1. #4341
    Mechagnome Neldarie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    nope, gaze is garbage.
    Nope it shits on brutal talisman. Not tested it on PTR with 5.4 changes vs feather but its very likely that HTF gaze + HTF primo are bis then (before you get new trinkets of course).
    In fact given same ilvl currently its Feather>Primo>Gaze>Spark>Brutal (with 4set+metagem), unless fights are 5min+ then Spark is prolly on par with Primo.
    Last edited by Neldarie; 2013-09-08 at 11:15 PM.
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  2. #4342
    Quote Originally Posted by etsumii92 View Post
    Are we playing the same game? Rets being known for weak aoe?
    The problem is being in melee to do said aoe. We sat your ret through some of Tot H progression then have been gearing him up as things have been on farm but so far through H testing we are seeing him and many other ret's I watch on other stream's to be in the middle to middle bottom, anyone else seeing this? We are a 25man H progression guild that cleared a couple months ago but carry few melee and thus far Ret isn't exactly shining compared to Mages(even with Nerf's),locks and most range, it seems that Soo is going to be harder on melee than Tot at least on H progression.

    Any thoughts? Anyone else have a stream or number's that show different? We always seem to sit our ret while other gm's that I spoke to do the same and now with Warrior buff's they are looking strong along with combat rogues and with the limited melee brought for progression, it seems to be happening again. Please give me any insight you have.

  3. #4343
    Quote Originally Posted by unholyness View Post
    The problem is being in melee to do said aoe. We sat your ret through some of Tot H progression then have been gearing him up as things have been on farm but so far through H testing we are seeing him and many other ret's I watch on other stream's to be in the middle to middle bottom, anyone else seeing this? We are a 25man H progression guild that cleared a couple months ago but carry few melee and thus far Ret isn't exactly shining compared to Mages(even with Nerf's),locks and most range, it seems that Soo is going to be harder on melee than Tot at least on H progression.

    Any thoughts? Anyone else have a stream or number's that show different? We always seem to sit our ret while other gm's that I spoke to do the same and now with Warrior buff's they are looking strong along with combat rogues and with the limited melee brought for progression, it seems to be happening again. Please give me any insight you have.
    Bring the player not the class sort of thing.

    Depends on who your ret is etc.
    A link to your guild/ret's armory page would be helpful.

    Also, what other GM's have you spoken to? Reckoning from Mannoroth, I believe ran 2 rets for their progression kills.

  4. #4344
    Mechagnome ujx's Avatar
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    --As of 5.4--

    Valor trinket: 8800 str for 15 sec, 75 sec ICD
    Primodius: 3.5 ppm, no longer benefits from haste | Old: 3.30 ppm, benefits from haste
    Feather: 1.21 ppm, no longer benefits from haste, duration decreased from 20 seconds to 10 seconds | Old: 0.62 ppm, benefits from haste, 20 sec duration
    Spark: 11.10 ppm, no longer benefits from haste, duration decreased from 20 seconds to 10 seconds | Old: 5.55 ppm, benefits from haste, 20 sec duration
    Gaze: 0.72 ppm, no longer benefits from haste, benefits from crit | Old: 0.83 ppm, benefits from crit and haste

    Valor trinket definitely looks appealing to me, only downside is the expertise.

    Primordius trinket looks awful. It already had a pretty shitty uptime while benefiting from haste. Rarely did I ever maintain a 5 stack. Was really a hit or miss trinket to begin with, now it's even more miss.

    Feather definitely got gutted but I think it came out pretty well compared to the other ones.

    Spark definitely sucks now. Ramp up time was already annoying for a 20 second buff. Now it seems not even worth it for a 10 second buff, but with the 11ppm, it's better than valor.

    Gaze is well, who the hell even has one? I never looted one. I can't say much for it because I have zero experience with it, but it seems pretty bad to me.

    ____________

    So from my napkin math, considering all things 2/2 upgraded and HTF: feather > spark > valor > primodius > gaze
    Last edited by ujx; 2013-09-10 at 12:02 AM.

  5. #4345
    Legendary! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Todyn View Post
    Bring the player not the class sort of thing.

    Depends on who your ret is etc.
    A link to your guild/ret's armory page would be helpful.

    Also, what other GM's have you spoken to? Reckoning from Mannoroth, I believe ran 2 rets for their progression kills.
    Bring the player not the class has never been true for hardcore raiding, never will be.
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  6. #4346
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    Bring the player not the class has never been true for hardcore raiding, never will be.
    Depends on how hardcore imo. Maybe for the first 10 world kills, class matters, but as we go further down on the progression kills, player skills matter more than class stacking imo. I'm inferring/guessing that OP is not pursuing world first kills. So, in their class, player skill matters more for them

  7. #4347
    Spark is shit compared to live as it no longer scales with haste and the duration was halved. doubling the proc rate does not make up for the loss of haste scaling and killing the duration.
    Feather averages out to be the same with the changes, and can potentially be better than it was if you get lucky with the increased proc rate.
    Honestly I don't even want to try and math out Gaze and Prim's for fear of messing it up. I'd venture that they are roughly equal, with Prim's having more potential.

    Feather should last until you have the amp and cdr trinket.

    edit: Forgot to mention that the valor trinket is about as shit as Spark with its changes.
    Last edited by Lunavale; 2013-09-10 at 02:15 AM.

  8. #4348
    Mechagnome ujx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lunavale View Post
    Spark is shit compared to live as it no longer scales with haste and the duration was halved. doubling the proc rate does not make up for the loss of haste scaling and killing the duration.
    Feather averages out to be the same with the changes, and can potentially be better than it was if you get lucky with the increased proc rate.
    Honestly I don't even want to try and math out Gaze and Prim's for fear of messing it up. I'd venture that they are roughly equal, with Prim's having more potential.

    Feather should last until you have the amp and cdr trinket.

    edit: Forgot to mention that the valor trinket is about as shit as Spark with its changes.
    Spark is 11 ppm meaning 1 str proc per minute which is higher than valor trinket which is at 75 icd, on top of the 15% chance to proc it, you're looking at 85 seconds or so for a proc. 1 proc at 60 seconds that is 5 seconds shorter in duration vs 1 proc every ~85 seconds that lasts 5 seconds longer. Not to mention Spark has an assload of haste on it.

    Primordius is a static 3.5 ppm, so with the HTF one you're looking at ~6k str per min. Still worse than feather/spark/valor.

    Which echoes my earlier statement that: feather > spark > valor > primo > gaze, unless I'm missing something.
    Last edited by ujx; 2013-09-10 at 02:27 AM.

  9. #4349
    Just to give you an idea of exactly how shit spark is...

    (this is assuming all trinkets are 2/2, and it's not really worth factoring in proc chances as it's not like rppm trinkets are super consistent)
    Heroic Spark(post 5.4): 8920x10/~54= average of 1652str and can never be up for your initial burst
    Valor trinket: 9483x15/75= average of 1897str and can be up for your first set of CDs so it's better than spark
    Heroic Lei shen's final orders: 3935x20/45= average of 1749str. Yes that's right, a 510 trinket from last tier is almost as good as a valor trinket and considering it's up for your first CDs, beats a current content heroic trinket.

    It should be noted that you can't necessarily turn all of the exp on the valor trinket into mastery, and even then lei shen's has a large amount of haste. Spark is absolute trash no matter how you look at it.

    Like I said I don't even want to attempt to model prim's/gaze, and I'm fairly certain it's not as simple as you're making it out to be. That being said, I wouldn't be overly surprised if the valor trinket can perform better than them, but I'd want to see some math backing that up. Of course, Feather blows all of those out of the water but I suppose that goes without saying.


    ...I just wanted to make the point that spark sucks now, really. Glad I still have my lei shen's around cause I don't want to throw valor at a pretty bad trinket. >.>

  10. #4350
    Mechagnome Neldarie's Avatar
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    What Luna said basiaclly + Old: 0.83 ppm, benefits from crit and haste about gaze (currently) didnt realize it got shafted so hard on ptr seeing how unpopular it was. That said Runic corruption on my shitty 510 ilvl dk alt + 502 LFR gaze = 50%ish uptime on 3stacks of it and almost 95% 1+. People just never really tested or played around with it and followed false prophets stating the usual bs.
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  11. #4351
    Mechagnome ujx's Avatar
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    In your math you don't take into account the static stats on the trinkets. Valor trinket has 100% wasted expertise. Lei'shen's final orders? Are you serious?

    There's more to a fight than the initial cooldown burn. Sure spark won't be up for it, that's the only downside. Sustained over the course of an entire fight, it's a higher DPS gain than the rest of the trinkets, unless it's some gimmicky Jin'rokh burn fight that only lasts a couple minutes.

  12. #4352
    Quote Originally Posted by ujx View Post
    In your math you don't take into account the static stats on the trinkets. Valor trinket has 100% wasted expertise. Lei'shen's final orders? Are you serious?
    Yes I'm serious? do I need to do the math again to show you what the proc comes out as...again? I was ignoring the secondary stats, because honestly it's not a big deal. Stat weights are constantly changing anyways. Although since you're going to point it out, I'm fairly certain the pure haste on lei shen's would come out ahead of the valor trinkets exp=mastery and 630ish haste...but that's hard to say for certain considering I don't know what haste weights are going to look like with it not scaling rppm trinkets.

    And if you don't understand how important it is to have your trinket proc with your first set of CDs, I have to wonder if we play the same class.

  13. #4353
    Mechagnome Neldarie's Avatar
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    Don't forget that 45 ICD trinkets are all nerfed to 55 ICD in 5.4 aswell (regarding LSFO). What makes it op on live is that proc is 20sec duration with 45sec icd.
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  14. #4354
    Quote Originally Posted by Neldarie View Post
    Don't forget that 45 ICD trinkets are all nerfed to 55 ICD in 5.4 aswell (regarding LSFO). What makes it op on live is that proc is 20sec duration with 45sec icd.
    Is that so? I was unaware, sorry. For those curious that puts the proc for LSFO at 1431str a good bit under the other trinkets.

    bummer, what the heck is blizz doing changing shit from soon to be 2 tiers ago?
    Last edited by Lunavale; 2013-09-10 at 04:49 AM.

  15. #4355
    I was just planning on running Feather+Lei Shen's tomorrow and doing it live.
    Quote Originally Posted by anaxie View Post
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  16. #4356
    Legendary! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Todyn View Post
    Depends on how hardcore imo. Maybe for the first 10 world kills, class matters, but as we go further down on the progression kills, player skills matter more than class stacking imo. I'm inferring/guessing that OP is not pursuing world first kills. So, in their class, player skill matters more for them
    yes and no, the top 10 guilds will "stack" the raid with whatever alts and such they see fit to kill a boss.
    Even top 100 guilds wouldn't bring 5 ret paladins or something like that... you can do so when gear makes progress easier but at bleeding edge of progression you'd take the top dps regardless of class, if you have a ret paladin at nr1 dps (that guy is a god or the rest of your dpsers suck) then fine. but high progress guilds have players capable of playing multiple specs at top level, at that point you can claim "bring the player not the class" but you're gonna find him on the best performing spec/class.
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  17. #4357
    Ok So back to valor and feather it will be...

  18. #4358
    Legendary! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by metasaigneur View Post
    Ok So back to valor and feather it will be...
    or because we get access to not only one but TWO insanely strong trinkets in SoO you can keep your valor and use them on valor upgrades instead, by week two (heroic) you could buy the valor trinket if you're that unlucky I suppose.
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  19. #4359
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    or because we get access to not only one but TWO insanely strong trinkets in SoO you can keep your valor and use them on valor upgrades instead, by week two (heroic) you could buy the valor trinket if you're that unlucky I suppose.
    well back meant : back from my bank.

    Sad for spark love that zandalari transmo



    For people who vendored it, retrieve items is your friend. Don't waste VP
    Last edited by metasaigneur; 2013-09-10 at 02:33 PM.

  20. #4360
    After reading through dozens of the most recent pages I still haven't seen any hard evidence (parses, sims) for the rotations and stat weights or breakpoints these paladins are throwing around in this thread. Feels somewhat misleading.

    Where's the math? Inb4 "bosses aren't like patchwerk"
    Does anyone have PTR parses or sim data they can share that can provide more solid evidence for single target rotation priority and haste/mastery values comparison?

    Last few pages of Elitist Jerk's ret thread have posted some hard numbers if anyone else is looking for better evidence of claims. Pages 50-56. Theck has some math on 4pct16 priority, another poster compares AW to DP w/ t16 4pc. Initially it looks like AW for single target, DP 4pct16 for AOE, mastery for AOE heavy fights - no surprises.

    So my questions then are mostly where does 4pct16 fall in the single target rotation as and how mastery/haste are going to interact as we gear up? From the evidence I've read 4pct16 is above CS (although that's at heroic t16 gear levels), and haste is still winning. 5.4 Ret dps sure feels uncertain at the moment.
    Last edited by ilostmahbucket; 2013-09-10 at 03:53 PM.

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