Are Ranged Casters Created Equal In PvP?

[Cempa]

When considering all forms of PvP and that people play MMO's to feel heroic, are casters or ranged caster DPS created equal?

I look at builds such as Frost Mage, Affliction Warlock, Balance Druid, Shadow Priest and Elemental Shaman and know we do not want homogenized classes and talents but ask myself how well do they mitigate damage. After all DPS casters can not tank so they need to avoid damage by some means. I ask my self do some do it better than others by a small or large margin?

Do we have a clear winner as some may suggest such as Frost Mages and a clear loser or did Blizzard do a great job and allow all the DPS casters to mitigate just as well in all forms of PvP?

After all if Frost Mages and even Fire Mages can feel heroic in all forms of PvP, shouldn't every other class also get to feel heroic in all forms of PvP as well?

[Blueobelisk]

Feels like this thread is drama prone..

Uhhh. No PVP is not balanced. And I personally do not feel bad if balance/ele/shadow have less viable compositions in Arena, if played well they can still fit in. Not to mention a quick respec can make them especially viable, or that they're all perfectly viable for RBGs now.

[Deleted]

When considering all forms of PvP and that people play MMO's to feel heroic, are casters or ranged caster DPS created equal?

I look at builds such as Frost Mage, Affliction Warlock, Balance Druid, Shadow Priest and Elemental Shaman and know we do not want homogenized classes and talents but ask myself how well do they mitigate damage. After all DPS casters can not tank so they need to avoid damage by some means. I ask my self do some do it better than others by a small or large margin?

Do we have a clear winner as some may suggest such as Frost Mages and a clear loser or did Blizzard do a great job and allow all the DPS casters to mitigate just as well in all forms of PvP?

After all if Frost Mages and even Fire Mages can feel heroic in all forms of PvP, shouldn't every other class also get to feel heroic in all forms of PvP as well?

Aslong pve exists, there will not be any balance so many other forms of pvp can feel heroic as mage can with different spec

[Stormykitten]

Yes, some casters require healers to a much higher degree due to their defense design. Take Aff (or any) Lock as an example - they are probably the weakest class in the game 1v1, or at least one or the weaker, and yet when they have a healer, especially a restoshaman, just look at high end arena and their defense is actually better than a Frost mage, thanks to their incredible +healing recieved and their defense CC being more suitable to when they can actually tank.

I -think- they are trying to give some of this to all casters in MoP, at least I felt more like a mage on my Ele than before in this regard, same on my moonkin. But I kind of agree with you that if you want to just pug BG's and such without friends, Mage gives a lot less frustration than the others. Annoyingly I prefer some of the others so I go in with the possible frustration in mind. :P

[Cempa]

My Vanilla main was a Frost Mage, raided everything pre nax and reached rank 14 -if that was the highest rank I do not recall now it was a horrible grind that I would not wish on my worst enemy. Come TBC and you know what happened to Mages while warlocks become sacrifice shadow bolt spam turrets and Elemental Shaman in PvP was not the scary power house it was in Vanilla.

I'm trying to understand how game designers are addressing the classes balance wise in PvP from the perspective of feeling heroic? Or are they simply ignoring that aspect of MMO game play?

If I really enjoy immersing my self into the Warlock class lore and all, enjoy the idea of teh class, Life Tap mechanic and whatnot, should I feel heroic in all aspects of PvP? I also have a Mage and I feel heroic questing in PvP areas, solo queuing or doing group based PvP!

That pretty much sums up why I left WoW, I realized Blizzard did not care about the heroic bit....

[Uricidea]

My 1st question here is: Just how do you describe "feeling heroic"? What does that mean? It sounds a bit like you want your class of choice to be OP.

Do you expect to be able to beat any other class, all of the time? Or, do you just expect a fair chance? There are a number of classes, if yours isn't giving you the heroic feeling maybe it's time to re-roll. This isn't an insult, it's realism. Balance in this game historically has been difficult, and the results are some classes are FotM for each Patch. The common process is to discover that patches favorites, roll one of those classes, and boom Heroic Feeling.

Maybe after a little definition of what that "heroic feeling" means some of us might be able to discuss this with more clarity.

[Cempa]

We immerse ourselves into MMO game play and do heroic stuff as in shoot bolts out of our hands or carry huge weapons and charge our target from a distance or joining up with more players and defeating a massive boss! You feel heroic in your own online story.

Regarding PvE I think game designers are pretty good, we all perform according to how well we have learned our class, other classes and the encounter!

My issue is in PvP because I spend most of my online time doing PvP be it Guild Wars, Rift or Star Wars I always PvP even level via PvP.

I left WoW after 6 years of playing because the class I am most passionate about now felt like a wet piece of paper when I venture out alone in the world questing or gathering or whatever and get jumped! When I join BG's! I was extremely unlucky with arena as I never found a stable group, always falling apart or just not meshing well.

I just think that each and every class should feel powerful and heroic in all forms of game play be it PvE -which is the case here- and PvP! If I think shooting lightning out of my hands is the coolest thing since pop tarts I should be able to venture out in the world and all forms of PvP feeling like a boss and so should every class.

Counters exists, homogenized classes suck but when every class is a counter to you that is too much. When one kind of melee counter you such as rogues that's cool, but when all kinds of melee counter you as well as some casters and ranged -which here is just hunters- something is not right!

[Deleted]

As a balance druid, I always felt we suck in defense. (respeccing will not solve it. hybrids tend to like 1 role, so we actually have 1 spec to chose from without shifting roles.... it is the same for pures, they don't change roles, but still have choices without doing it) But in MoP it seems like we will gain huge amount of tools to handle the problem. Finally we may end up as good in defense instead of crap.

To answer the question: "Are ranged casters created equal in PVP?" - No they are miles away from being close in balance.

[Deleted]

I dont think they are. because it all depends on the player..... mechanically, probably yes.

[Bluesftw]

Shaman in PvP was not the scary power house it was in Vanilla.

sorry but only scarry thing in vanilla shaman pvp was rng behind windfurry and will it chain enough to oneshot you ^^

[Deleted]

I dont think they are. because it all depends on the player..... mechanically, probably yes.

It does not depend on the player. If you get an old and weak car and have to win against a sport car, even if you are the best racer in the world and you win with the shittiy one. It will still count as a bad car, right? In that case the good driver would make a better time with the best car too.
Even if you can possibily reach the same but it will make you sweat blood with some specializations.

[Cempa]

One of the reasons I made this post is to ask people for information: On my Mage I feel heroic or strong in all PvP areas all the times. I felt heroic in every part of the game...Do others feel that way playing Elemental Shaman and Balance druid and Shadow Priest? Meaning on a PvP server with some world PvP do you go out and do quests and gather feeling like a boss like I do on my Frost Mage?

[Livevil]

I don't know about heroic, certainly more confident though. It stems from the fact that mages are overpowered and quite easy to play in solo scenarios. Taking your example if i get jumped by a rogue or a feral druid or w/e on my warlock it is an uphill battle from the get go, on my mage though i couldn't care less since i can handle it way easier.

[Saent]

Or maybe they don't make all casters as heroic (overpowered) as Mages, and nerf mage burst and CC, nerf warlock CC and passive defenses, nerf moonkin AoE damage, nerf shadow priest burst, and leave ele alone. Some of that seems to be happening with MoP already.

And I half suspect this thread is just a big joke about mages being overpowered without him actually saying it.

[Eroginous]

The different casters are:

Mage
Warlock
Hunter (yes, this is treated as a caster)
Boomkin
Spriest
Elemental Shaman


For game balance each one is given tools that are designed to be good for the class in general. Mages don't have a healing button where they can spam heals when they are in trouble. Instead, they have Ice Block, Shields, and other CCs to stop incoming damage, instead of being able to heal it. On that same tangent, hunters and warlocks have the same kind of design, CCs instead of healing buttons.

On the flip side, Boomkins, Spriests, and Elemental shamans have healing buttons they can spam, so they aren't given nearly as much CC (though Cyclone is arguably one of the best CC spells in the game). Druid heals are much weaker than priests or shamans, and in exchange, they get more CC tools to balance for weaker heals, but still not as much CC as what mages, locks, and hunters have.

[lilisk]

Yes, some casters require healers to a much higher degree due to their defense design. Take Aff (or any) Lock as an example - they are probably the weakest class in the game 1v1, or at least one or the weaker, and yet when they have a healer, especially a restoshaman, just look at high end arena and their defense is actually better than a Frost mage, thanks to their incredible +healing recieved and their defense CC being more suitable to when they can actually tank.

I -think- they are trying to give some of this to all casters in MoP, at least I felt more like a mage on my Ele than before in this regard, same on my moonkin. But I kind of agree with you that if you want to just pug BG's and such without friends, Mage gives a lot less frustration than the others. Annoyingly I prefer some of the others so I go in with the possible frustration in mind. :P

I think this post says it best, even when my lock and dk were in similar pvp gear, when I got to pick which to bring out for somone ganking or such, I would always go to the dk, yes I know dks are "lol no skill op class" to some people but (this was also S9/S10) my lock just couldn't kill any good pvper solo (I know, play better noob). My mage friend just kinda was able to kill anything though, even 2v1ing in so-so gear.

[muto]

Shaman, and Druids are on the bottom of the barrel when it comes to Ranged Casters in PvP with Mages, Shadow Priests and Warlocks at the top.

[Cempa]

This is what I don't get the fact that some -if not most- clearly identify certain builds as much better than others! Feral Druid or DK or Frost Mage, why is that, why is it so clear to players yet game designers seem to not agree?

The only reasoning I can reach is that Blizzard forgot about the feeling heroic in all aspects of the game, they focused on PvE and arena and all other forms of PvP were not an issue unless an ability was out of whack -like when Conflagration was dropping people like flies for a brief day or two.

I suspect this is a big reason why Western MMO players have been looking for something other than WoW for a while now and are eager for a change.

ArenaNet seems to be on the right track whether you like Guild Wars or not, what ever profession you pick -class- you will feel heroic, strong and capable of taking on quests, instances and players!

In any case this thread is not about comparing MMO's else it will get derailed horribly.

This thread's deeper intent was to ask the community what they think about immersion and feeling heroic playing WoW and the class/role you like?

Some have answered clearly stating they feel more heroic or stronger with one class over another and others have put together a ranked list from stronger to weaker. To me as a gamer I get turned off by game design that clearly has classes/roles being much weaker than others in all forms of PvP!

[Ryft]

In fairness its pretty hard to balance different playstyles. Especially when you consider that some specs are harder to master than others, and as such are perceived as weaker.

[Deleted]

It is clearly impossible to balance equally, but I think it is not the reason why classes are so different. Blizzard does it on purpose. You can't make everyone feel heroic, because then noone will feel like that. They choose more popular specializations and make them better. So at least most of the players will feel good. Other possible solution, they need to keep some specializations down so other specializations of the class won't get too low populated. i.e.: they keep elemental shamans weaker so we will have enough resto shamans. If they would buff elemental in a pach, some restos would just switch to that and we would end up without enough healers. This is not speculation. It happened before, when they buffed balance druids and suddenly moonkins appeared all around the battlegrounds and resto druids seemed a bit extinct. It seems like some of the healers actually want to be a dd but since their dd spec is weak the go heal. If that dd spec get buffed they switch back happily and cause lack of healers.