe. Granted, I checked and the prices are pretty steep, but there are other methods of conquering that.

[Fencers]

I'd say the only appropriate way to judge that is by how many people actually COMPLETE said pinnacle encounters.

No. That makes no sense. Pinnacle bosses are intended as the peak content. It's not relevant if anyone ever completes that content.

If you can show me where those numbers are steadily increasing, cool, otherwise I'm going to say it's POE's seasonal mechanics that get people to go back, because we know most people never make it past the campaign (which you DO get to see seasonal mechanics in).

The Steam charts demonstrate an increase of players over time.

Yes, the seasonal mechanics draw players back. This is a separate thing from pinnacle bosses. You are conflating the two points;

1. Pinnacle content is intended to be exclusionary.
2. GGG's design decisions have been successful for the game.

A player desiring pinnacle content to be accessible to anyone is currently at odds with the intention of POE1. One may dislike that design choice but GGG is not wrong to have this type of design in the game. Their design decisions have yielded success for the game where exclusionary content of that specific type has always been present.

If we want to say we think GGG would be more successful if that pinnacle boss content was less exclusionary that is merely speculative. Perfectly fine to do. We do that all the time here- its all we do, really.

However, it doesn't make sense for those encounters to work within POE1 in any other way without a total restructuring of the endgame. Those encounters are, themselves, a reward for engaging with the endgame's hours-long "grind".

I don't know many people who would describe a candle flickering for a few days as intense versus a sudden explosion of a firework, but I suppose it doesn't really matter.

That's your interpretation of intense in this instance or as you would apply it to gameplay. Intense can mean extreme attention or effort. Not simply degree or strength.

[BeepBoo]

No. That makes no sense. Pinnacle bosses are intended as the peak content. It's not relevant if anyone ever completes that content.

"People playing specifically NOT this contend indicates this content is well designed and players like it!" How can they like something they've never even gotten to experience? I don't like labos because I've never gotten to drive one. Just because they're there and conceptually they sounds cool in my imagination doesn't qualify me to actually judge them.


The Steam charts demonstrate an increase of players over time.

Yes, the seasonal mechanics draw players back. This is a separate thing from pinnacle bosses. You are conflating the two points;

1. Pinnacle content is intended to be exclusionary.
2. GGG's design decisions have been successful for the game.

How is something like their overall design being popular relevant to a specific discussion about the design of their END GAME CONTENT? No one cares if their game is overall popular. That's like saying people love artifact farming in genshin because genshin is popular. That's simply not the case. Everyone fucking hates artifact farming and RNG.

Their design decisions have yielded success for the game where exclusionary content of that specific type has always been present.

BECAUSE OF that design or DESPITE that design? It matters. Well, it kinda doesn't, since I can buy my way into it off trade and skip maps after I grow tired of them.

[Fencers]

"People playing specifically NOT this contend indicates this content is well designed and players like it!" How can they like something they've never even gotten to experience?

This is also conflating.

The question you asked in that previous quote was why players support a type of design. The answer is clearly because they enjoy it. If the current design decisions are yielding success this would indicate GGG are doing something right in their design decisions in POE1.

The number of people who play a specific content type isn't relevant to ask or consider here.

These are two different points.

How is something like their overall design being popular relevant to a specific discussion about the design of their END GAME CONTENT?

The design of the game, which has excluding content, is successful.

That is the intent of the endgame pinnacle content currently.

Pretty cut and dry here these are two aspects.

BECAUSE OF that design or DESPITE that design? It matters. Well, it kinda doesn't, since I can buy my way into it off trade and skip maps after I grow tired of them.

I would absolutely say it is holistic regarding POE1.

This is one of the major issues of POE2, currently. The lack of interconnected and robust system support within the endgame progression.

Although, we are aware this endgame in POE2 is (at best) hastily developed & designed. In POE1, that is not the case. Where the whole of the progression model leads to that pinnacle content being the reward of the specific endgame ecosystem, so to speak.

- - - Updated - - -

I am slightly confused if POE2 is taking place before or after POE1. Some of the NPCs talk to you as if they already know you, but Kingsmarch is already established. Also some NPCs that are legends in POE1 are just getting started in POE2 such as Nasima (Brutal Restraint Timeless Jewel: Second Soght) or the fact Alva is young in POE2.

And it seems like Doriyani knows we killed Atziri in POE1?

So confusing.

[Edge-]

https://www.reddit.com/r/PathOfExile...last_waystone/

Man, they really need to add in transparency for the world ASAP. It's insane to me that ARPG's for decades now (including PoE) figured out that you need to make parts of zones have transparency layers to allow players to continue to see their characters when they'd otherwise be visually blocked by terrain.

Because you get shit like this, where homeboy eats a hella long meteor cast because the ground effect warning of it is invisible behind the pillar.

Very eager to hear what their plans will be when they're all back in the office.

- - - Updated - - -

And it seems like Doriyani knows we killed Atziri in POE1?

So confusing.

I won't pretend to have paid attention to the whole story, but we are dealing with some timey wimey bullshit and Doriyani seems to be clued into some of that shit since IIRC he's seen the future and whatnot.

[Fencers]

I won't pretend to have paid attention to the whole story, but we are dealing with some timey wimey bullshit and Doriyani seems to be clued into some of that shit since IIRC he's seen the future and whatnot.

Yeah, but then how do they explain young Alva or Nisima?

[Edge-]

Yeah, but then how do they explain young Alva or Nisima?

Considering I'm not sure who that second person is I got nothin. I only did the campaign once so far and only partially paid attention.

[Fencers]

Okay, GGG. Maybe this is too much MF.

I got a nice ring with MF and ran a bunch of 14/15s. Holy guacamole.

It's too much. I feel dirty. I am not gonna stop either.

Considering I'm not sure who that second person is I got nothin. I only did the campaign once so far and only partially paid attention.

Fair.