Casual raiders: asking for the achievement.

[markdall]

Actually it's EXACTLY like a job application: For example, college degrees in fields where if you have enough experience, it doesn't matter: When they're looking through tens (or more) applications/resumes, they weed out people without degrees. Not because those people couldn't do the job, or even do it better than some of the remaining candidates, but rather because it's an easy metric for them to narrow down the pool.

Yes, it sucks, but hopefully this explains it. I don't like it either but it's not going to change.

[Dirtybird42o]

Who cares about achivements... as long as they are gemmed and enchanted properly I'll give them a shot.

[Aqua]

Yeah but ...I hate people so I have to make sure they at least can't irritate me for an hour. Only way is asking for achievements.

SORRY.

(I jest of course, I've not led a raid since I had to kick the dregs of my servers decent raiders through heroic ICC in an early cata attempt to give a few friends the Light of Dawn achievement and finish a Shadowmourne. But seriously it was 2 hours of me abusing the fuck out of the raidwarning and insulting people, I can't tolerate incompetence on that level.)

I usually just use my Alts as proof... Our server side is so diminished anyway so it's a little hard to find noobs as it is decent players.

[Madisyn]

I was over on my Alliance server this morning. Saw a few groups trying to put a pug together for 10 DS Normal. Their requirements were, "400+ ilvl, link achievement, fall below 35k dps you will be kicked, Cunning on reserve, Madness weps on reserve"

I had time and actually felt like raiding, so I made my own pug, only requirement was to have vent, have proper ilvl gear, be gemmed and enchanted. Had 2 of those guys that were trying to put their run together whisper me telling me how fail I was and they were going to sit there and laugh at me when we failed on trash leading up to Morchok.

We did 4/8 HC in less than 3 hours as a pug group. Not hard at all, only wiped once on each boss (which imo, was decent considering no one other than myself and one other person had 8/8 HC). It turned out to be a really good group of people and I had fun (made me realize that I did miss raiding), so we're going to run again on Sunday and attempt some achieves, possibly add in H Gunship.

I cringe when I see some of the demands raid leaders of pug groups are spamming trade chat with. Of course I know most want to be carried, others don't have the time or patience to deal with inexperienced players/groups. I just find it a bit ridiculous when I do whisper the person trying to put the group together and ask them for their achieve, they can't link it or when they do link something, it's from someone else (like I can't read or won't notice).

[Deleted]

I saw one the other day saying "LFM BT 85's only warglaives and dk tier reserved" made me giggle

[Handlebardoc]

To preface my post, this is coming from someone who pugs multiple DS'es every week.

When I spam trade for people, I ask for role and ilvl. I also ask for achievement, in case they have it. But every person that whispers me I will look up and armory; about 95% of the time I will invite them if they are fully gemmed/enchanted and pass the wowarmory audit. Having the achiev, on the toon they are taking or any other, is a huge plus for me. Now, I am not a huge fan of getting people nowadays the achiev, but that is because I know that on my server almost everyone has it, and I did plenty of pug DS'es for achievements earlier in this content. I don't demand 400+ ilvl and 8/8 H exp, but I don't invite just everyone. Most of the time my pugs kill at least Morchok and Ultra, more if the group is competent.

[Deleted]

So, if im making a HC Ds pug i should invite people without achievs? I don't agree with you, i started pugging in BWD/BoT and at first i invited people without achievs, i explained as well as i could in /RA, but GLHF if they don't have experience...

You can't know for sure if anyone is experienced, especially if they're on an alt because you cant check for other achievs, that is why pugging requires you to have an achievement. I dare you to make a pug in any of catas raid having only people without the achiev, see how far you get

[Seriss]

So, if im making a HC Ds pug i should invite people without achievs? I don't agree with you, i started pugging in BWD/BoT and at first i invited people without achievs, i explained as well as i could in /RA, but GLHF if they don't have experience...

You can't know for sure if anyone is experienced, especially if they're on an alt because you cant check for other achievs, that is why pugging requires you to have an achievement. I dare you to make a pug in any of catas raid having only people without the achiev, see how far you get

*shudders* PuGging T11 content is like pulling teeth. *tears out hair at PuGged Sinestra* "I'm doing so little dps because I'm rather concentrating on orbs and stuff!" "Ok, then why did you die to orbs AGAIN?!"

[Spotnick]

Make your own group if you don't like the ones done by those making those groups. As simple as that.

The people asking for achievement are just too lazy to explain the fight to anyone and wish to complete it as quick as possible, or want to be carried.

[alturic]

"LFM Blackwing Descent normal, a raid we've outgeared ages ago! /w me Ilvl, 8/8 Dragon Soul heroic achievement, have Ventrilo, Skype, MSN, bring 30+ flasks of every type, 500 different kind of food, have repairing mount, come Cathedral Square for inspect, link me also your phone number so i can rage directly at you should you fail! Need just last, then we can go!"

...I'm just exaggerating A BIT the amount of things people ask while looking for group.
Last time i checked World of Warcraft was a game, not a job apply.

But the most annoying thing is "no achievement, no invite". The popular phrase, "If we don't need you i won't even bother to answer, because i'm a VIP and i can" is a close one that i surely hate.

Don't get me wrong, i agree the achievement helps verifying if you know the fight, can do it properly and such.
But people nowadays, well at least most of them, rely on the achievement ONLY. Pugging is harder than raiding with your own guild, just because you NEED to be annoyed with the proper raid achievement.

Even if you outgear the content by far, even if you made many unsuccesful tries on a certain fight and failed (which means you know the tactics, just you didn't kill the boss), even if you are a quick learner and are a reliable person..

It doesn't matter.
YOU NEED THE ACHIEVEMENT.

I know someone out there is so obtuse he'd fail even after a complete explaination, but this is not the case.


Long story short: "Dear guy who asks for achievement, remember that once you had to earn it yourself. I don't think you just logged in and earned your Savior of Azeroth".
There are people behind achievements. Capable people.

Please stop that.

I know when I would setup pugs, I'd be a little forgiving on old tier achieves because the core group of people I set it up with all knew the fights because I killed it with them. We didn't care if you didn't clear any of it, we'd just take you to fill the spot.

If I'm pugging a spot in DS, I do want the achieve though.

[Lord Pebbleton]

Worst case, get yourself UnderAchiever.

I got my Destroyer's End using said Add-On after watching tactics. You'd be surprised i were the first on DPS!
It works most times, unless you find the guy that checks Armory...

I agree, except with one part wich is teamspek,mubmle vent etc. From my expierence if player is "good" enough to enter ts, and can talk on it he mostly know what to do and if not he will understand after quick explain. I agree that 395+ilev and achiev for ds normal is silly. That's why i start my "pug leader" carrer where ilev req. is 378 and ts with workin mic.

Aye, i'm sorry i included that in my first post because i know Teamspeak, Mumble and Ventrilo are useful for fast comunication.
My hatred for them comes from the fact that it makes me feel ridicolous (again, it's a personal thing i have, sorry if i included it OT); i never even use Skype if i want to speak with friend, why would i speak directly to people i don't know and i'll never see again? And why should i use it for normal Dragon Soul or even heroic DS? Every time i joined a heroic pug i just entered Ventrilo, removed audio, pretended i was there listening carefully and killed the boss for good. Almost everytime i was among those who did best.
You'd be surprised how many people behave like this: you aren't on Ventrilo? You're out! You are on Ventrilo but you are just pretending to be listening? Fine, as long as i see your name on the list!

It's pretty dumb from me and i know that, just... it makes me feel like i'm the Lord of Nerds. I'm twisted i know.

[alturic]

I got my Destroyer's End using said Add-On after watching tactics. You'd be surprised i were the first on DPS!
It works most times, unless you find the guy that checks Armory...

Hmm, I thought every good pug leader did check armory.

Aye, i'm sorry i included that in my first post because i know Teamspeak, Mumble and Ventrilo are useful for fast comunication.
My hatred for them comes from the fact that it makes me feel ridicolous (again, it's a personal thing i have, sorry if i included it OT); i never even use Skype if i want to speak with friend, why would i speak directly to people i don't know and i'll never see again? And why should i use it for normal Dragon Soul or even heroic DS? Every time i joined a heroic pug i just entered Ventrilo, removed audio, pretended i was there listening carefully and killed the boss for good. Almost everytime i was among those who did best.
You'd be surprised how many people behave like this: you aren't on Ventrilo? You're out! You are on Ventrilo but you are just pretending to be listening? Fine, as long as i see your name on the list!

It's pretty dumb from me and i know that, just... it makes me feel like i'm the Lord of Nerds. I'm twisted i know.

It is easier because when that person fucks up, or you test them to see if they are listening (I love doing this part), when they don't answer you just kick them after a few seconds.

Also to add to my previous post. I personally love the pug leaders who requires achieves but don't have the ones they are asking for themselves.

[Wilderness]

Long story short: "Dear guy who asks for achievement, remember that once you had to earn it yourself. I don't think you just logged in and earned your Savior of Azeroth".
There are people behind achievements. Capable people.

Please stop that.

I hate this argument. Why do you think that this person running the group should be responsible for getting you that achievement? That's ridiculous. If you don't have an achievement then a) make your own group, or b) wait for someone who will take you based on your guild, or who your main is, or that you are gemmed/echanted/correctly.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with someone setting requirements to join the raids that they are running. When you put together a PUG you really have no idea what the skill level of the people are. There are ways to infer how well they can play - how they are geared, gemmed, and enchanted; what guild they are in; what achievements they have. All of those ways are all somewhat unreliable. Of course you can have the achievement and still be terrible and stand in fire. You might be great on your main and in a good guild but be a horrible healer. When you make a group full of people you don't know there's always going to be a variance of skill level, but setting requirements beforehand is how you can attempt to eliminate the absolutely horrible players.

It is up to each person putting together a PUG to determine how they judge potential people and who they want in their group. You don't like that they require an achievement? Form your own raid. Think its silly to require Savior of Azeroth for that Naxx 10 group? Yeah, its probably a bit of overkill. But its their right to put together their raids however they wish. Don't come here and bitch about it, there is no reason that they should have to take a chance on you.

[Lord Pebbleton]

In other news, I heard whining about things on some random forum is the best way to change everyone's behavior.

I'm not whining, i'm just expressing my thoughts and listening to others'. This achievement requirement can be pretty tedious you know, and that's why i made this post.

On the other hand, where shall i write this down? Shall i start raging in trade channel? Or should i write a ticket to Blizzard along the lines "Dear Blizzard, people ask me for achievement. Do something"?

I hate this argument. Why do you think that this person running the group should be responsible for getting you that achievement? That's ridiculous. If you don't have an achievement then a) make your own group, or b) wait for someone who will take you based on your guild, or who your main is, or that you are gemmed/echanted/correctly.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with someone setting requirements to join the raids that they are running. When you put together a PUG you really have no idea what the skill level of the people are. There are ways to infer how well they can play - how they are geared, gemmed, and enchanted; what guild they are in; what achievements they have. All of those ways are all somewhat unreliable. Of course you can have the achievement and still be terrible and stand in fire. You might be great on your main and in a good guild but be a horrible healer. When you make a group full of people you don't know there's always going to be a variance of skill level, but setting requirements beforehand is how you can attempt to eliminate the absolutely horrible players.

It is up to each person putting together a PUG to determine how they judge potential people and who they want in their group. You don't like that they require an achievement? Form your own raid. Think its silly to require Savior of Azeroth for that Naxx 10 group? Yeah, its probably a bit of overkill. But its their right to put together their raids however they wish. Don't come here and bitch about it, there is no reason that they should have to take a chance on you.

While i agree achievement is a way to recognize if people are capable or not, my point is that almost every raid leader i met asks MAINLY for it.
You may have earned the achievement because they carried you and you died at start of Deathwing to say, and so you have Destroyer's End while you know nothing about tactics and your gear isn't good enough.

Would you take the one with Destroyer's End without brain/gear for your normal Dragon Soul, or the one without achievement that read the tactics and has a good Ilvl?
While it is very possible to find someone with gear, brain and achievement, that's not always the case.
That's what i am complaining for: achievement means little if nothing.

[Sharrel]

I've seen people trying to get an all 85 group for Karazhan.
My toons that already have achivements are saved to guild runs. i do sometimes manage to get into pugs, but they usually fail somewhere around Ultraxion or the ship. never could figure out what's so hard about pushing a button at the right time.
The longer something is out, the more it's nerfed, the higher ilevel and listed achievements people want. just seems to be the way it is.

[thunderdragon2]

Who cares about achivements... as long as they are gemmed and enchanted properly I'll give them a shot.

i do that also i also take ppl that have the acheives on their main

i was talking to a friend of mine about this yday he said the wouldnt pug because he didnt have the acheive for say ds on the char he was going on but he has it on main so he got de[pressed unfortunatly all for of mine were saved br nmy main at spine be4 i could say ill make 1 form spine he logged of last thing he said be4 he logged is "i think ill quit till mop since i cnat do anything on my alts w/o acheives"

pritty sad kinda wish acheivements werent impelented

[Wilderness]

While i agree achievement is a way to recognize if people are capable or not, my point is that almost every raid leader i met asks MAINLY for it.
You may have earned the achievement because they carried you and you died at start of Deathwing to say, and so you have Destroyer's End while you know nothing about tactics and your gear isn't good enough.

Would you take the one with Destroyer's End without brain/gear for your normal Dragon Soul, or the one without achievement that read the tactics and has a good Ilvl?
While it is very possible to find someone with gear, brain and achievement, that's not always the case.
That's what i am complaining for: achievement means little if nothing.

I agree that achievements generally don't mean a lot when you are putting together a group. They are simply the easiest way to at least know someone has seen all the fights. I don't usually run PUGs much myself, but when I do I don't put any requirements and simply armory the people who respond and select them based on what I see there. I've found that to be more reliable than anything else, but nothing is perfect because you are dealing with people you don't know and there's a whole wide range of skill among wow players.

But a lot of people take the "easy" way out of asking for achievements. There is nothing wrong with that, and there is no reason that they should do anything else if that's how they want to do it. Just set up your own group, or wait for a group that will take you because you have prepared in other ways and just don't have the achievement yet. The latter 2 options are more likely, in my opinion, to yield a successful group than the person who just mindlessly wants an achievement and ilvl anyway.

[thunderdragon2]

The longer something is out, the more it's nerfed, the higher ilevel and listed achievements people want. just seems to be the way it is.

this is true but very sad ive seem ppl asking for 395 ilvl and destroyer's for..wait for it...ds NORMAL yes NORMAL at ilvl 395 theres not much point of going ds normal sure theres a few peices missing but comon that ilvl req for normal is retarded when i make a ds pug i dont post a ilvl req and i get ppl with ilvls ranging form 384-397 i draw the line at anything below 380 tho

[Deleted]

I usually do 2-3 Pug grps a week anything from 3-6 HC, ive found the best tool I have to determine if someone is good or not is Epeen Bot, if you havent heard of it yet check it out here: raidbots.com/epeenbot/eu/silvermoon/frósticle/, it runs off of world of logs so if the person doesnt have logs its not any use but if they do you can tell if they are any good compared to the rest of there specific spec. Ive had some people /w me with 8/8 hc on main but there logs on the 400+ ilvl alt are in the bottom 10% for their class and this is a great tool to find out players like that.

Also conversely for those people trying to get into groups that know they are good players, make sure u get a log or 2 then you can link the raid leader this site and they will know you can play your class.

Thought i'd share since no mention of this site yet.

[Deleted]

If someone doesn't have the achievement then I might just talk with him a bit and see how far he has been and if he has seen videos of the bosses he hasn't done. It's not a job application but it's like a job interview. Go ahead and invite everyone who just whispers "inv" and you will see that most of them will have no idea, crap gear and maybe not even at maximum level. I just want to make sure that they are not complete idiots. Hell, I rejected people who had the achievement because they were assholes.

As leaks said, if you can't get into a group then just form your own.