Anaxie's Totally Revolutionary SoO Retribution T16 BiS & Theorycraft

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Ilvl on wep = matters the most. Personally I dislike the mace for any race because it takes up too many potential stats but not a big deal... Polearm is by far the best imo and then it's a toss up between the sword and axe, depends on how much haste you have but I'd say that the garrosh axe is better at really high level because you get capped of with haste quite fast really. Note "capped off" means 17k rating, not in fact a cap but a mark where it drops in value.

[Weightlifter]

Polearm is by far the best

then it's a toss up between the sword and axe

I simmed both the sword and polearm and got exactly the same number, and I literally mean exactly. But that was with my gear.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Yea if you sim your character with the same ilvl garrosh axe you won't see a big difference either (if any) we're talking about maybe the difference of 5-600 mastery/haste (mostly mastery) and when you have ~20k of that and in general 575+ ilvl you won't see any huge gains or losses, it kinda falls back to the talk/topic we had a couple pages back with the crit vs mastery thing. Not trying to revive the topic but mastery is always going to be better in a raiding situation, yes crit can do just as well average as mastery... *blah blah blah* If you want to read the topic go back and read it, point is that mastery (in it's current state) will always give you a dps increase to your lowpoint where crit is not guaranteed and never will be.

[Weightlifter]

Not with that big sample size

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Again, not talking average, talking every single pull or every 20-30sec / minute

[Divinism]

Rotation with SW + T16 Inq > FreeDS(5HP) > TV(5HP) > HoW > FreeDS(AW) > TV(AW) > CS > Judge > FreeDS > Exo > TV(3/4)

Stupid question, but does the underlined part mean during Avenging Wrath? So I should use FreeDS when HoW is on cooldown, but do I also use TV at 3 HP during AW when HoW is not available?

[Meiffert]

Polearm is by far the best

It is hardly by far the best. Since all secondary stats are equal for us with correct reforging, there is pretty much no difference between the weapons, if anything the sword has about 50 more stats overall.

Not trying to revive the topic but mastery is always going to be better in a raiding situation

I don't even know what to tell you any more. We had several pages of discussion and every single test, sim and calculation indicated that mastery is by far the most inconsistent of all the secondary stats.
Mastery is only the best stat if you hope to get lucky on a given pull and rank high on WoL. If you actually want consistent dps for progress as you claim so often, it is the worst stat and you should prefer haste (and even crit) over it.
That being said, unless there are some very extreme situations, it is best to just go for the highest dps setup, which is the one where the stat weights of haste, mastery and crit are equal.
(Extreme situation might be for example a fight where there is only one hard 30 second long dps check on which you use Time Warp. On such a fight you might want to go with much lower haste, because you will be capped anyway.)

Stupid question, but does the underlined part mean during Avenging Wrath? So I should use FreeDS when HoW is on cooldown, but do I also use TV at 3 HP during AW when HoW is not available?

Yes, that is correct.

The weakest ability we ever use during AW is CS. There are never any "empty" GCDs to use Judgment or Exo.
Now the goal is pretty much use CS as seldom as possible, because it is the weakest ability of the four (TV, DS, HoW, CS). If you used it at 3 HP, you would run into a worse overall situation in one of these 2 scenarios:
a) your AW ends soon, so you just used a CS instead of TV while getting the 20 % extra dmg
b) you get lucky in the near future getting multiple 4set DS procs which causes you to cap holy power and waste a HoW CD (you minimize the chance of this happening by keeping yourself at low HP)
Both of these pretty much ended in you using an extra CS insted of either TV/DS (a) or instead of HoW (b) during AW.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

if you look at 5000 pulls, then yes mastery is inconstant in the way that it has a higher potential dps (as simc shows) but for 20 sec/30sec/1min or times when you absolutely need to hit a certain number (above is a bonus, not a requirement) then mastery is better because it increases the "lowpoint" of your dps consistently.
Look at fire mages, if they're set to do Siege Engineers on heroic garrosh and they somehow fail to get a single crit their damage is so much lower than their damage would've been if they had 1 crit. That's an extreme situation, now if that mage was arcane and didn't have to rely on a crit for those 10 seconds he had to do a number then he'd be fine. The number of dps you do after 10minutes in a fight or 5000 x 10min fights isn't what I'm claiming mastery to be superior to crit. It's the "burst" or "low point" (aka absolute worst case, no crits at all) where mastery is better because it's reliable 100% of the time which crit is not.
Yes sure you can say that mastery is the stat to go if you want to hope for a lucky wol rank... but you don't, you go mastery because it's reliable.
Also in any situation where aoe (even 2 targets) which is a lot of the T16 fights mastery gets better than crit. If you go with DP and 4set then it's even more stupid.
Also, simc are only accurate for standstill 100% uptime 100% perfect execution and then replicate that over and over couple thousand times.

But lay it dead, the data is there for people to read and draw their own fucking conclusion. If you're able to play as the logs suggested you're only going to see a 5k dps difference (iirc) on a patchwerk style fight anyways.

[Calimon-ZJ]

I just hope Holy TV's stay in beta and launch with the xpac. Ooooo I can't wait. BOOM HEADSHOT!

[Xtrm]

Can someone tell me what weights they use for Ask Mr. Robot? I use the default Retribution paladin build and it's all sorts of screwed up.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Try setting haste softcap to 17000 rating (you don't need 17k exact but it should be around there if you have T16 4set)
Link your armory and I'm sure there's like 10 guys that'll help you, I'd do anyways.

[Deleted]

I still don't understand why they put that lame seal of faith in our T100 talents.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Seal of Faith can have some uses, might not be needed but all specs have "strange" tools they can do to improve a job they're assigned to do. Druids can spec into that increased healing thing if their tranqs are required to heal a lot, we can spec into light's hammer if we need to assist healing when the raid is stacked up. Yes sure it might be a dps loss (most of the time) and it might only be needed for 3-5 bosses in a whole expansion but still, part of what we can bring = more reasons to bring us.

[Meiffert]

if you look at 5000 pulls, then yes mastery is inconstant in the way that it has a higher potential dps (as simc shows) but for 20 sec/30sec/1min or times when you absolutely need to hit a certain number (above is a bonus, not a requirement) then mastery is better because it increases the "lowpoint" of your dps consistently.

Look, I understand what you are trying to say. I really do, you don't have to explain it every time. You are just wrong.
Let me give you a simple example. Your average dps is 300k. Now you have a 30 seconds long dps check which you do a few hundred times during progression (such as siegecrafter belts). To meet this dps check, you need at least 250k dps during those 30 seconds.
Out of 500 "belt" situations, how often do you do less then 250k dps and fail:
Crit build: 3 times
Mastery build: 20 times
That's because mastery is MORE inconsistent than crit. Crit is MORE often close to your average.
I understand that it is counterintuitive because you would expect mastery to be more consistent since it's lowest possible point is higher, but it just isn't.

Now if we took a look at the no-proc scenario, which would be somewhere below 200k, how often do you get below that?
Mastery build: never (the low point is at this point, you can't get lower)
Crit build: once every 55 million attempts
This here is what is "only theory", because it won't happen to you that you don't crit on a single autoattack, special attack or seal proc during a 30 seconds period of time.

You say you want to end this debate, since the difference between crit and mastery is small either way and I agree, but please stop telling new people who come here for advice the the exact opposite of the information we found out in this very thread.

Can someone tell me what weights they use for Ask Mr. Robot? I use the default Retribution paladin build and it's all sorts of screwed up.

You can find out the stat weights using Simcraft.
The problem is that as you stack one of the stats high (which will happen when you give it the highest value in AskMrRobot), it will boost the other two stats which will then become stronger. The highest dps situation is when the value of haste, mastery and crit are the same.
(Since you asked, I personaly use: Str = 6.8, AP = 3, Hit = 9.4, Exp = 8.6, Has = 5, Mas = 4.95, Crit = 4.9.)

Try setting haste softcap to 17000 rating (you don't need 17k exact but it should be around there if you have T16 4set)

If you want the breakpoint where you get one more HoW during AW, you should make sure that you are at (or slightly over) the breakpoint.
Otherwise you are correct that the cap feature of AskMrRobot is a nice way to go around the the issue of stacking one of the stats too high.

[Ryuji]

Quick question about gemming. I always see sims and such tell you to gem expertise/(whatever stat needed, usually haste till the breakpoint), but is it really better than(in this case) str/haste gems in red sockets? Maybe I'm missing something. Can't exactly go back and read 155 pages worth of info to find it.

Edit: As in, if I were to gem str/haste in red sockets vs. exp/haste, is the dps difference big enough to offset reforging some expertise vs. losing the str?

[Deleted]

Out of 500 "belt" situations, how often do you do less then 250k dps and fail:
Crit build: 3 times
Mastery build: 20 times

In this case, the problem is not that mastery fails 4% of the time while crit fails less than 1% at a time, it's that you don't have enough base DPS to reach that 250K DPS regardless of crit or mastery.

[Deleted]

With the recent buffs to frost DKs, where does Ret place itself now theoretically? I already had a hard time against warriors (they were mostly better). Rogues, shaman and ferals had already been better by far, DKs only close behind me. The way I see it, Ret could be last melee again. Anyone seing a similar picture in Raid?

[Weightlifter]

http://www.simulationcraft.org/541/Raid_T16H.html

[Deleted]

Same procedure, different addon

[Deleted]

arg.... dat simcraft link.... just seeing how fire mages and lock are simmed just shows how different are sim vs patchwerk with non perfect algorythm, and real life raid with skilled raiders and mechanics....

Simcraft is great for stats weights, evaluating how much an item is an upgrade... but to rate dps... please no.