1. #2861
    Quote Originally Posted by Nillo View Post
    Holy don't get all that much mana from SoI anyway so unless it isn't aimed at prot I don't know the point of this change !:
    Completely aimed at prot. Slootbag just commented that already he has mana issues with his hastelevels, don't want to see what's going to happen now. Blizzard is aggressively trying to kill fun in this game.

    Kjc needed, hate tanking nerfed.

  2. #2862
    Quote Originally Posted by trystero View Post
    What am I missing about the BH change? This is the tooltip now: Using melee attacks while using Seal of Insight heals a nearby injured friendly target, excluding the Paladin, within 30 yards for 20% of damage dealt.
    New BH makes it so that SOI no longer heals us, and heals the lowest health party member instead. So, bye-bye self heals (if you glyph it).
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  3. #2863
    Quote Originally Posted by trystero View Post
    What am I missing about the BH change? This is the tooltip now: Using melee attacks while using Seal of Insight heals a nearby injured friendly target, excluding the Paladin, within 30 yards for 20% of damage dealt.

    I don't believe that they know what they're doing. It's all ad hoc, random guessing with stubbornness. Case in point, the latest change to SS. EVERYONE knew, once they redesigned that talent tier, that we were receiving an unnecessary survivability buff. Only after testing it out did they realize this, and reverted the change. How'd they not see it coming? Or go back to the patch that put Charms in the currency tab, because they didn't want to overload our inventory space. In the same patch, they introduced another currency - the tokens from Domination Point - that was kept...in...our...backpacks.

    We're gonna be hit with some big nerfs imo.
    Basically it's the death of battlehealer glyph since SoI will not heal us anymore when we have it active. SoI and SS are huge factors of total heals done on us.

    And to be honest, I was expecting another BH nerf, its a slippery slope when a tank outheals healers passively on fights with high vengeance.

    The SoI change will make us go away from haste (high haste OOMs us without current SoI) and thé GC change is another negative change for haste tanking since avoidance will be the only GC source.

    I don't know it for sure now, but I advice you to get a control>avoidence set for 5.4; No Fun Allowed on the Blizzard train.

  4. #2864
    I can run low on mana if using Seal of Truth.

    This is all without haste and assuming we get no GC procs and not factoring in more than a basic priority (because I don't have time for that right now)

    Crusader Strike costs 15% base mana every 4.5 seconds --> 3.3% base mana cost per second
    Judgement costs 5% base mana every 6.75 seconds --> 0.74% base mana cost per second
    AS costs 8% base mana every 15 seconds --> 1.85% base mana per second
    holy wrath 5% base mana every 9 seconds --> 0.56% base mana per second

    sum: 6.47% base mana spent per second
    GbtL regens 3% base mana every second

    --> after 30 seconds you are bone dry without SoI mana regen.

    disclaimer: very approximate, don't yell at me, got more important things on my mind than computer games.

  5. #2865
    Quote Originally Posted by Pickwickman View Post
    Completely aimed at prot. Slootbag just commented that already he has mana issues with his hastelevels, don't want to see what's going to happen now. Blizzard is aggressively trying to kill fun in this game.

    Kjc needed, hate tanking nerfed.
    I guess I just don't notice it with SOI, but yeah...6% of 60k is only 3600 mp/2, so with J @3k, CS/HotR @1.8k, AS @4.2k, HW@3k, Cons@4.2k, we're going to be OOM fast as hell.

    Rebuke @ 7k mana? Gotta pool that mana up for interrupts guys! GG

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    I can run low on mana if using Seal of Truth.

    This is all without haste and assuming we get no GC procs and not factoring in more than a basic priority (because I don't have time for that right now)

    Crusader Strike costs 15% base mana every 4.5 seconds --> 3.3% base mana cost per second
    Judgement costs 5% base mana every 6.75 seconds --> 0.74% base mana cost per second
    AS costs 8% base mana every 15 seconds --> 1.85% base mana per second
    holy wrath 5% base mana every 9 seconds --> 0.56% base mana per second

    sum: 6.47% base mana spent per second
    GbtL regens 3% base mana every second

    --> after 30 seconds you are bone dry without SoI mana regen.

    disclaimer: very approximate, don't yell at me, got more important things on my mind than computer games.
    That's what I got with my napkin math too....30sec til oom. Which seems beyond ridiculous. Something has to be wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  6. #2866
    Never mind I get it.

  7. #2867
    Quote Originally Posted by trystero View Post
    I'm confused, sorry. The tooltip says already that we don't heal ourselves through BH; we directly heal ourselves from SoI, independent of BH. Looking at H Tortos, where I don't glyph BH, I still have a ton of heals from SoI.
    In 5.4 the SoI heal would no longer heal us but be redirected. The current battle healer healing would be axed.

  8. #2868
    And yeah I agree, that is a TERRIBLE glyph now. Why even leave it in the game? lol

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    In 5.4 the SoI heal would no longer heal us but be redirected. The current battle healer healing would be axed.
    Yeah as soon as I finished posting that I understood. I guess my brain just refused to believe that they'd redesign the glyph in such a way that it'd rival the current Inquisition one for "Worst of all time."

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    I can run low on mana if using Seal of Truth.

    This is all without haste and assuming we get no GC procs and not factoring in more than a basic priority (because I don't have time for that right now)

    Crusader Strike costs 15% base mana every 4.5 seconds --> 3.3% base mana cost per second
    Judgement costs 5% base mana every 6.75 seconds --> 0.74% base mana cost per second
    AS costs 8% base mana every 15 seconds --> 1.85% base mana per second
    holy wrath 5% base mana every 9 seconds --> 0.56% base mana per second

    sum: 6.47% base mana spent per second
    GbtL regens 3% base mana every second

    --> after 30 seconds you are bone dry without SoI mana regen.

    disclaimer: very approximate, don't yell at me, got more important things on my mind than computer games.
    How about that, a game where skillful, fast play is punished, rather than rewarded!

    :eyeroll:

  9. #2869
    [QUOTE=trystero;21694251]And yeah I agree, that is a TERRIBLE glyph now. Why even leave it in the game? lol

    - - - Updated - - -


    Well, at least you don't have to make the decision of going for BH or another offensive glyph anymore. I mean, it's ok to have monks throw shields around passively, but my paladin brethren suddenly aren't allowed to heal anymore.


    Fuck me, I thought we were past this, I was waiting for something quirky for all tank classes. Bloodworms more controlled, warriors giving out bubbles by boosting allies morale...

    Ah well, ptr is ptr, I wish I had an US account lying around so I could help the protesting against dumb shit like this. Alas, blizzard doesn't listen as well to the eu forums. -_-

  10. #2870
    Quote Originally Posted by Pickwickman View Post
    Completely aimed at prot. Slootbag just commented that already he has mana issues with his hastelevels, don't want to see what's going to happen now. Blizzard is aggressively trying to kill fun in this game.

    Kjc needed, hate tanking nerfed.
    Hmm, all this will do is steer away people from tanking and piss off the current paladin tank "core". Seems like they took the easy way out, that is breaking the ever living crap out of our class instead of balancing encounters and vengence. Oh well, i'll sit on this and see what happens.

    Not particularly thrilled about having all my gearing nerfed for seige ethier.
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  11. #2871
    Quote Originally Posted by Pickwickman View Post
    Fuck me, I thought we were past this, I was waiting for something quirky for all tank classes. Bloodworms more controlled, warriors giving out bubbles by boosting allies morale...
    Exactly what irks me the most. I thought, with all the "we're so happy with the paladin model" comments, that we were moving towards boosting the "lower" tanks up (with things like Riposte bandaid). Instead, we're just dumbing shit back down and regressing back to the dark ages.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  12. #2872
    Deleted
    It looks to me that they're trying to turn Battle Healer into a holy glyph. Remove SoI's mana return, turn SoI healing into a smart heal when glyphed etc. Blizzard really didn't know what they were doing when they dreamt up Battle Healer. They have stated in the past that they actually meant for it be a glyph for RET pallies... Because SoI is so awesome for them?

    The 5.3 nerf and now this complete murdering of its usefulness for prot probably means they don't want tanks to use it.

    And these mana issues... If they do remove the mana return from SoI, I would be very, VERY confused if GbtL's mana return wasn't buffed to compensate. VERY confused.

  13. #2873
    Quote Originally Posted by ccqpuodp View Post
    It looks to me that they're trying to turn Battle Healer into a holy glyph. Remove SoI's mana return, turn SoI healing into a smart heal when glyphed etc. Blizzard really didn't know what they were doing when they dreamt up Battle Healer. They have stated in the past that they actually meant for it be a glyph for RET pallies... Because SoI is so awesome for them?

    The 5.3 nerf and now this complete murdering of its usefulness for prot probably means they don't want tanks to use it.

    And these mana issues... If they do remove the mana return from SoI, I would be very, VERY confused if GbtL's mana return wasn't buffed to compensate. VERY confused.
    That's my hope. Else I'll likely shelf the Pally before being forced to go back to avoidance tanking.

    In fact, your whole post is my train of thought; trying to make SoI more like HPal fistweaving or something, but not thinking AT ALL about the ramifications towards Prot.

    Good post going on here: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/9423553519
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  14. #2874
    Someone there made a good point: that's a huge change in the middle of an expansion. That alone leads me to believe that they won't let this get out of hand. Besides, the notion of a tank running out of mana...from using his regular rotation...that's pretty nuts.

  15. #2875
    Going to throw out my 2 cents.

    1) SoL : probably aimed at holy paladins and prot will be compensated. (Lol i can't use taunt innervate me)
    2) Battle-healer turns from 100% braindead choice with only benefit to a highly efficient glyph that allows us instead of having giant flow of overhealing (say you're full + under sacred + sotr) to pump out raid healing like crazy (esp since it's most likely going to scale with veng)

    Seeing how i generally like but never rely on SoL to keep me up, all it means is that healers can focus more on me instead of some random dps standing in the puddle.

  16. #2876
    Titan MerinPally's Avatar
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    Eurgh, just read those preliminary patch notes you're all going on about. If no other change is made, this is a dark day.

    They say they want tanks to manage a resource for survival and cool we all have that, now they want paladins to manage 2? Monks are the closest thing to that already but the energy isn't as limiting a factor as mana would be for us should the proposed changes go through with 0 alterations.
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...nicus/advanced
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    I dont care if they [gays] are allowed to donate [blood], but I think we should have an option to refuse gay blood if we need to receive blood.

  17. #2877
    Deleted
    Well my monks looking like a pretty good takn to play again in 5.4.... Thanks blizzard

  18. #2878
    Titan MerinPally's Avatar
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    Should probably add to my post - it wouldn't be impossible and it'd definitely put another level of skill onto playing the class which I'm neither for or against, probably against though - but they'd just need to compensate with something. That's all. It's not quite tidings of doom if it went live as is currently written (which I doubt) but it's not great either.

    Thing is that you can already see the difference between someone terrible and someone who knows what they're doing. As I think I posted earlier, I was 480ilvl the other protadin was 530 and both haste stacked. I took less damage, did more healing and out dpsed him. Only just but... the gear difference was vast. I'm not so sure another tier is needed above that, which would also push the other 2 tiers down a bit.
    Last edited by MerinPally; 2013-07-09 at 11:35 AM.
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...nicus/advanced
    Quote Originally Posted by goblinpaladin View Post
    Also a vegetable is a person.
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    I dont care if they [gays] are allowed to donate [blood], but I think we should have an option to refuse gay blood if we need to receive blood.

  19. #2879
    Slept on it, just to make sure I wasn't overreacting.

    Nope. Still livid.

    This is simply insane. I CAN accept the Grand Crusader change, as annoying as it is for times when offtanking or tanking 1 mob, since it's likely a net gain on 3+ mobs. I can begrudingly accept the BH gutting, even though DKs keep passive worms and BrMs keep passive party shields, simply because it's pretty powerful for a glyph (even if already nerfed). Though, with the nerf to it and Alab Shield, our glyph choices are a bit...meh.

    But, SOI is downright foolish. Going OOM (using SoT) in ~2 mins, and that's not factoring in Rebuke (@12% mana!) or rebuffs, or the odd off-heal. Let's hope all fights in SoO are short?

    What a fucking joke.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  20. #2880
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    This is simply insane. I CAN accept the Grand Crusader change, as annoying as it is for times when offtanking or tanking 1 mob, since it's likely a net gain on 3+ mobs.
    Comparing at 50% haste and 30% avoidance, it is a netgain when you recieve an attack about every 1.4 seconds give or take.

    At 3 mobs at the same values it is a gain of 4.08 HoPo per minute, or 60% gain from GC.

    At 10 mobs it is a gain 19.2 HoPo per minute or an increase of 114% from previously. 30% avoidance of course.

    How high avoidance values can we get if we go for more avoidance? Anyone knows?

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