Anaxie's Totally Revolutionary SoO Retribution T16 BiS & Theorycraft

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

That would exacerbate the problem of terrible cleave unless they put all their eggs in Divine Storm.

They could add a dot to our cleave crusader strike (forgot the name of spell, it's 06.20 in the morning ptr testing and analysing shit all night)
I'm trying to avoid anything that's going to involve haste or in particular mastery because it's going to work on everything (including burst) which is going to cause pvp issues. Hell why even add a dot to the cleave crusader strike? why not increase the holy damage wave it does? I think DS and TV are fine but they really should make the T15 4set have it so cleave crusader strike can proc an increased DS aswell considering how much cleave there's to do in T15 encounters...

While they're at it they should make the cleave crusader strike require no target so we can break stealth shit, think of it like a no stun shockwave. Get 1 holy power if we hit anything.

[catablitz]

DS aoe spreading censure is an excellent idea to the point of overfixing things (gief!), but... it requires SoT and wouldn't that mean permanent exile of SoR which was supposed to be buffed?


Actually Huntingbear gave a great idea. What about HotR giving 1 HoP per target hit?

[Deleted]

DS aoe spreading censure is an excellent idea to the point of overfixing things (gief!), but... it requires SoT and wouldn't that mean permanent exile of SoR which was supposed to be buffed?


Actually Huntingbear gave a great idea. What about HotR giving 1 HoP per target hit?

Like I proposed on EJ, HotR would make sense spreading censure. DS is a finisher. Period. So far, my predictions for HotR as CP builder and DS as finisher came true.
Also, SotR "exile" would mean much to the improvement of Quality of Life due to removal of stance-dance crap.

[Ryve]

I don't see the issue with ret being a burst class, it makes us unique. I feel what the rest of you are missing is that we should be asking them to completely remove all other damage and cram it all into our burst - no damage at all unless AW or GoAK is active. Then we get to cut the bullshit and AFK for 60-90 seconds at a time, while seeing satisfying numbers. Losing DPS due to the cenure ticks are less of an issue, because it's still hitting like a truck until it fades.

It'll also address the PvP issues. "We have no damage outside of CDs" - truer than ever. "Execution sentence, although in use being a DPS gain, simply doesn't tick all that hard" - No longer an issue, now the second tick will hit for overkill on a tank unless pain suppression and a tanking CD are active. Think of all the fun other players will be having... You'll get to see 3 teams of Disc, Holy, Blood out of sheer fear that they might come against a ret pally. Bolder teams might be Disc, Resto, Demo. Though, more popular might be Ret, Ret, Ret. If this is found to be in any way unbalanced, I'm sure Blizzard will resolve it some time in the next arena season.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

It's not a problem that ret is a burst oriented spec, but when we have to chose between using our burst to keep our overall dps on a acceptable level (which is still 5-7k dps behind any other dps spec in T14 BiS gear) or use our burst when it's "needed" in the encounter? Don't get me wrong, having a strong burst is very handy for fights like Council of Elders in T15 or Spine of Deathwing in Dragon Soul... but there's rarely more than 2 of theese type of fights in a tier which means we'll be wanted in 2 encounters out of 10-14.

Also there's specs in wow that burst as good as rets or close to us and they got 10k more sustained dps than us, yes I also agree that ret should be a "bursty" spec but not at the cost of being rock bottom by such a huge gap like we are at the moment.

---------- Post added 2013-02-23 at 04:02 PM ----------

DS aoe spreading censure is an excellent idea to the point of overfixing things (gief!), but... it requires SoT and wouldn't that mean permanent exile of SoR which was supposed to be buffed?


Actually Huntingbear gave a great idea. What about HotR giving 1 HoP per target hit?

max 1 holy power per HotR wave, otherwise it would be op.

[Tanyn]

I think it'd be great if they could just buff/remove DP to the point where it was the "sustained damage" option. HotR spreading Censure sounds like a great idea. One that's been around on this forum forever and they haven't done. They could even have HotR debuffs stack in 5 charges. 2% reduced damage each charge and also add a damage component, like adding 2% to holy damage taken from finishers. I don't really mind the 1 HP for each target hit, but it may be a little OP. Maybe cap it at 3? Maybe the more targets you hit with it reduces the CD on it? So, if there's a ton of adds you can SotR / DS spam. Just brainstorming, so none of this is even remotely fleshed out to be a viable idea yet.

[Deleted]

The HotR change that someone suggested above wasn't taking about the HP gain, it was more about being able to use HotR without a target, and giving the one Hpower charge that it normally does IF we hit anything, which I think is a great idea.

DS spreading Censure would be awesome, but I think Blizz is scared to do that on fights where we would have like 20 enemies with Censure, Censure hits quite hard to kinda support our single target sustained, if that went into our aoe at a huge capacity like that our aoe would be through the roof. If saidchange was to occur Blizz would probably cap Censure targets at 5 or something, which I think it okay.

HotR without a target also has been proposed by many people. Currently it's so frustrating with tons of adds and movement.. They're always behind you.
Censure spreading would indeed need balance for high count of adds which would imply single target damage being reduced for Censure. That's why Blizzard would have to compensate on the single target abilities (HP builders, finisher). But, as I said on EJ, this is already being done with DK diseases.. If you look at DK logs in MoP compared to Cataclysm, you see at least one disease on Top3 abilities. They were buffed in 5.0 and they will be furthermore buffed in 5.2 (also Scourge Strike for Unholy). Diseases have no count cap (as I know of) and their presence on target modifies the damage done by other abilities by generous amounts of weapon damage percentages..

And from what I remember, the (10) targets AoE cap was introduced around Ulduar or ToC time, if I remember correctly, which was a bandaid on the matter for the mages and warlocks. On the other hand, you can target other non-Censured mobs and get yourself more than X count cap.. Again, if I remember correctly, that cap wasn't counting all adds at one time with X debuff on them, but limited the spread of a specific ability from a single cast..

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Copy from EU PTR forums I made today.

Seal of Truth
Causese melee attacks to deal 12% additional Holy damage and apply Censure to the target.
Sencure deals (107 ( + 9.4% of SpellPower) *5) additional holy damage over 15 sec. Stacks up to 5 times.

*Idea*
Increase the spellpower scaling to 20% of spellpower, that should take Sencure damage at 5 stacks to 85-90k damage over 15seconds + 30% inquisition for a 512 equipped player unbuffed. This buff would be intended to help the sustained DPS for retribution paladins.
Make Sencure a unique effect so you can only have it on one target at a time to prevent spreading Sencure and making it too strong.

Hammer of the Righteous.
Hammers the current target for 20% weapon damage, causing a wave of light that hits all targets withing 8 yards for 35% Holy weapon damage and applying Weakened Blows effect. Grants a charge of Holy Power.

*idea*
First of all, remove the target requirement, it's horrible for ret to have nothing to break stealth with in pvp and it has obvious flaws in PvE aswell which is seen in Lei Shi encounter when the boss goes invisible and we have no way of hitting the boss.
Change it do do 55% holy damage as a wave effect, maybe increase the cone distance to 10 yards and give 1 holy power if one or more targets are hit by the wave.
This would increase cleave and aoe damage by a good margin aswell as further seperating the Crusader strike / Hammer of the Righteous mathy issue where it's not optimal to use cleave untill there's 3-4 targets that you'll hit with the wave of light.

Divine Storm.
Deals 100% weapon damage as holy damage to all enemies within 8 yards, costs 3 holy power.
*idea*
Simply add a 20% weapon damage dot that ticks 2 times over 4/6 seconds.

Trying to find ways to buff sustained and aoe/cleave dps without too much involvement from haste and mastery is the best option I think, too much "scaling" changes and things will be acting up again.

[Deleted]

So whats the current state of retribution paladin 5.2 damage ? We still have the most ridiculous cleave/aoe, it is an admited problem from blizzard but still no ptr changes to at least test some solutions. Most of the bosses in the new tier have adds /cleave /multidot. Is anyone here have any clue if they are going to at least try to fix this?

Finally i still feel we need a small single target damage buff so we can be competitive with equally skilled warriors/dks . Some ptr feedback for our single target would be welcomed.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

there's announced that ret needs aoe / cleave buffs but nothing specific yet. The 1min shorter CD on AV is a joke and on PTR other specs are crushing ret dps and as if that's not humiliation enough there's 2-3 fights in T15 where melee isn't at a disadvantage before you even start.

[Bonkura]

Yeah they've made some big buffs to other classes. DK's and Hunters looking particularly strong and could very well challenge Warlocks and Mages. Even Spriests seem stronger single target. Shamans and Monks looking better than Rets too. Warriors and Rogues obviously still doing well. I've not seen any good Druids yet but that's the last class left lol. This AW buff is simply not enough.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

In our guilds PTR 25man runs this week affli locks, hunters, moonkins and DKs were strongest dps, might be because of cleaves and multidots etc but seeing those specs doing 140-160k on council and me and the other ret struggle to reach 100k... yeah not looking good, need a shitload of aoe buffs to make us viable.. not like there's alot of room in T15 for melee to begin with.

[Saferis]

As awesome as our AoE spreading censures sounds, I think Blizzard would call that too "OP".

DS itself just needs a raw buff as its priority over TV only comes through until over 4ish targets. That should really be changed to 3 by a simple buff. I think a 30% or so buff sounds reasonable. It would also be nice if HotR wasn't targetted. Its annoying in AoE situations to find out what direction the add im AoEing off of is facing, especially in clusters of adds like on H Wind Lord.

As for burst AoE, if a fight REALLY requires it, just get HA. If there's enough adds, just go HotR - DS - HotR - DS or whatnot.

A SIGNIFICANT BUFF I think could be neat would be if Blizzard made AoW proc off of Censure ticks, not autoattacks, and make Exo ALWAYS cleave for 25% damage, without the range penalty. This way rets who can Censure stack on AoE situations/add clutterings will get crazy AoW procs, and thus more AoE damage. This could add a tactical component to ret AoE instead of just facerolling off of adds.

[Veliane]

As awesome as our AoE spreading censures sounds, I think Blizzard would call that too "OP".

Look at Serpent Spread for Hunters and diseases for Unholy DKs, both instant and both do way more damage.

Censure Spread would mean we can get rid of that archaic SoR.

Or they could make Light's Hammer apply a 5 stack censure on every target it hits instead, I just want to see a MASS CENSURE even if it's a cooldown.

[Reith]

DS itself just needs a raw buff as its priority over TV only comes through until over 4ish targets. That should really be changed to 3 by a simple buff. I think a 30% or so buff sounds reasonable. It would also be nice if HotR wasn't targetted. Its annoying in AoE situations to find out what direction the add im AoEing off of is facing, especially in clusters of adds like on H Wind Lord.

Divine Storm overtakes Templar's Verdict at 2 targets even with T14 2-set on.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Divine Storm overtakes Templar's Verdict at 2 targets even with T14 2-set on.

true but the wave effect of hammer of the righteous and seal of aoe shit is really poor untill you have 4+ targets available, like I said I think DS is fine but it could do with a small buff to make our aoe "better" since hammer of the righteous is clunky as fuck to use.

[catablitz]

I have this feeling that they will make DP passive. Anyway dps is low but let's wait the aoe tuning pass.

[Reith]

true but the wave effect of hammer of the righteous and seal of aoe shit is really poor untill you have 4+ targets available, like I said I think DS is fine but it could do with a small buff to make our aoe "better" since hammer of the righteous is clunky as fuck to use.

Hammer also overtakes Crusader Strike at 2 targets...

Divine Storm probably needs a buff to 120-125% weapon damage. They could go higher if necessary.

[Saferis]

Look at Serpent Spread for Hunters and diseases for Unholy DKs, both instant and both do way more damage.

Censure Spread would mean we can get rid of that archaic SoR.

Or they could make Light's Hammer apply a 5 stack censure on every target it hits instead, I just want to see a MASS CENSURE even if it's a cooldown.

Serpent Sting does not do as much damage as Censure Spread I'd imagine, but DK's do get the diseases which is significantly good. Then keep in mind that's what the class is known for. We have SoR, so you are right; they must either remove it, or we will never get a Censure-stacking AoE.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Hammer also overtakes Crusader Strike at 2 targets...

Divine Storm probably needs a buff to 120-125% weapon damage. They could go higher if necessary.

Yes hammer overtakes CS at 2+ targets but then you actually have to position yourself in a way that makes the wave hit atleast 2 targets which isn't always that easy.