[Ret] Judgment?

[thegoodrogue]

Stupid change against rogues, ranged, and almost EVERY PvE encounter (depending on strat). Judgement feels like even more of a "plain" spell, going from "UNLEASHING THE POWER OF YOUR SEAL" to a combo point generator that does pretty much nothing.

O well, still got a few months before release, and I can't post on Blizz forums so my opinion is null.

[JayJay09]

---------- Post added 2012-07-25 at 09:49 AM ----------

The whole point of haste was that it generates more resources for DPS, rather than just be a passive (and usually minor) DPS increase. That also opens it up as a viable means of attack (like a DK using Necrotic Strike). It adds depth to the game.

You share a very romantic point of view. But that doesn't work for WoW's pvp. If a ret is expected to just eat the 30% slower cds, then there is something seriously wrong. And then you have to balance a scenario where ret has -30% haste and where he does not (because luckily not every class can increase casttime).

This creates problems that could have easily been remedied. And in PvP as ret there is no depth if you can't slow, eat every cc, have no gap closer etc.. That's how it is on live. You can't tell me that these issues lead to more depth. And in MoP we may slow but our gap closing mechanic gets countered by an unskilled and just thrown in silence. If you at least had to time your counterspells.. But it's completely depending on the mage/dk/etc if he wants to cs now or later.. He has the choice. We never have a choice because all we get is countered in every regard. We have to react on the counter and get then countered again.. Frostnova, -> HoF, Spellsteal, Water Ele nova, -> cleanse, deepfreeze, -> insignia, counterspell, frostnova, shatter, -> death. The only time the mage has to react is if we pop wings or put repentance on him (blinking if stunned by HoJ or trinketing it shall be ignored)... He spellsteals wings and now has a ridiculously great advantage over us. No matter what a ret does, the gros of it gets countered and recountered. The only reason why rets were seen in cata was because of that bullcrap selfless healer shit and the dmg if wings don't get dispelled. The rest of the class is a complete joke and lacks viability in every regard.

-30% haste will definitely not increase the depth of the game, since you lack the abilities to counter stuff like that.. Depth is only created if you can react on something. That keeps you on guard. Just eating something is depressing and well.. very bad design. The game's pvp is built around the most annoying abilities one can think of. This has to stop if this game ever wants to become slightly close to the sentence "it's kind of balanced". Some classes have a way too severe impact on others and that is called imbalance.

[Malthanis]

O well, still got a few months before release, and I can't post on Blizz forums so my opinion is null.

I wouldn't say your opinion is null. You can still post here, and there are people that may believe you have a point, and carry that information on to the official forums.

Stupid change against rogues, ranged, and almost EVERY PvE encounter (depending on strat). Judgement feels like even more of a "plain" spell, going from "UNLEASHING THE POWER OF YOUR SEAL" to a combo point generator that does pretty much nothing.

It really hasn't been an "unleashing" of a seal since they took away seal-based debuffs (which I believe was when Judgment consumed your seal). Since Judgment damage is no longer dependent on what seal you're using, I'm not sure why it's required to actually use the spell (although you should never be in a state where you don't have a seal up, since they're effectively stance mechanics now). It now is a ranged Holy Power generator, that can be augmented with other effects.

[JayJay09]

Sorry to splice up your post, but I felt I needed to to illustrate a point. The underlined bits are the issue at hand: examples need to be provided. Logs need to be looked at. The last bit about arena knowledge, specifically: how many people who play this game have that knowledge? Without numbers and examples, you can't adequately express why this is an issue to people that don't have the same experience.

Like I said, even if it's blatantly obvious to you, you still need the examples to support your point.

I know exactly what you mean. But I would have a hard time to collect the data you demand to prove a point that should be obvious to everyone who thinks just a little bit about it. And I cannot make up for people's lack of PvP knowledge. Sometimes discussions are just not meant for everyone. I think I am entitled to express my experiences and thus give an example of what might happen to the class if nothing gets changed.

If people do not understand what I mean then they probably are not interested in 2k+ arena matches. The experience you get there is an experience that you have to make for yourself. It's very hard to describe it because people miss the thrill, the rage, the mere desperation deep within a player who suffers through an intense arena match.

It just must suffice if I say that facing a dk means your whole mechanic gets crippled and you might lose the touch to it since you cannot solely depend on your feelings anymore but must calculate the friggin hard debuff of -30% haste. A single class can destroy the whole fluidness of another one by just doing what it always does in pvp. Spam NS.. And that won't stop in MoP.

CDs of abilities must not be negatively influenced by casttime decreasing effects. That just bullshit and screws up a whole mechanic, the whole itemization. Casttime is casttime. A reduced cd is not actually a cast with casttime.. The whole thing is absurd.

[Malthanis]

You share a very romantic point of view. But that doesn't work for WoW's pvp. If a ret is expected to just eat the 30% slower cds, then there is something seriously wrong. And then you have to balance a scenario where ret has -30% haste and where he does not (because luckily not every class can increase casttime).

I'll have to check it on the beta with a DK friend of mine, but Necrotic Strike is now reading a 25% casting speed reduction for 10 seconds (or as long as the debuff is on you, since it can be removed by healing through it). This is still a viable way to put pressure on an opponent, and one that your team would have to plan for and around. Planning would be necessary against any opposing composition, I would think.

This creates problems that could have easily been remedied. And in PvP as ret there is no depth if you can't slow, eat every cc, have no gap closer etc.. That's how it is on live. You can't tell me that these issues lead to more depth. And in MoP we may slow but our gap closing mechanic gets countered by an unskilled and just thrown in silence. If you at least had to time your counterspells.. But it's completely depending on the mage/dk/etc if he wants to cs now or later.. He has the choice. We never have a choice because all we get is countered in every regard. We have to react on the counter and get then countered again.. Frostnova, -> HoF, Spellsteal, Water Ele nova, -> cleanse, deepfreeze, -> insignia, counterspell, frostnova, shatter, -> death. The only time the mage has to react is if we pop wings or put repentance on him (blinking if stunned by HoJ or trinketing it shall be ignored)... He spellsteals wings and now has a ridiculously great advantage over us. No matter what a ret does, the gros of it gets countered and recountered. The only reason why rets were seen in cata was because of that bullcrap selfless healer shit and the dmg if wings don't get dispelled. The rest of the class is a complete joke and lacks viability in every regard.

Luckily, in Mists, AW is no longer dispellable. You're also using the example of "you vs. Frost Mage", which is a logical strawman. They have an exceedingly high number of snares, it's true. But they're using them all on you, and if they're doing that, what about your other team member(s)? Sure they can lock you down, but only if they focus you. You also didn't mention Divine Shield, and while it's one of those one-hit wonder abilities, it's still in our toolkit.

-30% haste will definitely not increase the depth of the game, since you lack the abilities to counter stuff like that.. Depth is only created if you can react on something. That keeps you on guard. Just eating something is depressing and well.. very bad design. The game's pvp is built around the most annoying abilities one can think of. This has to stop if this game ever wants to become slightly close to the sentence "it's kind of balanced". Some classes have a way too severe impact on others and that is called imbalance.

The thing is, paladins are uniquely able to actively counter the Necrotic Strike debuff, specifically because we can heal ourselves along with the healer.

[Deleted]

@Malthanis

He's not saying people are wrong, and he's certainly not pulling the "Blizzard is right because Blizzard!" attitude. He's saying that the devs are far more likely to take feedback that is calm and logical, rather than raging tirades (which is why he provided the soup stall example).

Well I'm not talking about the single post where he talks about how devs take feedback but all the other ones where he actually pulls that attitude.
I don't see how condescendly saying to Requital ''The Devs don't just change things around for the sake of doing so'' does not relate to the ''Blizzard is right attitude''.And this is just 1 example.

Then why are they wrong? Numbers, logs, logical arguments, at least some of these are necessary to back up claims that this change will cause problems. Even if it seems blatantly obvious to you, it may not seem that way to others, and having proof adds legitimacy to your claims.

I must repeat I never voiced my opinion on judgement.I never said this change was right and wrong,the only purpose of my post was to stop this fallacy madness of judging people wrong because they don't follow Blizzard blindly.

[Palatinus]

Two steps forward, one step back. I keep telling you guys but none of you want to accept it....

I'm sure after the pve tier with that one boss we need judgement to proc censure, they will put it back in. That or it's planned for next expansion, I'm sure they'll do better next expansion, they've learnt a lot now.

[Malthanis]

Well I'm not talking about the single post where he talks about how devs take feedback but all the other ones where he actually pulls that attitude.
I don't see how condescendly saying to Requital ''The Devs don't just change things around for the sake of doing so'' does not relate to the ''Blizzard is right attitude''.And this is just 1 example.

I honestly didn't see any condescension there, and the devs don't make changes just for the sake of doing so. No developer of a successful, ongoing project will ever say to themselves "Hmm, I haven't worked on this part for a long time, let's tweak it a bit and add/change functionality". They base decisions like that on observations and collected data. Those observations and collected data may be right, wrong, or so far off-base as to be in a completely different universe, but that's what happens.

I must repeat I never voiced my opinion on judgement.I never said this change was right and wrong,the only purpose of my post was to stop this fallacy madness of judging people wrong because they don't follow Blizzard blindly.

Not a single person here is saying anything that can be construed as "following Blizzard blindly". Holtz himself has said that there are quite a few things that he does not like about the game. The only comments he's made is on how this Judgment change won't be nearly as bad as people seem to think, and that people need to be far less hyperbolic with their arguments (and provide evidence to back them up).

[JayJay09]

@ Malthanis: Regarding your last sentence: "The thing is, paladins are uniquely able to actively counter the Necrotic Strike debuff, specifically because we can heal ourselves along with the healer."

A good dk has no problem to give you a rotation of NS that you could never outheal on your own. And having ns or not having ns screws up your cds completely. If something is rdy in 0,5 sec (let's say 3 sec cd) it suddenly takes 1,4 (or 1,25 sec with 25% NS) sec if NS got applied that moment. Thus you have to reclick the ability 0,9 (0,75 sec) sec later than you actually anticipated and this might result in not realising it instantly so you wonder why the ability was not used. This is annoying for that little effort the DK puts into. And still, healing costs a lot of dmg. And just look at inquisition.. Without the glyph you need so much holy power just to keep it up.. Why has that been changed from 12 back to 10? I just don't get it.. Blizzard needs to explain stuff like that and make sense while doing so.. And you need inq not only because of the holy dmg but also because of the increase of your crit chance by 10%. But you would not want to take the glyph. The glyph looks like an insult for every pvp player. You need to time your burst right and you would never miss out on 15% holy dmg. The whole glyph is meant for farming or lvling or nonsense like that. It might be a dps increase for PvE because of the crit and the reduced frequence of renewing it.. But I even doubt that. In PvE keeping up inq is not the problem.. Having use from it in PvP is another story.. The time I got out of fear and sheep sufficed to have me reapply inq again..

In theory your points sound quite reasonable. But practically, they are just not because there is so much that comes together.

[Estragenlol]

It is mind boggling to see someone post and say Censure's damage isn't a a good chunk of our DPS. Anyone who has access to Beta knows otherwise.

Just to double check nothing has happened since I was last on ran a couple Heroics as Prot and Ret(first time playing Ret on Beta).


I'll give a quick breakdown of the picture for people who are kind of slow.

First fight is pretty much your basic tank and spank fight. Even though there was only one target, as you can see Censure did quite a bit of damage.

Second fight has two transitions where boss flies away and adds come down. Being able to apply 2 more stacks throughout certain parts of the fight allowed Censure to pull ahead of Judgment.

Third fight has adds constantly spawning. Because the adds have low health though it didn't give enough time to get stacks up and instead HotR did most of the work. Censure still was the top damage though because of the extra stacks it did give when possible along with keeping it refreshed on boss.


As for Ret on single target fights Censure generally ended up being around 10-11% of my damage (similar to live). And on fights with more than 1 target up to 14-16%. I'm sure with a proper interface and more time playing it could of been even higher.

TL;DR
-Censure is good.
-Judgment applying Censure added an extra skill-cap.
-Judgment becoming a spell has tons of repercussions for Ret in PvP. They are very obvious to anyone has played more than 10 games of arena.

[Deleted]

@Malthanis

I honestly didn't see any condescension there, and the devs don't make changes just for the sake of doing so. No developer of a successful, ongoing project will ever say to themselves "Hmm, I haven't worked on this part for a long time, let's tweak it a bit and add/change functionality". They base decisions like that on observations and collected data. Those observations and collected data may be right, wrong, or so far off-base as to be in a completely different universe, but that's what happens.

Its obvious they don't make changes for nothing,that's not the point,but in his post he used it as an argument as to why this was a good decision from Blizzard,again implying that Blizzard is right because they know what they are doing,''they didn't make this change for nothing''.Which again is a fallacy,they make errors too,even if their changes are with a good intention.

How can you not see any wrong in this?An argument like ''Blizzard knows what they are doing,they are professionals...blabla''-thus your complains hold no ground
This should never be brought up when giving player feedback since players too can decide whether something is wrong or not,not only Blizzard..It doesn't have anything to do with anything,its just an empty statement that worsen the discussion when used as an argument.

[Requital]

Personally I suggest ignoring Holtzmann and anyone else that presents incoherent babble for the sake of this thread, I'm trying to compile more data to present to Blizzard so they take a longer look at this instead of making such a hasty switch without putting much thought into it. Multiple people in this thread truly know nothing about this class but will defend Blizzard till the day they die. Just ignore their attitude and please stay on topic, We need more people posting logical responses on the Beta forums and not being rude about it in the process.

Judgement changing to a spell and why it needs to remain as a melee based mechanic.

Detrimental effects to PvP

* Negates Holy Power generation ( during Silence effects )
* Negates Burden of Guilt ( during Silence effects )
* Negates Long Arm of the Law and Pursuit of Justice ( during Silence effects )
* Increase Ramp up time for Seal of Truth stacking

Detrimental effects to PvE

* Increases Ramp up time for Seal of Truth stacks
* Target swapping for Raid encounters becomes problematic for Raid DPS requirements.

Obviously there are more things than this so if you don't have the ability to post on the forums and want to get heard please just get the information to me it is very important that we get this information presented to Blizzard before it's too late.

[Deleted]

Since it's a spell now does Judgement still proc mages Frost Armor?
If it doesn't proc Frost Armor anymore, well then that's one good thing which isn't really major.

I don't like this change, not being able to keep Censure up at range seems a bit harsh in my opinion. Seems like Blizzard's intent is to kill off the multidotting part of Seal of Truth and just make it into a "use this and do bonus dmg" ability.

[Deathgoose]

I can understand if they wanted to remove the ability to proc Censure.

I just don't understand why that necessitated changing it from a melee ability to a spell ability.

[Xeroskillz]

I don't really agree with the change, but I feel that we need to look at it as 2 separate changes.

Change 1: Censure stacking and multi-dotting.
the change affects how soon we are able to get to max censure stacks. This affects the amount of damage that censure does by itself, but if our overall damage is in line with other dps classes / specs I do not see a problem with this specific part of the change for PvE. (I haven't been on beta and don't know where we are dps wise in comparison to other classes).

Change 2: Being affected by silences.
I see this as something that may have been unintended or an oversight on Blizzards part specifically for PvP. Judgement by itself will contribute to a lot of the movement augmenting effects which are in the paladin toolkit.

One and or both of these consequences of the change might have been intended by blizz.

[Reith]

Besides the whole point of multi-dotting with Censure (which was probably too complicated for you to handle ), Judgment becoming a spell has bigger issues.
A Paladin get's CS'ed that locks them out of Exorcism, Holy Wrath, healing/hand spells, and now Judgment.
Do you not see the problem with that?

I'm pretty sure Judgement was always locked out with CS anyway.. nothing changed with that. We've always been vulnerable to silences and it's always pissed people off.

[Deathgoose]

I'm pretty sure Judgement was always locked out with CS anyway.. nothing changed with that. We've always been vulnerable to silences and it's always pissed people off.

Judgement is currently available when silenced, because it's some wonky "ranged melee" attack. HoW and Exorcism, however, are not.

In Mists, Judgement won't be available as well, unless this this change is reverted.

[Reith]

Now that 18 seconds in MoP will be 22-24 seconds because we lost so much Haste between losing Seal of Truth Glyph and having to reforge into Expertise and losing jotp. This is a game breaking change for Ret regardless if you want to admit it and if we aren't vocal about it we will be stuck being shit for the first tier again.

I don't know if you're on the beta or not, but Crusader Strike and Templar's Verdict both stack Censure... just saying.

[Requital]

I don't know if you're on the beta or not, but Crusader Strike and Templar's Verdict both stack Censure... just saying.

Yes thanks for that insight, It's unrelated to judgement.

---------- Post added 2012-07-25 at 08:07 PM ----------

I'm pretty sure Judgement was always locked out with CS anyway.. nothing changed with that. We've always been vulnerable to silences and it's always pissed people off.

Judgement has been a melee mechanic for a while, silence locking it has been gone since TBC.

[Reith]

Well then I am dumbfounded why they changed it when the repercussions to Ret are... less-than-desirable. If they're so dead-set on it being considered a spell, maybe they could just make Ret not able to be silenced OR get something in return for being silenced - and make a couple other adjustments like Judgment still proccing the Seals (except Justice).