1. #1041
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    You say that you can achieve as high as 35% overall healing done on yourself with sacred shield. And other healers absorb etc.
    That does not matter. You do not use your CDs overall, you use them when you need them. Granted, that you actually will need them.
    You use your CDs when you know that your own absorbs and healers absorbs and heals will not be enough. When you know you will take alot of damage.
    Well it's pretty easy to look at Sacred Shield healing done during burst periods.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/4...#tab-healspell

    With a couple of PW:S thrown in that would easily be 30% healing done, negating an entire 30% of a healing cooldown. Overhealing is a little difficult to analyse but you can't just disregard the fact that you will have more overhealing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Now lets back up a bit and look at the actual HP gain from each spell.

    For model I am going to use a character with 25% haste.

    During an ideal situation ( You starting HA with both CS and J off cooldown )
    You will get off 5 CS and 4 judgments during HA. This leads to gain of 27 HoPo disregarding GC procs. During the HA. Not sure if we should disregard GC procs or not. Hmm, lets say we have the old system still.
    5 cs, 20% chance, that is 1 GC proc in average. Another 3 HoPo.

    So we are up to 30 HoPo during the duration of the HA. However, we need to consider the fact that SW lasts for 30 seconds.

    During the next 12 seconds after the HA. You would get off 2 judgements and 4 CS.
    That is another 6.8 HoPo, leading to a total off 36.8 HoPo during the 30 seconds.

    The SW is easier to check.

    13 judgements
    6 cs

    An average of 20.2 HoPo

    So that is a trade off from 16.6 HoPo vs taking 20% increased healing taken and doing 44% more self healing for 30 seconds.
    Nowhere near the extreme difference that you mentioned.
    Why complicate it? Ignore Avenger's Shield for simplicity (should be roughly the same number of procs regardless). 20% haste means a 1.25 second GCD.

    If you're doing your rotation correctly it'll look like this when not under SW:
    CS - J - X
    CS - X - J
    CS - X - X

    Under SW:
    J - CS - J - X

    That results in:

    Holy Avenger, 16 "extra" holy power gained, 120s cooldown, 0.13 recurring HP/sec.
    Sanctified Wrath, 4 "extra" holy power gained, 180s cooldown, 0.02 recurring HP/sec.

    These are with the standard holy power gained subtracted. Remember that we are only concerned with any additional HP that will be gained during the cooldown. That's also assuming that we use both cooldowns as soon as they are available which is never the case. I find myself usually getting off 3 Holy Avengers compared to 2 Avenging Wraths on an average fight.

    Overall it's around ~5% less ShotR uptime when using SW over HA. The key points when making a decision will be how useful the healing increase is and whether or not you need the long period of 100% ShotR uptime that HA provides (Empress and Wind Lord are both fantastic fights as examples of this).

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Though any boss with magic damage heavy phase will favor SW.
    I will agree that SW is attractive on heavy magic damage fights. Lei Shi and heroic Protectors immediately spring to mind. HA is useless for survivability on the former and much less worthwhile on the latter as more than half of the damage that you take is magical.

    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Also SW adds more dps (although negliable). Simply because during normal rotation, you push back J in favor of CS. In SW you push back CS in favor of J. J hits alot harder than CS causing SW to pull ahead.
    This is only partially true. With SW (especially under Bloodlust) you're pushing back all of your other abilities even more. CS and J are our weakest hitting abilities. Theck recently reran his sims in matlab to account for higher vengeance and HA is ahead regardless of vengeance when you are aiming for 15% expertise. If you don't want to cap expertise then SW will likely pull ahead, though remember that once you reach 50% melee haste, additional haste is actually a DPS loss. This will impact the DPS of SW during Bloodlust (a period where you will normally want to pop Avenging Wrath).

    You can find the results of those sims here: http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.c...718671#p718671
    Last edited by mmocc7215da24b; 2013-02-05 at 10:36 PM.

  2. #1042
    So does it look like Haste is still going to be King (after Hit and Expertise) once 5.2 hits? Because I don't want to get a bunch of gear with Haste only to find out it's going to be bad for me once 5.2 hits and then all of a sudden having a bunch of pieces that I need to replace.

  3. #1043
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auk View Post
    ]Sanctified Wrath, 4 "extra" holy power gained, 180s cooldown, 0.02 recurring HP/sec.
    One thing to remember is that SW is on 115s cooldown with 4p retri. ( Used to be 85 QQ, why did they have to nerf rets? )

    Yeah, I am not capped in expertise yet so probably thats why SW still grants me more dps. Though with the 4p ret I believe that SW pulls ahead no questions asked.

    Additional haste is also not a dps loss after 50%. You can still perform your rotation exactly the same way at 55% and 65% haste, only difference is that you will melee swing slightly faster giving you a really tiny tiny increase.


    I still like SW because it is alot stronger cooldown for shorter period off times. This reminds me of the whole haste vs mastery debate. HA reminds of haste, without the added benefit of a huge amount of dps increase.The dps increase/decrease between SW and HA is really negliable. Only if you have 4p ret SW pulls ahead alot, SW wins on AE over HA though by quite a bit. If you use battle healer glyph you will also see a bigger increase in hps with SW, something that theck did not model properly in his sims was that actually. You will ofc also see stronger SoI heals with SW aswell. The gear sets used in the simulation does not have very realistic stats either.

    HA provides longer smoother protection.
    SW provides a stronger smooth short (15-25s) term protection and then a near equal reduction yet a bit more uneven for the remainder of the duration.

    If we were talking about two passive skills here (ofc not as strong but with similar effect), HA would probably be better. But I feel like in the majority of cases. SW is stronger for defensive purposes aswell.
    CDs are CDs. Tanks don't use them to reduce TDR over the course of a figth, they use them because they know they are gonna have a problem surviving something and need instant help.

    Even though I am haste stacking, if I had to choose between a trinket that had on-use haste or on-use mastery, I would take the on-use mastery as it would be a stronger cd. I would rather take passive haste over passive mastery ofc.
    And the SW vs HA is a bit in the same boat, except not as simple.
    Arguments can be made for both ways, both are good on some fights, but it is my opinion that SW is stronger on more fights simply because it provides a stronger initial damage reduction which is what we really need most of the time.

    Another thing with SW, is that you do not always want survival. Sometimes you just want pure dps. Then you can actually drop CS to the back of the priority and use a J-Filler-J-Filler rotation using CS as the lowest filler. This will not hurt your HoPo gain that much but will grant you higher dps.

    Have used this on some figths like Gara'Jal when being off-tank during <20% and Elegon HC burn phase.

    SW just feels like a more versitile talent. HA is so straigth forward in comparison.



    ---------- Post added 2013-02-05 at 11:53 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Zerdus View Post
    So does it look like Haste is still going to be King (after Hit and Expertise) once 5.2 hits? Because I don't want to get a bunch of gear with Haste only to find out it's going to be bad for me once 5.2 hits and then all of a sudden having a bunch of pieces that I need to replace.
    The changes caused haste to pull ahead more from mastery. Though not even noticeable.

    TLDR: Nothing changed. If you look at it with a microscope, the change favors haste a tiny molecule more than it favors mastery. Dodge and parry? Well, they are still a pile of crap. They just sprayed a deoderant on it. Even though it smells better now, it is still crap.
    Last edited by mmoc4d8e5d065a; 2013-02-05 at 11:01 PM.

  4. #1044
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    One thing to remember is that SW is on 115s cooldown with 4p retri. ( Used to be 85 QQ, why did they have to nerf rets? )

    Yeah, I am not capped in expertise yet so probably thats why SW still grants me more dps. Though with the 4p ret I believe that SW pulls ahead no questions asked.

    Additional haste is also not a dps loss after 50%. You can still perform your rotation exactly the same way at 55% and 65% haste, only difference is that you will melee swing slightly faster giving you a really tiny tiny increase.
    In order to gain any HPG from any haste past 50% it's a DPS loss. Of course you can just stop using the CS - X - X rotation but that kind of defeats the purpose of having so much haste. Faster melee swings are pretty much worthless, you'd rather have crit.

    Obviously this is currently only barely relevant during Bloodlust but I thought it worth mentioning as it does affect the value of SW slightly.

  5. #1045
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auk View Post
    In order to gain any HPG from any haste past 50% it's a DPS loss. Of course you can just stop using the CS - X - X rotation but that kind of defeats the purpose of having so much haste. Faster melee swings are pretty much worthless, you'd rather have crit.

    Obviously this is currently only barely relevant during Bloodlust but I thought it worth mentioning as it does affect the value of SW slightly.
    Doesnt really affect the value of SW.

    It gives you an active choice.

    I can keep my normal rotation
    or I can get more HoPo for a cost of dps.

    It is the same with HA aswell. Same trade off.

    So it affects HA in the same way.
    Last edited by mmoc4d8e5d065a; 2013-02-06 at 01:47 AM.

  6. #1046
    I might just be missing something but for the new Shield of the Righteous, is the 30%-80% damage reduction proc random, or is it linked to something else like mastery?

  7. #1047
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absintheminded View Post
    I might just be missing something but for the new Shield of the Righteous, is the 30%-80% damage reduction proc random, or is it linked to something else like mastery?
    It's still linked to mastery, it's just to prevent mastery capping either in the future or at lower levels I assumed. To add a random chance on how much you'd prevent seems a step backwards considering they want to push active mitigation rather than a random nature.
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...nicus/advanced
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  8. #1048
    So.... go-go gadget 5.2 mastery?

  9. #1049
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    Quote Originally Posted by Absintheminded View Post
    So.... go-go gadget 5.2 mastery?
    No - gogo gadget haste (same as now) because this just puts a maximum value on mastery for us, it doesn't increase the value of mastery at all because it doesn't increase the amount of damage we reduce for each point of mastery.

    The only change that alters our stats much is the Grand Crusader change and that makes dodge and parry slightly better stats than they are currently but they're still worse than Haste and Mastery so our stat priority stays the same as it is now pretty much, only difference being that dodge and parry aren't as far behind as they used to be.
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...nicus/advanced
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  10. #1050
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    The change is to stop anyone else getting into the 80 paladin fiasco (99% reduction, the bug still happens). Not that anyone is likely to ever reach it unless 85s get some ilevel 500+ gear.

  11. #1051
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    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    Paladin
    - We are going to try Grand Crusader proc'd by CS, HotR and dodge and parry (at lower chances for each).
    - We are going to buff Seal of Justice and Seal of Righteousness damage. Neither of these Seals is seeing enough use. Justice was always intended to be a strong PvP Seal, and it just isn't right now. We haven't solidified numbers yet - I'm just sharing our intent.
    Uhm, again... Doesn't this make Haste even more valuable with dodge and parry just... Less awful? Even a step down from the first change if their goal is to make us want to see those stats on our gear.

  12. #1052
    Good change, glad he realized how much of a nerf this change was to our resource generation and dps.

  13. #1053
    Will be really happy if this change sticks, didn't really like sound of losing the cs/hotr proc chance from it

    ......................Protection Paladin PoV.....................

  14. #1054
    I want to know the proc chances before I comment on how much more awesome it might be. But it looks better than before (actually getting procs while not tanking is nice).

  15. #1055
    Epic! Xothic's Avatar
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    Crap, im like two weeks out of the loop with Prot paladins. What has happened? Has GC announced some kind of fix?
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  16. #1056
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xothic View Post
    Crap, im like two weeks out of the loop with Prot paladins. What has happened? Has GC announced some kind of fix?
    Only change is what is written above your post. So, in short, no. If by "fix" you meant making haste not top.

    We're the same as we were before except dodge and parry aren't as far behind as they used to be. That's literally it.
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...nicus/advanced
    Quote Originally Posted by goblinpaladin View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    I dont care if they [gays] are allowed to donate [blood], but I think we should have an option to refuse gay blood if we need to receive blood.

  17. #1057
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xothic View Post
    Crap, im like two weeks out of the loop with Prot paladins. What has happened? Has GC announced some kind of fix?
    Sure, they made grand crusader proc of dodge and parry instead of nerfing haste. The intent was for prot paladins to "enjoy" drops with these stats on them. However it still didn't change the fact that haste is our best stat. The problem with this change though was that whenever we weren't getting melee'd by anything, we wouldn't see any grand crusader procs. They now changed it to proc off CS and HoTR like normal but also including dodge and parry while lowering the total proc chance. It basically makes no difference although i like the change.

    On another note, playing with protection 4 piece on PTR raid testing i'm just amazing at the amount of prolonged mitigation we can pull off with HA/SW and divine protection immediately after or vice versa. Swimming in holy power for such a long period. It also makes divine protection an amazing cooldown in itself. I thought i would cap HP a lot since the nature of losing 20% health is kind of random a lot of times (depending on external buffs/cooldowns on you, dodge/parries etc), but it worked out really well for me on the boss testing.

  18. #1058
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    hmmm odd - so they take GC (from a gearing stat prio ptv) away from us then give it us back....odd. Tbh i was quite overjoyed that they didnt "nerf" haste that i didnt mind the GC "nerf" to proc from avoidance but this new change (? didnt see it on front page but take it that it is a blue post) does relieve that concern abit. Though would like to know what they mean by:


    Grand Crusader proc'd by CS, HotR and dodge and parry (at lower chances for each).

    Seal changes are also welcome as as right now there is APPROACHING ZERO choice.

  19. #1059
    Epic! Xothic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teks View Post
    Sure, they made grand crusader proc of dodge and parry instead of nerfing haste. The intent was for prot paladins to "enjoy" drops with these stats on them. However it still didn't change the fact that haste is our best stat. The problem with this change though was that whenever we weren't getting melee'd by anything, we wouldn't see any grand crusader procs. They now changed it to proc off CS and HoTR like normal but also including dodge and parry while lowering the total proc chance. It basically makes no difference although i like the change.

    On another note, playing with protection 4 piece on PTR raid testing i'm just amazing at the amount of prolonged mitigation we can pull off with HA/SW and divine protection immediately after or vice versa. Swimming in holy power for such a long period. It also makes divine protection an amazing cooldown in itself. I thought i would cap HP a lot since the nature of losing 20% health is kind of random a lot of times (depending on external buffs/cooldowns on you, dodge/parries etc), but it worked out really well for me on the boss testing.
    Huh. If that is all they intend to do to change Protadins, buffing D/P while keeping Haste as the top stat, then I must say I am both fairly pleased and impressed they didn't outright fuck it up.
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  20. #1060
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    Quote Originally Posted by rawhammer View Post
    Though would like to know what they mean by:


    Grand Crusader proc'd by CS, HotR and dodge and parry (at lower chances for each).
    Right now it's 20% chance on CS/HotR, and the previous change was 30% chance on avoid. Most likely the new version will be something like 10% chance on CS/HotR and 15% chance on avoid (i.e. it works on both, but the chance for each to happen is lower).

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