1. #1041
    Legendary! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    Seriously guys, the sky is not falling. It depends on the encounters and how good Ret single target DPS actually is compared to others. I don't mind being the top (or close to the top) single target DPS if it means being mediocre at AOE/cleaving.
    except we're not top single target dps on any straight up fight.
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  2. #1042
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    except we're not top single target dps on any straight up fight.
    This is not 5.2.

  3. #1043
    Quote Originally Posted by Neldarie View Post
    HA prolly way to go with new tier weapons and those CS/exo procs.
    I don't know about that.

    SW's hammer > cs(2pc) > hammer > tv puts out more damage in the long run and has a longer duration to boot, protentially a pair more of godly Holy Verdicts under the influence of 20% damage.
    DP allows you to not waste Holy Verdict(tm) procs due to Inq maintenance.

    HA is a bunch of filler > TV > filler > TV on a shorter duration.. doesnt seem as useful for this tier..

  4. #1044
    Mechagnome Neldarie's Avatar
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    DP is already worthless trash lvling talent and not to be considered for any serious raiding.

    HA already competes with SW (and yes outperforms it when stars allign). The new set bonuses and weapon dmg will further down the potency of hammer.
    HA brings out the CS>TV>exo>TV>CS>TV spam that further utilizes 5.2 tier.
    WoW = Main: Ret Alt(s): War

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  5. #1045
    Just went through the last 10 pages and didn't find any answer,
    so sry for asking this if it has already been answered but:

    What's current best trinket Comp for Ret?

    2/2 Upped DMC + 2/2 HC Lei Shen's?
    2/2 Upped DMC + 2/2 HC Darkmist Vortex?
    2/2 HC Darkmist + 2/2 HC Lei Shen's ?

  6. #1046
    Quote Originally Posted by Neldarie View Post
    DP is already worthless trash lvling talent and not to be considered for any serious raiding.

    HA already competes with SW (and yes outperforms it when stars allign). The new set bonuses and weapon dmg will further down the potency of hammer.
    HA brings out the CS>TV>exo>TV>CS>TV spam that further utilizes 5.2 tier.
    That will need a 3.2 CS to work out perfectly and still pose the question wether to re-apply exo debuff and lose and holyTV or vice versa. So yeah, in a perfect world, where Exo debuff is extended to ~8ish seconds, HA would be optimal if CS is on a ~3sec CD.
    Both are not the case atm.
    DP adds RNG b ut may allow series of HolyTVs that would skyrocket our sustained/burst (luck-dependent) to all of it and SW has arguments to (better micro-management of debuf and CS-proc, larger span of HP generator to use fully buffed holyTV, etc..).
    Those talents must be tested out before saying one or the other is the only way to go.

  7. #1047
    Quote Originally Posted by Lychnuchus View Post
    Just went through the last 10 pages and didn't find any answer,
    so sry for asking this if it has already been answered but:

    What's current best trinket Comp for Ret?

    2/2 Upped DMC + 2/2 HC Lei Shen's?
    2/2 Upped DMC + 2/2 HC Darkmist Vortex?
    2/2 HC Darkmist + 2/2 HC Lei Shen's ?
    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-the-Mists-WIP

  8. #1048

  9. #1049
    Quote Originally Posted by metasaigneur View Post
    That will need a 3.2 CS to work out perfectly and still pose the question wether to re-apply exo debuff and lose and holyTV or vice versa. So yeah, in a perfect world, where Exo debuff is extended to ~8ish seconds, HA would be optimal if CS is on a ~3sec CD.
    Both are not the case atm.
    DP adds RNG b ut may allow series of HolyTVs that would skyrocket our sustained/burst (luck-dependent) to all of it and SW has arguments to (better micro-management of debuf and CS-proc, larger span of HP generator to use fully buffed holyTV, etc..).
    Those talents must be tested out before saying one or the other is the only way to go.
    How would it need a 3.2 CS? It works at any amount of haste.

  10. #1050
    Mechagnome Neldarie's Avatar
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    Disclaimer: this is only true for raiding where you push DPS to the limit (aka when you try to fit into the way raid swings not the raid swinging your way just cuz you're special).

    You do not need perfect world to know which talent is better knowing how your class swings.

    Currently its SW(more consistant)=HA(best overall when lucky)>>>DP.

    With changes in minds + gear scaling its safe to say with t15 4set it will be HA>SW>DP (garajal kinda mimics that).
    Last edited by Neldarie; 2013-01-14 at 01:36 AM.
    WoW = Main: Ret Alt(s): War

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  11. #1051
    Quote Originally Posted by Neldarie View Post
    Disclaimer: this is only true for raiding where you push DPS to the limit (aka when you try to fit into the way raid swings not the raid swinging your way just cuz you're special).

    You do not need perfect world to know which talent is better knowing how your class swings.

    Currently its SW(more consistant)=HA(best overall when lucky)>>>DP.

    With changes in minds + gear scaling its safe to say with t15 4set it will be HA>SW>DP (garajal kinda mimics that).
    In T14, Holy Avenger pulls ahead in a more consistent AOE situation, for sure and Sanctified Wrath is usually the best pick for single target in T14 4-piece. T15 however makes Sanctified Wrath the toughest choice because you have to pick between Exorcism and Crusader Strike and that makes it more complicated. Either way you're missing out on a T15 set bonus, which makes it tough to pick Sanctified Wrath.

  12. #1052
    Mechagnome Neldarie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    In T14, Holy Avenger pulls ahead in a more consistent AOE situation, for sure and Sanctified Wrath is usually the best pick for single target in T14 4-piece. T15 however makes Sanctified Wrath the toughest choice because you have to pick between Exorcism and Crusader Strike and that makes it more complicated. Either way you're missing out on a T15 set bonus, which makes it tough to pick Sanctified Wrath.
    No that was actually about single target only. And yes towards t15 play you would want as least hammers/judgments as possible as fillers which makes SW an obvious loser. Most raids don't have more than 2 banners available to them or a long-term burst opportunity w-o interruption, which is already reason enough to make HA abit more appealing. No trinkets last more than 20seconds and GoAK takes a few to ramp-up.
    WoW = Main: Ret Alt(s): War

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  13. #1053
    Normal Impaling Treads > heroic Jasper Clawfeet?

    http://www.wowhead.com/item=86201
    VS
    http://www.wowhead.com/item=87015

    Losing a ton of Haste...

    My armory for reference.
    Last edited by Krekko; 2013-01-15 at 02:06 AM.

  14. #1054
    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    How would it need a 3.2 CS? It works at any amount of haste.
    If you want to alternate CS>TV with no waiting time ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    T15 however makes Sanctified Wrath the toughest choice because you have to pick between Exorcism and Crusader Strike and that makes it more complicated. Either way you're missing out on a T15 set bonus, which makes it tough to pick Sanctified Wrath.
    The exact same problem is posed with HA: Exo (3HP)>NOholyTV6%>CS(3hp)>(Holy)TV+6% is first opener, or CS(3hp)>(holy)TV NO 6%>Exo>NO HolyTV+6%
    I mean, maybe I lost something but please, enlighten me if that's the case.

  15. #1055
    Quote Originally Posted by metasaigneur View Post
    If you want to alternate CS>TV with no waiting time ?
    You can't do that unless you have like 100% haste, which will never happen normally even under Heroism.

    Quote Originally Posted by metasaigneur View Post
    The exact same problem is posed with HA: Exo (3HP)>NOholyTV6%>CS(3hp)>(Holy)TV+6% is first opener, or CS(3hp)>(holy)TV NO 6%>Exo>NO HolyTV+6%
    I mean, maybe I lost something but please, enlighten me if that's the case.
    It's better than HoW > Exo/CS > HoW > TV. You can't fit both Crusader Strike and Exorcism in that rotation at all.

  16. #1056
    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    You can't do that unless you have like 100% haste, which will never happen normally even under Heroism.
    and yet that was what was stated to maintain HA is the way to go

    Quote Originally Posted by Neldarie View Post
    DP is already worthless trash lvling talent and not to be considered for any serious raiding.

    HA already competes with SW (and yes outperforms it when stars allign). The new set bonuses and weapon dmg will further down the potency of hammer.
    HA brings out the CS>TV>exo>TV>CS>TV spam that further utilizes 5.2 tier.
    Because yeah, when Exo is off-CD, this works well, but what happen after ?
    CS>(holy)TVno6%>Exo>NoholyTV(+6%)>CS>(holy)TV(+6%)>?? (CS after waiting ? J that bring nothing ? lucky exo proc and yet not chance to a holyTV ?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    It's better than HoW > Exo/CS > HoW > TV. You can't fit both Crusader Strike and Exorcism in that rotation at all.
    With SW, having a 5HP pool to manage 1by1 is easier than 3by3 : HoW(1HP)>Exo(2HP)>HoW(3HP)>CS(4HP)>HoW(5HP)>TV>HoW>CS>HoW>ES/Exo(luckyAoW)/J>HoW>TV
    That way, each ramp-up to 5HP makes it possible to throw a possible HolyTV and with little to no proc-waste and maximum +6% uptime.

    I don't see how SW is the worst thing ti chose here to be honest, but once again, this is the way I see it, maybe there is some point not clear in my mind that makes me talk nonsense. So please help me see through the mists

  17. #1057
    Quote Originally Posted by metasaigneur View Post
    anage 1by1 is easier than 3by3 : HoW(1HP)>Exo(2HP)>HoW(3HP)>CS(4HP)>HoW(5HP)>TV>HoW>CS>HoW>ES/Exo(luckyAoW)/J>HoW>TV
    That way, each ramp-up to 5HP makes it possible to throw a possible HolyTV and with little to no proc-waste and maximum +6% uptime.

    I don't see how SW is the worst thing ti chose here to be honest, but once again, this is the way I see it, maybe there is some point not clear in my mind that makes me talk nonsense. So please help me see through the mists
    Well these set bonuses honestly just make what we should prioritize, a royal mess. Exorcism doesn't compete with Hammer of Wrath on a damage basis at all, but it gives the holy debuff with the 2-set so I have no idea what should be over what in that case. Crusader Strike SHOULD do more damage than Judgment by the time we have enough mastery, but would you want to push it instead of Hammer of Wrath because it buffs TV?.. I don't know. Would you want to push Crusader Strike instead of Exorcism or vice versa? Not sure about that either.

    Like, even Holy Avenger is convoluted as fuck in this situation. Do you CS > TV then wait to gamble with another CS? Is it even worth it? Probably not in that particular case. If you choose Sanctified Wrath, do you prioritize Exorcism over Crusader Strike in-case it procs again? I dunno. At this point, I think I would pick Divine Purpose to avoid that shit without knowing what specific situations what has over another.

  18. #1058
    So basically we agree these need large testing and playing around to find a near-perfect micro-managing on our set bonuses and the answer is not as straight as "Go X 'cause it's sooo much better".

    Thanks for reading me and taking time to answer
    I follow this thread for a long time and will continue to do so. I hope we will find some compromise for our L75 talent

  19. #1059
    Can anyone help with my previous question?

  20. #1060
    Looks like the Ret t15 4 pc will be changed. not sure what to think of it, tbh.
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