[Megathread] Path of Exile

[Fencers]

Apparently Ziz did a mock interview with two other streamers to get prepared for it. Respect.

That paid off. Excellent work.

[BeepBoo]

"we're firing from the hip here and we'll just revert if people don't like it" that's fine, but the whole point of trying things in a snap-reaction like that is because YOURE DOING IT RAPIDLY trying to figure things out via process of elimination. If you keep waiting months between patches, kinda defeats the purpose of that approach.

Also, "monsters can't be slower than the player otherwise combat becomes optional" and? Either pack your maps so much you can't possibly avoid everything or just make killing monsters worth it. You can't level up if you don't get kills, and you won't get resources. Is that not enough of a reason for engaging in combat? Lol, 2 seconds later Zaz said the same thing...

I keep hearing jonathan say "we want combat to be more engaging" and yes, I'm all for that, but you cannot have blasting while also having engagement. Blasting is opposite of engaging, active combat. It's move fast and pollute the entire screen with shit so everything dies asap. That is antithesis to engagement.

[Fencers]

When Ziz was like, "I would like to finish." when Jonathan interrupted him a few times was golden.

What a wild ride this past 2 weeks have been. I sorta love it.

I will say this though; I partly agree with Jonathan here that if monsters are always slower than players combat does become optional.

I have played ARPGs where that is the case and it does lead to ignoring most encounters and/or killing things without threat. Viktor Vran, Chaosbane, Fate- monsters are so slow you can literally run a circle around them and have their own projectiles flying towards them from the reverse angle.

That being said, in POE2 you simply don't have time to do a 5 button combo without 100 hyenas on your ass and 10 hags firing 20 tracking missiles at you, while everything has an on death effect on top of burning ground... that you need to cancel animation to dodge.

It's a mismatch of intent and expression.

[Edge-]

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3750853

things being worked on for 0.2, 2.0

can finally bleed enemies with ES but CI also makes you immune to bleed what the fuck? jesus, CI stonks

[Morae]

I only now watched the interview.

wtf.

I'm unhappy listening that. Matters that are brought up and then neither jonathan nor mark really understands the problem. Some that are brought up they just directly disagree with it and when they bring up reasons, its me who doesnt understand the solution. Im thinking "what the hell are they talking about".

Continuously matter is brought to them and they dont even get it. Its difficult to watch the interview.

[Snakepit]

Spicy interview, indeed. I want to both punch hard and hug hard Jon. Confirms my initial impressions about Mark and Jon from before the initial release (I didn't play PoE 1 until like 6 months before the PoE 2 launch, so I didn't know them previously) - that Mark is a relatively reasonable guy and that the initial hype about Jonathan based around the passion and details he shows in interviews is a bit over the top and unwarranted. I still stand by my words (p)ages ago - the problem is just that he (Jon) is not management material and for some things he's a great communicator, but for others he's an awful communicator and when these 2 clash, it gets nasty and snowballs down the line. And that's not an attack or anything, in a way I love the guy, I just feel sorry for some of the stuff he suffers, partly because of his stubbornness.

Problem is the ambiguity - I still think that Jon is most likely an amazing tech person. And that he has contributed a lot more to the success of PoE 1 and many good things in PoE 2 than people give him credit for, and that if he leaves, people will actually feel his absence later on, but they're just frustrated because of other things he does (or does not) and their collateral damage. I also think he is indeed passionate AAAAND he also actually does have a lot of valid points, but can't communicate them well and they get lost in misinterpretations and in the barrages that are result of his other, non-valid points and the partially wrong way he presents other valid points. I don't even think he intends the game to be that brutal as people believe he does, but this is just how it gets on the surface. Because for a problem X that gets on the surface you hear Jon say "that's not necessarily a problem" and Mark say "Valid point, I'll change it today", but underneath I think they're actually much closer to each other in their thoughts "damn, I don't think this needs a change, I like my vision, but if the community wants it..." and then both would proceed in changing/hotfixing them eventually. But on the surface one is super defensive, the other super flexible, although the result would be the same in the end, no matter who tackles the issue

There are a lot more cases in other games and other studios where you see a change and feel like "Omg, this studio amazing, they listen", but you just never see what happens in the "kitchen" and that often the studio would be like "omg those f*cker players, I hate them, they totally don't appreciate our game, but they pay our salaries, so we'll have to cater to them and do that change, dammit" and then proceed with the changes and release a nice marketing post "hi guys, here is our changed based on your feedback, because we listen and love you all, hugs and kisses"

P.S. I am a bit scared after hearing in the interview all the "I changed this 30 mins ago/ I will change this later today/ I added X" - it almost felt like actually the core game is developed by Mark and Jon 95% and then they have a team of 150 interns trying to port a unique helmet MTX from PoE1 to PoE2 or trying to fit the buff icons at a different part of the screen

[Gorsameth]

When Ziz was like, "I would like to finish." when Jonathan interrupted him a few times was golden.

What a wild ride this past 2 weeks have been. I sorta love it.

I will say this though; I partly agree with Jonathan here that if monsters are always slower than players combat does become optional.

I have played ARPGs where that is the case and it does lead to ignoring most encounters and/or killing things without threat. Viktor Vran, Chaosbane, Fate- monsters are so slow you can literally run a circle around them and have their own projectiles flying towards them from the reverse angle.

That being said, in POE2 you simply don't have time to do a 5 button combo without 100 hyenas on your ass and 10 hags firing 20 tracking missiles at you, while everything has an on death effect on top of burning ground... that you need to cancel animation to dodge.

It's a mismatch of intent and expression.

As others have said, the mobs are still playing PoE 1. You can't have meaningful engaging combat when standing still for 0.1 seconds = deaths.

The design of the game is fundamentally flawed and at odds with itself.

[Cyclone Jack]

Continuously matter is brought to them and they dont even get it. Its difficult to watch the interview.

Its almost as if the designers don't really play the game they are working on, so they don't see any issues.

And its painful to watch.

[rogoth]

not only is the game unplayable for the myriad of reasons highlighted since this update, but the game is FUCKING UNPLAYABLE thanks to the servers shitting the bed every 5 minutes, I have levelled up not to lvl 49 on my lich SIX TIMES this morning, every time I have lost whatever loot I had picked up and been rolled back to the point when I entered the grelwood zone, it's a fucking joke honestly.

[Gravity2015]

I wish theyd have announced some kind of late change addition of league challenges for the EA leagues, some kind of goal check list to complete for a portal or wings or any kind of incentive to play other than just testing builds that people far better than me are testing..

[Fencers]

As a minions enjoyer, I still do not understand the problem with convocation. You can't have a CD or damage reduction for X seconds after convocation?

I can't.

The design of the game is fundamentally flawed and at odds with itself.

Yes. That's what I am saying.

The only such thing as bad game design is design that contradicts the expression. That's exactly what is happening in POE2 thus far. Legit bad design.

- - - Updated - - -

These post interview changes seem rather good. I like seeing the changes being directly what Mark said he was going to do while talking to Ziz.

- - - Updated - - -

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3750853

[rogoth]

As a minions enjoyer, I still do not understand the problem with convocation. You can't have a CD or damage reduction for X seconds after convocation?

I can't.

Yes. That's what I am saying.

The only such thing as bad game design is design that contradicts the expression. That's exactly what is happening in POE2 thus far. Legit bad design.

- - - Updated - - -

These post interview changes seem rather good. I like seeing the changes being directly what Mark said he was going to do while talking to Ziz.

- - - Updated - - -

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3750853

0.2.0 update - chops your perfectly healthy hand off.

0.2.0 hotfixes - stitches up the open wound left behind after chopping your hand off

0.2.0 'proposed changes' - offering to give you a prosthetic hand to replace the perfectly healthy hand they chopped off with a 'sorry' note stuck to it.

the kinds of MASSIVE changes being made need to be announced well in advance to give people more time to fully grasp the changes, and they need to be less willing to shit the bed then frantically knee-jerk change things retroactively in a panic trying to soften the utter shitshow they have created by fucking up so royally to begin with.

[Edge-]

0.2.0 update - chops your perfectly healthy hand off.

0.2.0 hotfixes - stitches up the open wound left behind after chopping your hand off

0.2.0 'proposed changes' - offering to give you a prosthetic hand to replace the perfectly healthy hand they chopped off with a 'sorry' note stuck to it.

the kinds of MASSIVE changes being made need to be announced well in advance to give people more time to fully grasp the changes, and they need to be less willing to shit the bed then frantically knee-jerk change things retroactively in a panic trying to soften the utter shitshow they have created by fucking up so royally to begin with.

they're treating this like a launched, live product but they also want this to be a real beta where they test things and GGG cannot have it both ways and need to figure out how they want to handle it. because this halvsies is just going to be frustrating.

stop it with the secrets and "oh discover the 100+ new support gems and the huge number of undocumented skill changes when you log in!" and let folks look early. too many times players have correctly highlighted problems/mistakes/oversights before they make it live and can be addressed.

[Fencers]

the kinds of MASSIVE changes being made need to be announced well in advance to give people more time to fully grasp the changes

I don't agree with this at all. What is there to grasp? It's an unfinished game in active development. Everything is and should be in flux.

Many pages ago, I said I think GGG should make more changes more often and dramatically. This is the time to experiment with the most wild ideas. That is why I am in Early Access.

What is holding them back is the half-measure to changing the game.

[rogoth]

I don't agree with this at all. What is there to grasp? It's an unfinished game in active development. Everything is and should be in flux.

Many pages ago, I said I think GGG should make more changes more often and dramatically. This is the time to experiment with the most wild ideas. That is why I am in Early Access.

What is holding them back is the half-measure to changing the game.

the fact you ask that unironically speaks volumes, people said before the update to what was announced that half of it didn't make any sense, the after the patch it made even less sense, so clearly there needs to be A LOT of open communication with a decent lead time between what they plan to change, and what the playerbase can help them with when it comes to understanding those changes.

That's ALL THE MORE REASON the devs need to be in very open, and very vocal communication with the community about what they are planning long before they implement any changes, otherwise this debacle will be a regular occurrence.

I'm not saying don't change things, I'm saying that they need to communicate the ridiculously large sweeping changes that affect every single aspect of the game like the ones that have just been made, well in advance, so that the community can gauge both the direction of where things are headed, and can provide feedback in advance on potential issues that the devs very obviously are missing because it's very clear that they aren't playing the same game and some of these changes should never have been greenlit to be pushed out in the first place, case in point something that raxx brought up, the skill gem 'hexblast' is functionally unusable, meaning that the devs need to invest time and resources in 'fixing' something that wasn't broken to begin with, but after these latest changes has been broken to the point it can't be used anymore, this was said prior to the patch going live that it needs to be looked at, and here we are, still no word on that example or a whole heap of other examples where the changes made with this patch has fundamentally broken several aspects of various classes that they no longer function, which is a MASSIVE problem for the game at large.

[Fencers]

the fact you ask that unironically speaks volumes, people said before the update to what was announced that half of it didn't make any sense, the after the patch it made even less sense, so clearly there needs to be A LOT of open communication with a decent lead time between what they plan to change, and what the playerbase can help them with when it comes to understanding those changes.

I don't understand your position.

How can the players help the developers understand changes before the changes are live?

What communication has been closed?

The devs have literal hours of interview footage, blog posts, tweets, Reddit posts, live streams, website articles, Youtube videos, news posts, and forum posts before the implementation of 0.2 about 0.2's changes.

That's ALL THE MORE REASON the devs need to be in very open, and very vocal communication with the community about what they are planning long before they implement any changes, otherwise this debacle will be a regular occurrence.

Again, what have they withheld or been closed about?

I count 7 direct developer interviews since March 27th.

Dawn of the Hunt went live on April 4th. That is FOUR days ago.

Do you think GGG should come to your house, give a power point and allow you to mull it over for a month or two?

I don't understand you here.

[Snakepit]

There's another thing, though - with THAT many changes, there are loads of interactions between each other and sometimes the best way, especially if it's in a state like EA where changes and experimenting are warranted and expected, is to push them so that a huge amount of people can test them while you have your inhouse tools to monitor that stuff. Quite often a certain changed would be looked at by the community in isolation and there's no way to account for all the changes combined other than just pushing them and then fixing.

Like Jon (I think) said something like - game is slow, and in isolation all the following are perceived as issues - maps are big, walking is slow, killing is slow. Looked at in isolation, you need to fix all 3. But what if fixing 1 or 2 actually solves the problem? What if changing all 3 swings the pendulum in the other direction and it becomes broken in the opposite/different way?

So yeah, to be honest, exactly when there are multiple, colliding, various changes, I'm an advocate of just pushing them and dealing with the consequences after. That is for EA state. If it wasn't EA state - then drop them on a PTR. But Early Access IS a PTR.

[Fencers]

There's another thing, though - with THAT many changes, there are loads of interactions between each other and sometimes the best way, especially if it's in a state like EA where changes and experimenting are warranted and expected, is to push them so that a huge amount of people can test them while you have your inhouse tools to monitor that stuff. Quite often a certain changed would be looked at by the community in isolation and there's no way to account for all the changes combined other than just pushing them and then fixing.

This is the only way I know that eliminates player or user bias and discrepancies in finding and analyzing software issues in a live environment.

Based on my experience working with (and being married to) software developers of B2B, entertainment and educational software.

There is no sense in saying players can read patch notes and from that alone the cumulative community of patch note readers will deduce through imagination how that will be within the software. Total absurdity.

[rogoth]

I don't understand your position.

How can the players help the developers understand changes before the changes are live?

What communication has been closed?

The devs have literal hours of interview footage, blog posts, tweets, Reddit posts, live streams, website articles, Youtube videos, news posts, and forum posts before the implementation of 0.2 about 0.2's changes.



Again, what have they withheld or been closed about?

I count 7 direct developer interviews since March 27th.

Dawn of the Hunt went live on April 4th. That is FOUR days ago.

Do you think GGG should come to your house, give a power point and allow you to mull it over for a month or two?

I don't understand you here.

I gave you a prime example of how players can help the devs understand certain changes before they go live with the hexblast skill gem being made unable to function, there's a list of other examples of things that were found in the patch notes that released a day before the update was pushed that made no sense whatsoever, but the change was made anyway, if there was enough lead time for that information to be digested by the community, and then fed back to the devs, could they have changed things ahead of the patch going live where that wouldn't have been an issue? we'll never know because they didn't give ANY FUCKING TIME for feedback to be gathered and changes to be made PRIOR to updating things.

literally everything that would be changing in this patch, never once was there anything specific mentioned in those '7 direct developer interviews', it was all vague handwaving fluff, never once was the magnitude of the changes discussed in those interviews, and never once was anything specific related to the changes mentioned outside of what they 'HOPED' would be changed relating exclusively to end game.

at least we can agree there, I'll try to dumb it down for you:

- devs plan sweeping, fundamental changes to every facet of the game.
- they talk very vaguely about what those changes are going to be, and don't give any specifics until 'patch notes' hit 24-48 hours before they plan to push the update.
- in the 'patch notes' they even state that there's too many changes to mention so 'good luck with that' to the community.

the kinds of massive fundamental changes that have been pushed with this update should have been well publicised weeks ago, with all the information about what was being changed known about in advance so that those who know the game inside and out could have given feedback AHEAD of the patch being deployed where CLEAR AND OBVIOUS issues would have arisen, as was shown on a MYRIAD number of instances, that's my point, I can't really make it any easier to understand you either get it or you don't.

[Cyclone Jack]

and GGG cannot have it both ways and need to figure out how they want to handle it

I think this sums up the entire project.