[Megathread] Path of Exile

[Fencers]

Did they say "souls-like" combat?

Because Johnathan specifically said when asked about POE2 being too slow that the guy responsible for POE1 being zoomy was doing the same for POE2. Then he pointed to Mark and Mark waved.

In the most recent stream, Johnatha and Mark said they intend for players to be more powerful and faster over time.

"Meaningful combat" does not necessarily mean "Souls-like" or "slow-placed." They just didn't want 1 skill dynamic in POE2, which they restated on the Korean games podcast and back at Gamescom last year.

A lot of things players seem to have assumed or interpreted in their own way.

[Gorsameth]

Did they say "souls-like" combat?

Because Johnathan specifically said when asked about POE2 being too slow that the guy responsible for POE1 being zoomy was doing the same for POE2. Then he pointed to Mark and Mark waved.

In the most recent stream, Johnatha and Mark said they intend for players to be more powerful and faster over time.

"Meaningful combat" does not necessarily mean "Souls-like" or "slow-placed." They just didn't want 1 skill dynamic in POE2, which they restated on the Korean games podcast and back at Gamescom last year.

A lot of things players seem to have assumed or interpreted in their own way.

If they don't want 1 skill dynamic in PoE 2 they utterly failed.

[Fencers]

If they don't want 1 skill dynamic in PoE 2 they utterly failed.

They didn't. There are a lot of skills in POE2 that are compounded or have specific interactions with other skills. Most skills, in fact.

I really can not think of too many skills other than the weapon skills that are singular or have no dynamic with another skill interaction.

This is different than saying, "All I do is press Right Click." That's an issue of balance. Not design.

[Cyclone Jack]

Did they say "souls-like" combat?

I could have sworn I heard "souls-like" more than once. Perhaps that was specifically when it comes to bosses? I don't think I ever heard them specifically state "slow-paced", but most of the videos were slow-paced; again, due to them only really having the early Acts complete. I don't think that this was a purposeful misdirect or anything, I just think it was yet another oversight while being entirely rushed.

That said, "click to clear screen" is not "meaningful combat". That would be like calling Cookie Clicker an "engaging" game. LOL

Currently, the game is a huge mess when it comes to balance, as everything is out of whack. The passive tree is extremely lackluster, gear is *way* overpowered (and drops way too infrequent, but that's an entirely different topic), and you have some interesting skill combos...that are entirely useless once you get to Maps, most of the skills become lackluster in Maps, pacing (both campaign and maps) is all over the place, and you have a bunch of support gems that are pretty useless because they either 1) don't boost DPS or 2) are useless because you're 1-2 shotting entire screens with or without them.

Beta is beta, but its quite apparent that this was rushed out the door. Then couple the fact that PoE1 was put on hold just to get this out the door in the state that its in, and its apparent that there is some serious mismanagement issues at GGG.

[Mojo03]

Did they say "souls-like" combat?

I mean when they showed off the game initially they showed "souls-like" boss fights and slower paced combat

It was certainly implied it's meant to be a slower paced, more tactical, thoughtful combat game

Even the first 3 acts play that way before turning into zoom zoom slosh

[Ghost of Cow]

Feels like people see a dodge roll and immediately think, "Souls-like!" for some reason.

I don't think that kind of combat was ever something that was promised by GGG.

[xuros]

I stopped playing a few weeks now. Started mapping after finishing the 2nd go-round on cruel difficulty and I'm bored lol. Doing/clearing 15 waystones fully "juiced" and its just dull after your 30th map. I don't see much of a challenge in the game after your gear gets decent. You roll everything, cept the every now and again you get bad and tank something ya shouldnt face first and die. Its left me very bored lol. A few good real life friends are playing and starting up the end game so I'll go back and play a bit with them and see if it gets fun again.

[Fencers]

I could have sworn I heard "souls-like" more than once.

I am skeptical of this but if you can find a clip, then go for it.

I remember Jonathan being skittish not liking those comparisons. The last time he was asked about such on a podcast he said, "I just want to have good combat."

but most of the videos were slow-paced; again, due to them only really having the early Acts complete. I don't think that this was a purposeful misdirect or anything, I just think it was yet another oversight while being entirely rushed.

And when Jonathan and Mark were asked if POE2 was going to be as slow-paced as the pre-EA footage suggested that is when Johannath pointed to Mark and said, "This is the guy who made POE1 Zoomy. He is in charge of the endgame."

Currently, the game is a huge mess when it comes to balance, as everything is out of whack.

Yeah.

I mean when they showed off the game initially they showed "souls-like" boss fights and slower-paced combat

It was certainly implied it's meant to be a slower-paced, more tactical, thoughtful combat game

Even the first 3 acts play that way before turning into zoom zoom slosh

In the very post you are quoting;

Because Jonathan specifically said when asked about POE2 being too slow that the guy responsible for POE1 being zoomy was doing the same for POE2. Then he pointed to Mark and Mark waved.

When fans asked if POE2 was going to be slow-paced, twice, Jonathan and Mark said on camera essentially, "no."

On the Talkitive Tri podcast, Jonathan said their goal was simply to make a good action game. They believe that the style of combat in POE2 is what they are looking for in order to achieve that goal.

[Jastall]

Feels like people see a dodge roll and immediately think, "Souls-like!" for some reason.

I don't think that kind of combat was ever something that was promised by GGG.

From a distance I got the impression that the game was at least intended to be less insanely fast than PoE1 was. Not souls-like, which is a label thrown at anything with a sword and a dodge or block button these days for whatever reason, but less of a click-to-nuke-screen-repeat affair.

Seems like that isn't the case lol. I feel like both Diablo 3 and Diablo 4 tried to make an endgame that wasn't about obliterating the entire map with a thought, but for various (often good!) reasons players didn't end up liking it so the devs defaulted to "yeah you're all Super Saiyans now" and called it a day, because to a greater or lesser degree many players of ARPGs want this power fantasy as a reward from all the theorycrafting and grind and all that, even if it causes larger design problems. So it is in PoE2, and why I'm not overly interested in it on top of the various other issues covered in the last couple pages.

Abandoning PoE1 like that really does seem like a bad move. They're need, what, half a dozen devs tops keeping it alive? The MTX revenue would likely justify them. Or maybe they have the numbers and it wouldn't as most core PoE players, those who fork over the cash on said MTX, would move over to the new game perhaps.

[Fencers]

Abandoning PoE1 like that really does seem like a bad move.

Emotionally, for POE1 enjoyers in particular, it is a bad move. But for the company, it is the right decision. The way GGG went about it, sucked, as a player(s). Nonetheless, POE2 will only be in EA once; this is the time to fundamentally develop a game that will have a longer tail than one already a decade+ old.

Even if POE1 lives on another 20 years, it will be a 14+20-year-old game by then. Whereas POE2 will still just be a 20-year-old game.

[Edge-]

I am skeptical of this but if you can find a clip, then go for it.

I know they'd referenced Dark Souls, I remember taking note of that as part of "they play the broader ARPG/action-RPG genre", but I don't remember them saying "soulslike" was ever a goal for PoE.

[Fencers]

I know they'd referenced Dark Souls, I remember taking note of that as part of "they play the broader ARPG/action-RPG genre", but I don't remember them saying "soulslike" was ever a goal for PoE.

I remember two occasions when Jonathan mentioned Dark Souls. Both were in the context of how to display player damage relative to the target HP.

Jonathan has referenced No Rest for The Wicked twice; once to say that he was disappointed when it was over, there wasn't more game to play. And again, when he said while he liked the combat the bosses of No Rest could have been more elaborate.

[prwraith]

Honestly, I just hate rogers face at this point. That santa clause cheeks looking asshole is ruining one of my favorite things

[PenguinChan]

You’d think they would hire some very passionate players to help design and guide PoE 1 leagues directly instead of abandoning it entirely. Like how hard is it to literally let your own community help push the game they love in a direction (with some loose guidance) that satisfies both parties?

It’s not 343 studios level of butchering but it definitely is a kick in the nuts for those who love PoE 1 to know they aren’t even being looked at for almost 9 months in total before anything meaningful will show up, and probably up to a year with no transparency.

Almost feels like the studio wants to do what Blizzard did to D3 when D4 released — put it into maintenance mode and shove everyone to the new game ASAP. But PoE isn’t even done and there are still plenty of people who like 1 still.

[Edge-]

You’d think they would hire some very passionate players to help design and guide PoE 1 leagues directly instead of abandoning it entirely. Like how hard is it to literally let your own community help push the game they love in a direction (with some loose guidance) that satisfies both parties?

It’s not 343 studios level of butchering but it definitely is a kick in the nuts for those who love PoE 1 to know they aren’t even being looked at for almost 9 months in total before anything meaningful will show up, and probably up to a year with no transparency.

Almost feels like the studio wants to do what Blizzard did to D3 when D4 released — put it into maintenance mode and shove everyone to the new game ASAP. But PoE isn’t even done and there are still plenty of people who like 1 still.

NZ hiring laws suck. Apparently you have to prove there's nobody locally you can train to do the job which is...incredibly time consuming and expensive to try to do even.

That being said, I do wonder if there's a reality where they spin up an external studio to handle PoE1 or something to help circumvent some of those issues. I hope so.

[Fencers]

You’d think they would hire some very passionate players to help design and guide PoE 1 leagues directly instead of abandoning it entirely.

This is a terrible idea.

Taking on employees is not so simple. Especially if those employees are in other countries with different labor laws and time zones.

That is even assuming these remote or transplant employees have the skill set, rapport, training, and ethics that align with GGG's current work culutre.

Absolutely NO professional outlet or company in any medium needs pitches or idea men. Ideas a dime a dozen. Laborers, skilled and compatible laborers, are not.

PoE 1 to know they aren’t even being looked at for almost 9 months in total before anything meaningful will show up, and probably up to a year...

This is just fantastic speculation at this point. We don't have any statement on how long until a league reset in POE1.

Almost feels like the studio wants to do what Blizzard did to D3 when D4 released — put it into maintenance mode and shove everyone to the new game ASAP. But PoE isn’t even done and there are still plenty of people who like 1 still.

They are developing a NEW game with gameplay they have never tried before.

Even if they did intent to not update POE1 ever again, it would cost little to keep it going in the long term. But it costs a lot to make something new.

[PenguinChan]

This is a terrible idea.

Taking on employees is not so simple. Especially if those employees are in other countries with different labor laws and time zones.

That is even assuming these remote or transplant employees have the skill set, rapport, training, and ethics that align with GGG's current work culutre.

Absolutely NO professional outlet or company in any medium needs pitches or idea men. Ideas a dime a dozen. Laborers, skilled and compatible laborers, are not.

It's not simple no, but contract work tends to be how you handle things in that regard so you can circumvent different labor laws without having to go through that trouble. Not realistic for a whole team obviously (but wouldn't be the first time a game company has had tons of contract work...) Regardless it's a musing simple based off of them absolutely blowing off PoE for at least a year.

And to be fair, PoE has had some insufferably bad seasons for no particular reason. Like - barely play tested or just straight up boring ideas thrown in that at best didn't do anything or at worst made the entire experience feel like ass. Anyone with half a brain-cell should've been able to speak up and got things changed up buuuuut apparently over at GGG that doesn't exist. We're all used to the very questionable takes or changes they've done at this point lol.

Let alone their stubbornness behind many different decisions. Like how trading (outside of console) doesn't have a modern way of selling / buying things, and is on an obtusely slow and buggy auctioning system.

This is just fantastic speculation at this point. We don't have any statement on how long until a league reset in POE1.

True, but I'd rather be prepared for the worst.

They are developing a NEW game with gameplay they have never tried before.

Even if they did intent to not update POE1 ever again, it would cost little to keep it going in the long term. But it costs a lot to make something new.

Also true. But rather stupid (as of this time) to consider unless their entire intention is to just pull a Left 4 Dead 2 and basically port over a ton of things from PoE1 to 2, and just focus on that instead.

[Mevaya]

PoE2 is killing PoE1 rofl

"oh the timings were bad"

"oh poe2 is way more fucked than we though oh no"

Chris Wilson's absence is fucking real, man. Chris would not have let this fucking happen.

Glad they waited until the end of January to drop this update knowing the whole time they had no plans for 3.26. So we wait for them to whip 0.2 for PoE2...whenever the fuck that is, plus a few weeks of additional support for that update.

gonna be a fucking 10 month league at this point rofl, this is absolute garbage.

Amen. I would not have bought the big supporter pack, had i known they did not even start development of the next PoE1 league. It was 100% a marketing strategy. Dont think they did something like this in the past. It will bite them in the ass in the long run, since i, a supporter for over a decade, am inclined to not purchase more supporter packs. Its the same old same old, short term gain over long time success.

[Gorsameth]

Emotionally, for POE1 enjoyers in particular, it is a bad move. But for the company, it is the right decision. The way GGG went about it, sucked, as a player(s). Nonetheless, POE2 will only be in EA once; this is the time to fundamentally develop a game that will have a longer tail than one already a decade+ old.

Even if POE1 lives on another 20 years, it will be a 14+20-year-old game by then. Whereas POE2 will still just be a 20-year-old game.

abandoning PoE 1 before PoE 2 is stable and successful seems absolutely like a bad move for the company.

You make sure your new revenue source will survive long term before you kill of your only other revenue.

And PoE 2 being in EA is exactly why they can take it a little slower and leave some people on PoE 1 to ensure its continued survival. You don't need to fix it by tomorrow, they have time and PoE 1 would be there rolling along paying for their salaries why they fix PoE 2.

- - - Updated - - -

This is just fantastic speculation at this point. We don't have any statement on how long until a league reset in POE1.

We know their normal team takes 3 months to put out a rushed league full of bugs while they are in the flow of working, and we know they have not yet started work. So its not speculation to say it will take 3+ months before 3.26 is even becoming a possibility.

[Fencers]

It's not simple no, but contract work tends to be how you handle things in that regard so you can circumvent different labor laws without having to go through that trouble.

Unless Kripparian is going to code some of this shit, this likely just a loss as a practice. Feedback is plentiful and ideas are cheap.

Contracted and freelance workers usually have deliverables or executable they need to hand in or complete.

The current POE1 situation is likely a matter of mismanagement. Based on Jonathan's statements where he expressly said multiple times; "I thought we had more time."/"We are working out how our studio handles split development."/etc.

Mismanagement happens. And this situation strongly suggests the relatively small development team at GGG lacked the resource and labor allocation skills for the continuous development of POE2 and POE1 maintenance currently.

And to be fair, PoE has had some insufferably bad seasons for no particular reason.

Absolutely. We had graveyard league before Settlers. Necro Settlers sucked and was just a few months ago too.

Let alone their stubbornness behind many different decisions.

Well, that's just their artistic privilege. We might think or X or Y decision is terrible (and I think that a lot), but ultimately it is their art and vision which are not necessarily wrong decisions; they may simply be decisions one doesn't prefer.

True, but I'd rather be prepared for the worst.

This is fair considering GGG's timelines are historically, uh, unreliable. lol

Also true. But rather stupid (as of this time) to consider unless their entire intention is to just pull a Left 4 Dead 2 and basically port over a ton of things from PoE1 to 2, and just focus on that instead.

Not at all. POE1 never had as many players or media presence as POE2 in EA.

If they released a new POE1 league having allocated, say, 6 weeks of development time. They might only gain 100-200k more POE1 players at best relative to POE2 having 6 additional weeks of development.

The trade off of a few 100k players (best case scenario) for a 14 year old game because Reddit is making a lot of memes is stupid compared to the active development of your biggest, highest profile and newest game - which will only be in this state once.

POE1 is an already stable game, robustly developed and widely regarded to being it's best content state currently.

POE2 is, in Jonathan's own words, "on fire".

abandoning PoE 1 before PoE 2 is stable and successful seems absolutely like a bad move for the company.

That doesn't make any sense. Why would they allocate resources for a game that is already stable and likely to gain only a small monetary benefit for the resources relative to their highest profile, most popular and newest game that will only be in this development state once?

POE1 is not on ablaze. People are just bored playing Settlers.

POE2 is clearly the future of their company and needs a ton of work by GGG's own admission. And anyone playing POE2 currently has to admit its fucking rough.

A new POE1 league would, at best, net a few 100k players for a few months. That's assuming the 3.26 league isn't a dud - which is a 50/50 chance of any POE1 league in the best of times.

You make sure your new revenue source will survive long term before you kill of your only other revenue.

Is this not what they are doing?

POE2 is their new revenue source. And eclipsed the popularity of POE1 about 3x over compared to POE2's most popular iteration.

One game is stable, well regarded and 14 years old.

The other game is more popular, higher profile and in active development. It is exactly 57 days.