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  1. #561
    Ok, at this point I have to admit that you might be trolling. If you are, well done. If not... wow.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    They still had a monopoly on the glyph market and on the ink market because they are the sole producers, so no I'm not wrong unless you turn a blind eye to anything but the faults of Enchanting. Enchanting has no restrictions? Enchanting has the exact same restrictions plus one. They can farm the items themselves, others can farm them for them, or they can by the items from the Auction House in order to disenchant.
    You are completely ignoring what I said. I will try to spell this out later.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Enchanting still has all of the downsides of not being a gathering professions but there is no gathering profession required for it. Disenchanting isn't a gathering profession any more then Milling, Prospecting, Smelting, or Sewing is.
    Disenchanting isn't a gathering profession. It's the advantages of a gathering profession rolled into a crafting profession. I'm glad we agree here, you've actually gotten something right.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So because there isn't a 100% drop rate it can't be farmed? That is stupid logic. Plenty of things in the game are farmed that don't have a 100% drop rate. Also if you know what items have a chance at dropping what materials it is very easy to predict what you will get from disenchanting something. So you can get what you need on the spot.
    That's not what I said. I said that we can't hand a couple of greens to an enchanter and say "I need this enchant", because there's no guarantee that the disenchanting will result in the correct materials, and no guarantee that the enchanter will provide the disenchantment for free.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    And there is every guarantee an enchanter will perform it for free on the spot if you are in the group with them. But do you expect a scribe to mill for free? A Jeweler to prospect for free? A tailor to sew for free? A miner to smelt for free? There is not guarantee they won't ask for a tip. Yet I don't see you asking to get a share of those.
    No, there's no guarantee. There was nothing forcing an enchanter to do this until the disenchant button, and on my server (and others) enchanters would routinely either decline to do it or would charge a fee for it. You are wrong. The others are different, because, as I've said, the other crafting professions don't have to rely on others or a second profession to get their materials. They don't have a monopoly on the production of their goods from beginning to end like Enchanting does. You keep denying this fact through weird arguments that make no sense, which I will make one last attempt to make you understand below. Tailoring is the only other exception to this, and it differs from enchanting in the fact that everyone gets cloth, and no one has to have a profession or even a tailor in their group to get it.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    So scribes don't have a monopoly over inks? Who else can obtain and sell inks? Enchanters need something to get items as well but it isn't a profession. They need to kill a mob that has a chance at dropping an item. Which anyone can do so there isn't an enchanting gathering profession because everyone can gather for enchanters.
    This is ridiculous. Ok, I will make one last attempt to make you understand this, using very simple statements. If you can't agree to the FACTS that I am going to list now, there is no point in continuing this conversation, because you are either incapable of understanding or incapable of having an intellectually honest, logical conversation about it. Let's start with the very basics, ok?

    Fact number 1: Inscription requires Herbalism in order to level up and make glyphs.
    Fact number 2: Blacksmithing require Mining in order to level up and make items.
    Fact number 3: Alchemy requires Herbalism in order to level up and make potions, elixirs and flasks.
    Fact number 4: Leatherworking requires skinning in order to level up and make items.
    Fact number 5: Engineering requires Mining (and other professions) in order to level up and make items.
    Fact number 6: Jewelcrafting requires Mining in order to level up and cut gems.
    Fact number 7: Tailoring DOES NOT require any other profession to level up and make items. This one is arguable, because a majority of the higher level patterns actually require Enchanting materials to make... so this one could be debated.
    Fact number 8: Enchanting DOES NOT require any other profession to level up and make items.

    Are you going to continue to deny any of these facts?

  2. #562
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    That's not what I said. I said that we can't hand a couple of greens to an enchanter and say "I need this enchant", because there's no guarantee that the disenchanting will result in the correct materials, and no guarantee that the enchanter will provide the disenchantment for free.
    You can do that because certain types of items have a higher chance to produce a certain type of mat. But people did this all the time for enchanting and do it all the time for jewel crafting. The hand the jeweler a stack of ore in order to get X gem so they can get it cut. There is no guarantee that anyone will provide their trade skill for free so it is an irrelevant requirement.


    They don't have a monopoly on the production of their goods from beginning to end like Enchanting does. You keep denying this fact through weird arguments that make no sense, which I will make one last attempt to make you understand below. Tailoring is the only other exception to this, and it differs from enchanting in the fact that everyone gets cloth, and no one has to have a profession or even a tailor in their group to get it.
    Again someone with a double standard. Tailor and Enchanting are exact alike yet you treat them differently. Everyone has a chance at looting weapons and armor just like they have a chance at looting cloth. No one has to have an enchanter in their group to get weapons or armor to drop. You need an enchanter to get dusts shards and crystals. Just like you need a Tailor to get bolts, a Jeweler to get gems, a scribe to gems, and a miner to get bars.



    Quote Originally Posted by FalinMor View Post
    Are you going to continue to deny any of these facts?
    I have never said anything opposite of that. However just because there is no profession doesn't change a thing for Tailoring and Enchanting. Why? Because anyone in the game can gather for those professions and people with those professions have to compete against every one else for cloth (tailoring) and Items (Enchanting). They are worse off then if they had an actual profession tied to them.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  3. #563
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by FalinMor View Post
    Ok, at this point I have to admit that you might be trolling. If you are, well done. If not... wow.



    You are completely ignoring what I said. I will try to spell this out later.



    Disenchanting isn't a gathering profession. It's the advantages of a gathering profession rolled into a crafting profession. I'm glad we agree here, you've actually gotten something right.



    That's not what I said. I said that we can't hand a couple of greens to an enchanter and say "I need this enchant", because there's no guarantee that the disenchanting will result in the correct materials, and no guarantee that the enchanter will provide the disenchantment for free.



    No, there's no guarantee. There was nothing forcing an enchanter to do this until the disenchant button, and on my server (and others) enchanters would routinely either decline to do it or would charge a fee for it. You are wrong. The others are different, because, as I've said, the other crafting professions don't have to rely on others or a second profession to get their materials. They don't have a monopoly on the production of their goods from beginning to end like Enchanting does. You keep denying this fact through weird arguments that make no sense, which I will make one last attempt to make you understand below. Tailoring is the only other exception to this, and it differs from enchanting in the fact that everyone gets cloth, and no one has to have a profession or even a tailor in their group to get it.



    This is ridiculous. Ok, I will make one last attempt to make you understand this, using very simple statements. If you can't agree to the FACTS that I am going to list now, there is no point in continuing this conversation, because you are either incapable of understanding or incapable of having an intellectually honest, logical conversation about it. Let's start with the very basics, ok?

    Fact number 1: Inscription requires Herbalism in order to level up and make glyphs.
    Fact number 2: Blacksmithing require Mining in order to level up and make items.
    Fact number 3: Alchemy requires Herbalism in order to level up and make potions, elixirs and flasks.
    Fact number 4: Leatherworking requires skinning in order to level up and make items.
    Fact number 5: Engineering requires Mining (and other professions) in order to level up and make items.
    Fact number 6: Jewelcrafting requires Mining in order to level up and cut gems.
    Fact number 7: Tailoring DOES NOT require any other profession to level up and make items. This one is arguable, because a majority of the higher level patterns actually require Enchanting materials to make... so this one could be debated.
    Fact number 8: Enchanting DOES NOT require any other profession to level up and make items.

    Are you going to continue to deny any of these facts?
    About Tailoring; You're right that it's arguable. Initially I thought there was a CD on creating Dreamcloth but I was corrected and as such that's no longer a viable excuse for how their profession works. Not only do tailors not need a gathering professions, they also have a higher chance at looting cloth or looting more of it than non tailors.

    That said, I'll still argue that in the long run, Enchanting is way more profitable than Tailoring gold wise. I make about 1500g per day just putting up a Landslide enchant. I could make even more, if I could be bothered farming the AH for more mats or grind them myself. So when looking at the overall benefit to both professions, I still think that Enchanting comes out as the winner.

    Which is why, I don't really mind the DE button. It's so much easier with that button. And again, if you don't want to share, you should go with a guild group or a group of friends. That way at least the mats would be kept within a smaller circle of people you know and not be "handed out" to random people. And even with the DE button, I don't really think Enchanters are losing that much gold. Before the DE button, you'd just get a friend with Enchanting to DE all your crap for you for free. And what is the big difference between the greed and the DE button, when everyone can just have a friend or guildie DE the stuff for them anyways?

    The only thing that DE button does, is making it easier on everyone imo. And the trade off is, that Enchanters don't need a gathering profession to DE. Do you realize how annoying it is to level LW without Skinning? I have to pay for all the mats come MoP, since Skinning isn't really the ideal raiding profession and no, I didn't bother levelling an alt to get Skinning. My alts have different professions that requires either Herbalism or Mining and I cbf having one alt with only gathering professions tbh.

    Again, I really don't think Enchanters are the ones to be complaining about, how their profession works.

  4. #564
    Love how 99% of replies are people saying don't be selfish.

    I don't see any of those miners, skinners or herbers stopping everyone at the end of the dungeon and going "Ok guys, lets share out these materials".

    Nope, never seen that.

  5. #565
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Nekovivie View Post
    Love how 99% of replies are people saying don't be selfish.

    I don't see any of those miners, skinners or herbers stopping everyone at the end of the dungeon and going "Ok guys, lets share out these materials".

    Nope, never seen that.
    Yeah .

    Disenchant options should be avaible only to enchanters.. but thats quite a known issue that almost every fair player agree with.

    The ones who dont .. are the selfish lazy ones .

    But blizz doesnt have plans to change it so .. i guess we should just stuck with it .. or need on everything and disenchant by yourself .. ihihih .

  6. #566
    I honestly don't have a problem with the DE button, before it was implemented I would spend a lot of time DE'ing players loot. I don't get why the other professions that have gathering components attached to them are free from such biases though. Considering that I don't have a skinner, miner or herbalist between my characters, I would love to be able to mooch off those professions during dungeon runs.

    Though; if Blizzards intent became to share all professions in such a matter, I see no reason why they should stand by this archaic design choice. Let every player learn all gathering professions without losing crafting ones. I've actually been an advocate of that for some time, since the gathering professions tend to have really stupid profession buffs. Get rid of the buffs, have them not take profession slots, and everyone would be happy.

  7. #567
    Quote Originally Posted by Justforthis123 View Post
    Yeah .

    Disenchant options should be avaible only to enchanters.. but thats quite a known issue that almost every fair player agree with.

    The ones who dont .. are the selfish lazy ones .

    But blizz doesnt have plans to change it so .. i guess we should just stuck with it .. or need on everything and disenchant by yourself .. ihihih .
    I am an enchanter and dont agree with you. I am also very rich from enchanting as I have said before. The Enchanters who want the D/E button removed are the ones who dont understand how you use there profession.

  8. #568
    The DE button is just a time saver for players and doesn't hurt the enchanter in the group in any way shape or form, nor does it decrease the mats the enchanter wins, as if things weren't being DE rolled, they would be greed rolled. The benefit is that it saves the trouble of having to roll off for shards at the end of a run, and eliminates the likelihood in LFD that an enchanter would just take all the shards from gear dropped by bosses a whole group put the effort in to killing. I have enchanters and I think that those complaining about this just need to chill out.

    All that said, I would support a 20% chance for enchanters to duplicate the enchanting mats from any DE in LFR or LFD for their own use. My chanter DE's a Maelstrom Crystal for player x, I have a 20% chance to also receive a crystal.

  9. #569
    Blademaster Rankalee's Avatar
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    I believe the main reason we're "forced" to share in a party situation, is because everyone in the group had a part in killing whatever creature it was that dropped the item. Regardless of if they clicked greed and won or disenchant and won makes no difference.

  10. #570
    The disenchant button is for everyone. Deal with it.

    I don't mind people making use of my disenchanting skills in raids/dungeons. The person was going to win it anyway, so if I can give the person enchanting materials instead of vendor fodder if he/she wants, then I'm happy to help.

    Don't be so goddam selfish.

    Edit:

    Quote Originally Posted by Nekovivie View Post
    Love how 99% of replies are people saying don't be selfish.

    I don't see any of those miners, skinners or herbers stopping everyone at the end of the dungeon and going "Ok guys, lets share out these materials".

    Nope, never seen that.
    I share those on mine, in applicable dungeons, and when the people with me want.

    Care to try again, dear?
    Last edited by BatteredRose; 2012-07-23 at 10:45 PM.

  11. #571
    Quote Originally Posted by Nekovivie View Post
    I don't see any of those miners, skinners or herbers stopping everyone at the end of the dungeon and going "Ok guys, lets share out these materials".
    There's no more herb or mine nodes in new instances.

    Pointless thread is pointless.

  12. #572
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TOM_RUS View Post
    There's no more herb or mine nodes in new instances.
    http://www.wowhead.com/spell=74517#m...npc:0-2+8-11+1 indicates otherwise.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  13. #573
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by frengo123 View Post
    Enchanting isn't the best raiding ability,
    Say what? I dare you to raid without any enchants on your gear. C'mon, I double dare you

  14. #574
    Stood in the Fire Jalfrezi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dethox View Post
    Say what? I dare you to raid without any enchants on your gear. C'mon, I double dare you
    I dare you to raid without gems, flasks, glyphs. Not sure of your point.

  15. #575
    Quote Originally Posted by Saffa View Post
    Yes, after all to do the disenchant they have to ...... wait.... they have to do Nothing. Zilch. Nada. Give them a roll bonus that equals what they had to do for the item to be disenchanted. A big, fat, round 0.

    I have 2 max enchanters btw, 1 on each account and have never quite seen why enchanters weep and wail over this
    You mean, like rogues unlocking boxes? Or were you referring to the tens of thousands of golds used to level enchanting to Maxed to be able to disenchant those cata epics into maelstrom crystals? What? Did you think dusts and shards just form on their own? How many lock boxes do rogues (for example) have to destroy to gain levels to be able to unlock higher level lock boxes. OH RIGHT... NONE!!!

    So then what happens? These items go in the AH for many times the vendor value of the item disenchanted, to be purchased by enchanters or people looking for enchants, the lions share going to the person that did S*A to level enchanting, while the enchanter gets a "tip". And God forbid the enchanter charge a FEE!!!!! It is paramount to being a pedophile to ask an actual fee for your profession! Try that at a restaurant, order a meal, and just tip the waiter... see where that lands you.

  16. #576
    Hey, they should have an option so that when a lockbox drops and a rogue is in the group, you can click "Unlock" to get the item unlocked!

    Now rogues too can lose a chance to make money opening lockboxes!

  17. #577
    I never understood why anyone cried over this. How do enchanters lose any chance to make money? Enchanting mats and scrolls still sell for ridiculous amounts on the AH (at least on my server). Most of the random ones in /trade still get tips for doing enchants too.

    Before that DE button was implemented, the "fair" way to DE group loot was for the enchanter to roll Need on it (assuming nobody else wanted it) then DE it, then highest /roll gets the shard. The DE button just made that whole process a lot simpler. Back then, enchanters who rolled need on stuff just to shard it but then kept the shards for themselves were considered ninjas and dealt with harshly.
    Last edited by Ciddy; 2012-07-27 at 12:20 AM.

  18. #578

  19. #579
    My only issue and what I do find contrary to the enchanting mats policy is those freaking BoP orbs for most of every xpac. If everyone worked to get the drop, then why do they screw non-crafters from getting that material? We're not on equal ground here, enchanters materials get distributed to the group, but crafting orbs do not.

    Anyone know what the situation for whatever the new orb equivalent will be for MoP? Are they going to be BoP / only rollable by crafters at launch again?

  20. #580
    I haven't read half the posts, but I will say I wish we at least had the option of allowing it's use or not, if I wanna let other's use my hard earned profession points to disenchant there drops I'll turn it on, if I feel like being a selfish prick and disenchanting stuff only for myself I'll turn it off... the point is I should have that choice, it was my money, my time, and my resources that went into the ability to disenchant, why should everyone else get to use it just because they group with me.

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