GW2 PvP versus Replayability: Nothing to farm

[Korgoth]

If I keep playing it, it will be for the same reason I have kept playing Team Fortress 2 all these years, I find it fun. I don't need a gear grind to have fun in a game; I don't need character progression in PvP to have fun in a game, I don't need it to be like WoW to justify playing it; especially since I don't have to justify a monthly payment for it.

[Lillpapps]

So let me get this straight, everyone has all the 6 best items for their hero and start at level 25 every game? Because that would be the equivalent to GW2 PvP.

And that would not be fun/good at all, but maybe with a GW2 mentality it would. All that would happen is that everyone goes together from minute 0, and the ones winning team fights wins the game. It would clearly be super balanced, because now it is so unfair that heroes like Anti Mage gets so good with gear, so unfair. No stupid level farming or gold farming, great!

Thanks for proving my point.

No it wouldnt even be remotely close. You are talking about gameplay. Not progression. You cant compare gameplay to progression. You dont get any permanent gear upgrades when you play dota. You dont get lvl 25 every time you start a game just as you dont get all capture point in conquest in GW2.

Thanks for proving that you dont have a point and just troll.
Please close this thread. Nothing productive can come from it and its already 3 pages and going in circles.

[Korgoth]

At a high-level I get what you mean on the farming, but the sad truth is wow doesn't really have any purpose to farming anymore. Back in vanilla and BC there was a reason to farm because you could get some bis gear with a lot of hard work farming. In those days it was a big deal to see people in all purple gear. But farming now is so ridiculously easy that everyone farms and everyone has the same gear. It's worse even than that, because everyone has the same gear on like 5-6+ toons. Look around, everyone pvp'ing has 4.5k+ res...everyone has at least 390+ pve gear from DS. Farming in wow 4.0+ doesn't really make you have better gear than other players. It was true when farming was hard because it was difficult enough that not everyone did it. But when you can cap weekly cp or vp in like 2 hours, instead of farming to have better gear it has become just being busy work to keep par with everyone else.

It's kind of like going to a car race, taking a corvette thinking "I'm gonna kick everyone's ***"...and you get there and everyone at the race has a corvette too. GW2 just skips the mindless work and the false challenge/reward of earning the corvette and gives everyone the same car to start.

Pssh they might have a Corvette, but I have the ZO6 and they have the base model. Don't kid yourself gear still makes a huge difference.

[Pickwickman]

I think the PVP action and mode from GW2 could actually adress a wide variety of gamers.

But firstly, everything has to be balanced to the max; or people won't play it like the given examples (CS and LoL). Those games are VERY tightly balanced, that's why it's so fun to play them, because it shows YOUR skill.

And secondly, there is a chance that it will flop, badly. Look at Warhammer Online, they tried to do it to. They still are running, but seeing the expectation that is created around GW2 it could mean a huge marketing flop; ending in shareholders becoming discontent. But maybe the community IS ready for such a PVP game, you can never be certain.

[barackopala]

If I keep playing it, it will be for the same reason I have kept playing Team Fortress 2 all these years, I find it fun. I don't need a gear grind to have fun in a game; I don't need character progression in PvP to have fun in a game, I don't need it to be like WoW to justify playing it; especially since I don't have to justify a monthly payment for it.

This is what makes me feel too, I'm not too thrilled by the PvP but I can get into the whole mental process of playing the game for the PvP part of it.
The only limit to you (NOT YOUR CHARACTER) is YOUR skill not your character gear, hell, even when you play MOBA's (which, could translate quite nicely to the sPvP model, plus, in that way it could get to e-sports faster) you're not commiting all your lifetime on getting better, you just play whenever you want, if you want to get better then TRAIN (yup, TRAIN, don't FARM, you can play endless hours without any success in getting better, when playing on a Gear threadmill game you mostly don't train, just farm)

[PenguinChan]

If the PvP is fun, it doesn't matter if you have very little gear progression. This is known and true, while not everyone's choice of play. I do hope this model trumps the PvP in WoW, and RIFT (Amongst other MMO's) so the badly designed PvP gear grind will be reduced or removed.

[Pickwickman]

If I keep playing it, it will be for the same reason I have kept playing Team Fortress 2 all these years, I find it fun. I don't need a gear grind to have fun in a game; I don't need character progression in PvP to have fun in a game, I don't need it to be like WoW to justify playing it; especially since I don't have to justify a monthly payment for it.

But the sad part is that that's exactly the thing. The GW-community and producers have made it seem like a WoW beater, and by doing so they expect the players with the WoW mentality to hop over and play their game. And if it deviates that much from the WoW formula; those players won't play the game. That's intrinsically all this discussion is about as far as I have seen.

[barackopala]

But the sad part is that that's exactly the thing. The GW-community and producers have made it seem like a WoW beater, and by doing so they expect the players with the WoW mentality to hop over and play their game. And if it deviates that much from the WoW formula; those players won't play the game. That's intrinsically all this discussion is about as far as I have seen.

This is definately an issue, it took me quite a while to change my mentality from a WoW standpoint to a e-sport/moba point of view (getting the competitive PvP on sPvP), when you get to realize that they might have more common stuff than you'd think so then GW2 could be looked as a totally different game and get PvP on a totally different point from PvE.

[Lillpapps]

But the sad part is that that's exactly the thing. The GW-community and producers have made it seem like a WoW beater, and by doing so they expect the players with the WoW mentality to hop over and play their game. And if it deviates that much from the WoW formula; those players won't play the game. That's intrinsically all this discussion is about as far as I have seen.

And ArenaNet will laugh all the way to the bank at all the stupid people that bought a box of a game they knew about beforehand and could have figured out that they wouldnt like.

[barackopala]

And ArenaNet will laugh all the way to the bank at all the stupid people that bought a box of a game they knew about beforehand and could have figured out that they wouldnt like.

Turn your flamethrower off you little trolly :3.

[Lillpapps]

Turn your flamethrower off you little trolly :3.

Why would I troll? It just the truth. ArenaNet have already said that they have made the game they wanted to make. They wont change their game design just because people whine. If people want to buy their game they are happy. If they dont they dont care and if people buy their game even though they dont like the game design. Then they will just laugh.

[Korgoth]

And ArenaNet will laugh all the way to the bank at all the stupid people that bought a box of a game they knew about beforehand and could have figured out that they wouldnt like.

That's exactly what happened to me with SWTOR, but if I get burned by GW2 I won't feel as bad since I can still play GW2 in the future without paying again.

[Pickwickman]

This is definately an issue, it took me quite a while to change my mentality from a WoW standpoint to a e-sport/moba point of view (getting the competitive PvP on sPvP), when you get to realize that they might have more common stuff than you'd think so then GW2 could be looked as a totally different game and get PvP on a totally different point from PvE.

Completely agree with you. Instead of the "omfg we're going to beat WoW" thought, they went with the "Guys look, this is a MMO-PVP game which has large scale server vs server BG's" they wouldn't have gotten so much flak, and even more people would have liked the game.

I like how the game looks like, and can't wait to try it out, the server vs server vs server thing makes me very damn interested in the game, and is something that is relatively untouched by most games.

blablabla

Look, I know where you're coming from; and I know they will like their box-office sales. But when push comes to stove if their game doesn't keep most of its buyers the gamers themselves will be dissappointed. And that will lead to less people buying their next content / Arenanet purchases. The game is build upon being able to buy shit from Arenanet, the payment that you pay at the start to play the game is nice extra sidecash, but they expect the average user to pay way more on novelty shit from their market.

[barackopala]

Every company does say "this game is going to change the world", remember resident evil movies? ubber hype, everyone does it, welcome to capitalism, if it sells and everyone likes it then it's great! if it sells and some people like it it's okay too, you're overstating the fact making the game look like it's a piece of crap that give a huge letdown to EVERYONE, sadly it seems your mentality is quite simplistic, plus ANet can give you back your money if you pre-order, therefor is your problem if you don't like it, ANet doesn't even need to change the game just for you.

[Beat5beat]

This is such an interesting question, and I'm sure one developers regularly weigh the pros and cons of. Games can certainly be fun without a gear grind. But to completely disregard the gear grind as not fun I think is rather short sighted as well. I think in some ways WoW uses the gear grind to make an otherwise stale PvP combat system more fun and engaging. If you remove the progression system from a game, then your game mechanics and balance HAVE to be much better than otherwise in order to still be fun. The other thing to consider is that from the very beginning RPG's have been about making yourself more powerful, so a lot of people that play RPG's especially enjoy that aspect of 'fun', and perhaps that is why they gravitate towards RPG's. Guild Wars 2 removing a meaningful progression system is I think targeting a difference audience than typically plays RPG games. Anyway, sorry this is sort of a disorganized paragraph, I just threw this together as I was thinking about it.

Personally I enjoy both Balanced engaging PVP without progression systems (Starcraft, Counterstrike, Dota etc) As well as enjoying the gear grind. I don't know how fun the PVP will be in an MMO that has no gear grind. I also think it seems like a waste of development hours to create such a grand environment that an MMO requires and sell yourself short on the progression side. I don't know a ton about Guild Wars 2 as I have not played any of the betas, so I will refrain from commenting too much regarding it. However from the videos of the combat I have seen I don't think the combat seems particularly engaging enough that they can successfully forgo a progression system.

P.S. COD sucks, always has sucked and always will suck.

[Ashnazg]

Structured pvp in gw2 is rather dull after a while.

For me, it got dull about half way through BWE1. WvWvW is a little more tolerable since it has a larger variety of things to do.

I wonder why some people have thousands of hours played of Counter-Strike. It cant be because they find it fun right? It has to be because they get better gear.... ooh wait.

You can't compare CS and GW2. FPS games innately have better pvp than MMORPGs, its just the nature of the beast. GW2 tries to imitate an FPS environment with no gear grind, but it'll never reach the level of FPS pvp because the skill-cap in MMORPGs is set too low. Whether GW2 pvp model will be ultimately satisfying enough to keep people playing it, time will show.

[barackopala]

This is such an interesting question, and I'm sure one developers regularly weigh the pros and cons of. Games can certainly be fun without a gear grind. But to completely disregard the gear grind as not fun I think is rather short sighted as well. I think in some ways WoW uses the gear grind to make an otherwise stale PvP combat system more fun and engaging. If you remove the progression system from a game, then your game mechanics and balance HAVE to be much better than otherwise in order to still be fun. The other thing to consider is that from the very beginning RPG's have been about making yourself more powerful, so a lot of people that play RPG's especially enjoy that aspect of 'fun', and perhaps that is why they gravitate towards RPG's. Guild Wars 2 removing a meaningful progression system is I think targeting a difference audience than typically plays RPG games. Anyway, sorry this is sort of a disorganized paragraph, I just threw this together as I was thinking about it.

Personally I enjoy both Balanced engaging PVP without progression systems (Starcraft, Counterstrike, Dota etc) As well as enjoying the gear grind. I don't know how fun the PVP will be in an MMO that has no gear grind. I also think it seems like a waste of development hours to create such a grand environment that an MMO requires and sell yourself short on the progression side. I don't know a ton about Guild Wars 2 as I have not played any of the betas, so I will refrain from commenting too much regarding it. However from the videos of the combat I have seen I don't think the combat seems particularly engaging enough that they can successfully forgo a progression system.

P.S. COD sucks, always has sucked and always will suck.

Well you say you like competitive games with no progression? get that mentality from those kind of games into sPvP and you'll end up having a nice pvp enviroment where skill cap is high.

[Merendel]

This is what I was wondering about, if you get better gear the more you PvP, then it can get quite fun. But do you? And how long will it take?

There is only 1 stat you can grind for in sPVP. That stat is called "Bling". Bling does not appear in the tooltip butt is visible none the less as beter and cooler looking skins. now while bling wont help you win any PVP matches you can use it to show off how cool you are and how much time you've spent.

It would go agianst the design of this game to give you better and better stats for playing longer. The playing field is ment to be equal and you cant have that if some percentage of the population has some arbitrary non skill based advantage over the rest of the population. The gear you get in sPvP is as strong as it is going to get, everybody starts off on an even field with the same gear. What you grind for is the better looking equipment not the stronger equipment.

[deathtakes]

I don't really think GW2 is aimed at the same players that play WoW. If it is, then something is amiss.

Myself, I will buy it and give it a go, just to check it out and possibly play with friends. I don't think I'll be getting into it heavily though, it doesn't seem deep enough to have amazing holding power. But then again, the F2P model makes that point irrelevant to me as a customer.

Thank **** for that.

@OP: Professional athletes and E-sporters alike play their respective sport/game because they love it and/or want to be the best. Not because of the rewards their sponsors give them. If that is why they do it they will NEVER be as good as someone that does it out of love.

Someone mentioned earlier that a lot of people will grind and grind to get the best gear and then stop playing shortly there after. If you're not one of those people and you compete against others to get as far up the latter as possible good for you. However, consider this, in WOW you grind to get the best gear each season just to compete where as in GW2 you and your foes are made equal so you can start competing right off the bat, you don't even need to level a character. It seems to me GW 2 is doing serious PVPers a favor and cutting out the middle man altogether.

[Darkfriend]

What reasons could you possibly want other than to get better and have fun? Isn't fun what playing games is all about?

Because many people enjoy making and setting goals. Its why people consider raiding fun, PVP fun, leveling fun, etc. I play games to progress, to get better. Even games like LOL, which has no real "progression" out side of ranked (which I don't play) I play to improve. A game that has no ability to progress in is simply not fun.

I want a goal to set and meet, preferably one that helps me become stronger. Whether that is gear to grind for, or levels, or whatever. If I started a game, with max levels, max everything, and best gear, I'd become bored really quick.

The person above me is flat out wrong. For one, he presents no evidence, simply stating "someone who loves something will do better than someone who doesn't and just plays for the money". Patently false. Many people are exceptional at tasks, games, arts, etc who despise what they do. Many are better than others.

Heck, I know people who would quit what they were doing, even if they loved it, to get a better job, or if the job they love didn't pay anything.