So i dont get why Diablo 3 "failed"

[Redblade]

Diablo is a game that wants to monterize the hype of Diablo 2 so when they went to the investors they said

You do realize that Blizzards risk capital comes from WoW subscribers right?

[icedwarrior]

That's exactly what happened actually. Blizzard north was fired and the game was remade. Diablo 2 and LoD were abandoned.

It matters because their was going to be a REAL heir to Diablo 2 but it was subsequently scrapped in favor of whatever they want to call this game.

So, based on those two quotes, I understand your stance to be this: Blizzard North made a "true" game, only to have it be scrapped and they got fired. A new team came up and created a game that didn't live up to your expectations. Therefore, if we hadn't scrapped the original project, we'd have a "real heir" to Diablo 2. Am I wrong in this?

See that's the problem. Like you can ask peoples opinion about why it failed and get answers. What you shouldn't do is dismiss them as "having to high expectations".

And yet it happens all the time. Players get any bit of information they can, open threads seeking information, participate in Betas, play games faaaaaaar to long, regard older games in what players affectionately call it "rose-tinted glasses", and much more. All of this contributes to unrealistic expectations. Take for example Skyrim. I was excited about the game, but it failed to live up to my expectations. Catherine, on the other hand, I had no expectations about it, and it was hands-down my favorite game of last year. If I had read up about the story, how to effectively rush through content, and all those things, it wouldn't have been near as good a game when I played through it.

Like their are facts about the game that you can argue make it a failure.

See, this is where we largely differ. In my eyes, to fail isn't the correct word here. The correct word to describe Diablo 3 is "disappointment". I could contribute many things that made it "successful", just as you can contribute many things that made it "fail". It doesn't mean that either one is explicitly valid. It only makes it valid to those that choose to accept one side of the argument.

Let's take online only.

I agree, but on a different aspect. I hate that I disconnect a couple of times an hour; dungeon crawling, only to be booted, and have to do more dungeon crawling is annoying, especially when I have yet to do any sort of multiplayer aspect, aside from buying in the gold AH. I hate that there was frequent instances of 4+ second lag, only to find that the game registered me as standing still, all but letting my character take multiple melee hits, standing in fire, etc. letting me die instantly.I will agree with the premise that the game would better suited for single player. But with the inclusion of the RMAH, I believe it is in Blizzard's best interest to keep it online only. This is, and was, a major gripe for me.

We were fed the fact that online only would help them prevent item duping and bots and all sorts of nasty shit. Well it hasn't happened. Item dupes happen and bots run rampant.

I'm just going to take your word on this, because I haven't experienced any rampant cheating and/or duping. Of course, I will be the first to admit that I don't regularly play with others, nor do I frequent the RMAH. HOWEVER, you do know that Blizzard bans in waves, right? This is the proper way to do it. And, I hate to break it to you, but there is always a way to cheat the system. Nothing is fool-proof.

Yes it did to you and I'm not surprised some people feel that way. When you put the label on the can of heinz soup it must be heinz soup then.

I don't understand this comparison, because I don't believe that D3 lived up to the series simply because it shared the name "Diablo". This analogy doesn't hold up.

However the reasons I listed for why people are upset are but a tiny tiny representation of the reasons people generally give.

Well, you listed "bots", "duping" and an ambiguous "other sorts of nasty shit", but I don't mean to be a dick about this. I don't find those few reasons to be a compelling argument as to why the game is a valid disappointment.

That is still however much less of a straw man then saying they all thought it would be the best game ever.

...you do hear people's ridiculous reasons as to why they hate it, right? Again, I'm not saying that if you took the millions of players that play this game, that is the prevailing attitude. I am merely suggesting that, from what I can tell, that is the prevailing attitude amongst the threads on this forum. I in no way share this view, nor do I condone it. The overall negativity is pushing me away from the boards, and any interaction with people on the internet in general.

Like theirs plenty of other reasons and if you actually bothered or cared you could educate yourself on it.

Ah, okay. I know nothing, and don't choose to "educate" myself. Okay.

If the expressed opinions on forums are any judge rarely do I see anybody even come close to saying D3 failed because it wasn't the best game ever. That is so ridiculous but I am not surprised it is offered as a defense.

I think we've touched up about this a few times.

What else can you say about the game?

In generalities? I had fun with the game. I loved the mage-type character, as I always do. I enjoyed the challenge of killing elite monsters, and I even enjoyed raging at the game -- and myself -- for not being able to kill some specific elite monsters. That doesn't mean that the game is without faults, but merely that I enjoyed the game as a whole, rather than focus on what I believe are issues that are either small issues, or will be addressed and fixed later.

I didn't presume that
You did. That is a huge straw man. It is also wholly inaccurate if the general opinion and feeling of people on the forums are taken into account.

You're also missing a HUGE word in there. APPEARS. I never certified it as fact. Again, the feeling I get from the forums is one of pessimism. Can we get off this issue of what the majority feels, and focus on what the subject at hand is? You know, Diablo?

[antonatsis]

You do realize that Blizzards risk capital comes from WoW subscribers right?

this is not a DIABLO thing thouht...this is a ACTIBLIZ thing.They are in the stock market,paying for the game isnt the problem because htey do have the money...the problem is making the people that control the money give the green light.

[abijax]

The better question is how dumb does one have to be to actually think the story is good and rewarding? Apparently those people exist..

It's good for what it is exactly like in cartoons or action movies. It needs to meet different criteria to be considered good, it needs to support the action not to take main stage. Simplistic and clear, with plot twists hinted over and over, obvious characters and so on aren't issues for this kind of story.

[Ravenblade]

So I can no longer expect to have a fun experience buying Blizzard games? The only expectation I had was that the game would be fun and overall an enjoyable experience. It failed to live up to that. Should I now go into buying games only expecting failure? Like at what point are expectations reasonable to have?

Uh, no?

Moderation means to avoid extremes. Going from expecting the best thing since sliced bread to expecting a total failure would not amount to the effect moderation.
What would amount to that would be to accept that it may not be as perfect in the beginning, may have problems or just not right there where people hope it will. There seems to be a rather constant need for replacement which then returns into an eternal hunt for replacements as an effect of perpetual disappointment over unmet expectations hoping that somewhere on the horizon there is that one messiah game where you can bed the remainder of your life in and play it for years.

I understand where people are coming from when they say "I played Diablo 2 for years and I expected something better than Diablo 2 while continuing that tradition". These people were clinging to the words of the guys who promised that for Diablo 3 as well. I personally take such promises with a grain of salt because it is unrealistic. The times have changed, they are much more fast-paced and short-lived and developers back then did not really develop with longevity in mind either it happened by accident. They didn't sit down and say: "You will play Diablo 2 for 10 and more years. Promised!". I would have been very careful with such promises but companies are way too eager these days to make people uniformly happy while they are still not really demigods either.
The same is true for preview videos, it's all nice yes, but usually post-processed, scripted and deliberately done to make you go "shut up and take my money!" mode. I am usually trust neutral hands-on/beta previews of 3rd party sites more than a pre-made video by the producer. Which I think has been a money-saver for me so far.

[Feranor]

Because it was designed to be a cash cow. This is no longer Blizzard North we're talking about. It's Activision Blizzard.

[Buu]

The better question is how dumb does one have to be to actually think the story is good and rewarding? Apparently those people exist..

Apparently dumb enough to press the report on both of you.

The only points that are shady are the 20 years Tyrael had to waste to recompose himself, which I think Metzen could have develop a better and less cheap reason for the time lapse, and that during those years the cult never found even Zoltun Kulle's head.
Would be way more convincing to rescue his head that resisted giving Magda answers because she wasn't as suggestible to manipulation as the Nephalem hero.

For the rest it's a long and detailed history that fits the previous lore, as in which bodies we found on the ruins of old Tristram, the foreshading of Adria in Diablo, and even explains why the demons were slow roasting Cain in Diablo 2, because of Gillian and Adria.

[abijax]

Because it was designed to be a cash cow. This is no longer Blizzard North we're talking about. It's Activision Blizzard.

You know what the project and design leads from Blizzard North did after leaving Blizzard? They designed a cash cow with Hellgate London and failed.

[antonatsis]

You know what the project and design leads from Blizzard North did after leaving Blizzard? They designed a cash cow with Hellgate London and failed.

yeap because they had the blizz mentality :P read an article the other day about that and they said...well we were in blizz for so long that working in any other way seemed not right and guess whats happening when you dont have the money blizz does to do something like that :P and after that they went and made torchligh and see where it is today :P

[Buu]

The reason D3 failed is because its an investment failure.If the gamw was made to sell 10 million copies...why on earth did the made that anouncment from kaplan(or whats his name :P )

JUST Jeff Kaplan? EVERY developer that opened the mouth in public praised the lifespan of the game, saying their goal was to make people play it as long as Diablo 2. That they wanted people to not leave but to keep constantly coming back and interact with each other in the "SAFE ENVIRONMENTS" of their game servers and auction house. And saying that they sold the game, it's not subscription, and that one-time sale made it a huge success...

Well, they spend A LOT of money with always online DRM servers and Auction House hosting, and they NEED people using it to sustain the model, so no, the one time-sale drains fast and soon they will be forced to give us the offline option, simply because they can't keep the model of sustaining a server for everyone, when most of those people aren't spending on the RMAH. They need to trim this population for then to take REAL ACTION against botters and scammers.

Hell, even their star feature the gold sales for real money is screwed, with people being scammed, and legitimate sales being made OUTSIDE the RMAH, were Blizzard see no dime, because after FORCING the players to acquire gold with extra repair bills they forced a minimum price on gold at RMAH, eliminating the chance of gold-sellers to compete in the legitimate market, thus creating the black market, where they can't charge their taxes.

Which in turn makes it a self sustained model, because without the taxes the prices get EVEN LOWER and attract even more people.

[Leonard McCoy]

Apparently dumb enough to press the report on both of you.

Apparently their is simply no accounting for taste or quality. That's fine. Enjoy your substandard piss poor writing.

---------- Post added 2012-08-08 at 01:19 PM ----------

Uh, no?

Moderation means to avoid extremes. Going from expecting the best thing since sliced bread to expecting a total failure would not amount to the effect moderation.
What would amount to that would be to accept that it may not be as perfect in the beginning, may have problems or just not right there where people hope it will. There seems to be a rather constant need for replacement which then returns into an eternal hunt for replacements as an effect of perpetual disappointment over unmet expectations hoping that somewhere on the horizon there is that one messiah game where you can bed the remainder of your life in and play it for years.

Okay but I don't see that. Where do you see people going to the extremes in praising diablo before hand? Where are the people who thought it would be the best game ever? I don't see them and didn't see them before hand either. Their is extremely little evidence that suggests people had extreme hype for Diablo 3. The people who are criticizing Diablo aren't criticizing it on the grounds that it failed to meet those extreme expectations. Their criticizing that it failed to meet even the most modest of ones.

---------- Post added 2012-08-08 at 01:32 PM ----------

It's good for what it is exactly like in cartoons or action movies. It needs to meet different criteria to be considered good, it needs to support the action not to take main stage. Simplistic and clear, with plot twists hinted over and over, obvious characters and so on aren't issues for this kind of story.

Saying the plot twists are hinted at is a clever euphemism. They beat you in the face with it constantly and they lack any subtelty. You'd have to be a child to not figure out what Leia was (and even then my nephew figured it out pretty fast) and you'd have to be of similar mental capacity not to figure that both adria and zultan would betray you. Hell I knew who the man was at the bottom of the cathedral pretty early on as well. Nothing about the plot "twists" in this game was surprising in the least. It is simply the most obvious and offensive thing I can recall being subjected to in recent memory. It feels like an afterthought on their part, I am left to ask why bother having a story if it was gonna be so half assed...

[antonatsis]

JUST Jeff Kaplan? EVERY developer that opened the mouth in public praised the lifespan of the game, saying their goal was to make people play it as long as Diablo 2. That they wanted people to not leave but to keep constantly coming back and interact with each other in the "SAFE ENVIRONMENTS" of their game servers and auction house. And saying that they sold the game, it's not subscription, and that one-time sale made it a huge success...

Well, they spend A LOT of money with always online DRM servers and Auction House hosting, and they NEED people using it to sustain the model, so no, the one time-sale drains fast and soon they will be forced to give us the offline option, simply because they can't keep the model of sustaining a server for everyone, when most of those people aren't spending on the RMAH. They need to trim this population for then to take REAL ACTION against botters and scammers.

Hell, even their star feature the gold sales for real money is screwed, with people being scammed, and legitimate sales being made OUTSIDE the RMAH, were Blizzard see no dime, because after FORCING the players to acquire gold with extra repair bills they forced a minimum price on gold at RMAH, eliminating the chance of gold-sellers to compete in the legitimate market, thus creating the black market, where they can't charge their taxes.

Which in turn makes it a self sustained model, because without the taxes the prices get EVEN LOWER and attract even more people.

i was refering to the letter that was saying everything is ok,the only other time he wrote a letter like this was back in 2004 for WoW i think.The rest i agree :P

[Swendel]

I will break it down for you as easily as I can. Most of us that played D2 and that were excited about D3, played D2 when were in our teens. Teens usually have an unlimited amount of playtime. We are obviously adults now with real life things and we don't have as much time to invest in D3. Rest assured that the new generation of teens are still playing, us adults just finished the game and became bored.

[quras]

Because it was designed to be a cash cow. This is no longer Blizzard North we're talking about. It's Activision Blizzard.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. ^

Way to much business got put into the game.

[BenBos]

For those hyping about Blizzard North : Bill Roper says hi !

Together with Gaute Godage FunCom and Mark Jacobs Mythic , Bill Roper must be the biggest idiot in this industry.

In fact most designers never achieved anything great after they left Blizzard, but Bill Roper topped them all by making one dud after the other.

These guys combined low sales and bad reviews in games that were hyped through the roof.

So it would be very wise to stop mentioning these guys ever again.

[Ravenblade]

Okay but I don't see that. Where do you see people going to the extremes in praising diablo before hand? Where are the people who thought it would be the best game ever? I don't see them and didn't see them before hand either. Their is extremely little evidence that suggests people had extreme hype for Diablo 3. The people who are criticizing Diablo aren't criticizing it on the grounds that it failed to meet those extreme expectations. Their criticizing that it failed to meet even the most modest of ones.

Well, you were saying that moderating expectation is equal to expecting total failure therefore I assumed it to be a hyperbole and blended in mine in the form of "best thing since sliced bread". I think we can agree on that only a minority followed the latter but they have been there and have been polarizing a lot other more or less interested as they stood out and as time went on to the point where even Blizzard said they shouldn't expect a miracle to happen - in a diplomatic/spindoctor (if you like that word better) way.

As an example there is a most popular thread on EU forums was written by a 500+ hrs. disappointed guy who bought 4k € worth of equipment for Diablo 3 alone. Seeing it hit the cap very fast and its successor thread nearing the same cap it seems he wasn't alone with his expectations and at least the resulting numerous (selected 100) gripes. Either we dismiss them as vocal minority or as vocal part of a majority.

Now I must ask: What is a most modest expectation in your eyes?

[antonatsis]

For those hyping about Blizzard North : Bill Roper says hi !

Together with Gaute Godage FunCom and Mark Jacobs Mythic , Bill Roper must be the biggest idiot in this industry.

In fact most designers never achieved anything great after they left Blizzard, but Bill Roper topped them all by making one dud after the other.

These guys combined low sales and bad reviews in games that were hyped through the roof.

So it would be very wise to stop mentioning these guys ever again.

well Guild Wars and Torchlight are games from major developers of BLIZZ not some random guy that worked there for some time but major dudes :P so they seem to be doing prettty good.

[Ravenblade]

well Guild Wars and Torchlight are games from major developers of BLIZZ not some random guy that worked there for some time but major dudes :P so they seem to be doing prettty good.

That's a pretty loaded statement really. ArenaNet was founded by three former Blizzard developers who held mainly the position as programmers of various rank and Guild Wars 1 was their first title where they made active design experiences but still didn't stray too far from their main profession. Guild Wars 2 was done with only Mike O'Brien left in lead. Torchlight was the inofficial successor to their previous game Mythos and it was originally planned to be a MMO but they decided not to repeat the mistakes of HG:L and start small. It is also not the work of the ex-Blizzard North people alone - the father of Torchlight is Travis Baldree and he has never been on Blizzard's payroll. That said there were more non-Blizzard than ex-Blizzard people working on these games and thus the games should be seen as their work as well and evaluated on their own merits instead.

However the comparison with Bill Roper should prove that ex-Blizzard does not equal constant success and HG:L failed with ex-Blizzard North people in charge.

[insmek]

well Guild Wars and Torchlight are games from major developers of BLIZZ not some random guy that worked there for some time but major dudes :P so they seem to be doing prettty good.

There's a solid half-dozen companies that can lay claim to having major Blizzard employees on staff. Turnover among tech companies is really high, particularly for software companies between projects. It only means so much.

[Leonard McCoy]

Well, you were saying that moderating expectation is equal to expecting total failure therefore I assumed it to be a hyperbole and blended in mine in the form of "best thing since sliced bread". I think we can agree on that only a minority followed the latter but they have been there and have been polarizing a lot other more or less interested as they stood out and as time went on to the point where even Blizzard said they shouldn't expect a miracle to happen - in a diplomatic/spindoctor (if you like that word better) way.

As an example there is a most popular thread on EU forums was written by a 500+ hrs. disappointed guy who bought 4k € worth of equipment for Diablo 3 alone. Seeing it hit the cap very fast and its successor thread nearing the same cap it seems he wasn't alone with his expectations and at least the resulting numerous (selected 100) gripes. Either we dismiss them as vocal minority or as vocal part of a majority.

Now I must ask: What is a most modest expectation in your eyes?

That they would grow the game from Diablo 2. They have in some aspects but they haven't in others. That they would do proper testing of their developed product. That is entirely modest. Given that literally every Blizzard game up until this point has been excellent, I'm not sure why it isn't a modest expectation to expect exactly that.

As for that particular thread on the forum, frankly 500 hours is the MINIMUM I should get from a game like diablo. The game is built on grinding the same thing over and over again for hours in the quest for better and better gear and should CONSUME lots of peoples time. It doesn't because well for all it's shortcomings and flaws it simply lacks the draw that it's predecessor had.

I don't expect a miracle to happen from Blizzard. Frankly people are treating this like an MMO (as are the developers in some cases) so they expect MMO like fixes. I wouldn't hold my breath.