[MoP] Protection Paladin Guide

[Deleted]

The damage meta does look interesting but I'm not sure I can pass on that damage reductio. It might not make a difference during normal progression but I suppose there'll be a couple bosses in heroic progression where tank damage will be high.

Damage reduction meta still not predictable. Until I have played the boss fights myself first hand I won't state anything like a fact, however, assuming that the next tiers damage taken from a tank PoV follow the same pattern as this tier, it won't really be that useful.

It will be a nice to have but nothing game breaking. Nothing prevents that meta from being down when I need it and up when I do not need it.

From a tanking PoV, there are 2 things you want.

Static effective health - Stamina, armor, magic damage meta, etc, basically, anything that ALWAYS help you, always is there for you, stuff that are never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down, never gonna run around and desert you

On-demand damage reduction/Effective health - Mastery, CDs, good on use trinkets (read as, not dodge or parry), etc

That meta is just plain TDR, and that is not really that great as a tank, nice to have but not that we die for it. That damage meta looks nice for 10 man PoV, to bad it is just not the effect, I would love to have the stamina + the effect from the damage meta.

[Nairobi]

Strongly considering the Capacitive meta, myself. It may have been covered somewhere, and perhaps I missed it, but do we know if it will scale with Vengeance, or is it a set value for the strike? We saw that it now scales off of melee/ranged crit instead of spell (not a huge deal as a tank, but worth noting), and scales [well] with haste via RPPM.

Seeing as our group will be running 10man only this tier (meh), I agree that TDR is vastly underwhelming. And if this tier is anything like 5.0, tank damage will be a big part (majority in some cases) of raid damage, so boosting that is far more interesting to me. Not a huge fan of passive crit (vs passive stam) but not a deal-breaker for me.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

The damage from the nature proc is = 280+(AP*0.75)

[Promdates]

I'm thinking about something like this

Level 522
Required level 417
Stamina 29,287
Strength 13,902
Mastery rating 3469
Armor 54,823
Dodge rating 1142
Parry rating 1167
Expertise rating 5123
Haste rating 9771
Hit rating 2518
Gem Slots: 1M, 6R, 5Y, 3B, 3P (18 total)

Still need reforging properly, could probably get another 1-2k stamina out of it without losing too many stat points.

I did a comparison with yours, trying to go for as much haste as possible.

http://ptr.wowhead.com/compare?items...39:94526:94528

Gains:
2760 Sta
400 Str
31 Mastery (0.05)
335 Parry (0.38%)

vs

495 Dodge (0.56%)
344 Crit (0.58%)
79 Expertise (0.23)
4004 Haste (9.42%)
34 Hit (0.1%)
5 Sockets

This also doesn't have the prismastic socket on the weapon from the legendary questline, which gives it another 320 haste. Basically you sacrifice roughly 50-60k hp for 10% haste. The crit is pretty worthless, but it's got a socket and expertise.

[Deleted]

The damage from the nature proc is = 280+(AP*0.75)

Do you know how often it procs?

And how often the tank meta procs aswell. Would be good to know rough proc chances.
I am really not up to date with anything from PTR in terms of gear and bosses.

Though that scaling is sick if it is like that. It hits slightly lower than a HoW then.

We saw that it now scales off of melee/ranged crit instead of spell (not a huge deal as a tank, but worth noting), and scales [well] with haste via RPPM.

Aff, that sucks for us tanks stacking int spirit+haste items since int gives spell crit!

---------- Post added 2013-03-04 at 09:38 PM ----------

Not a huge fan of passive crit (vs passive stam) but not a deal-breaker for me.

Could have been worse, parry or dodge.

[Nairobi]

Just saw the 75% AP coefficient. Also, 21.0 RPPM, with a 1.0 modifier for "non-traditional" spec.

So, roughly every 10-12 seconds, we'll be firing off a strike for 60k dmg. Not bad.

This would be nuts on things like Wind Lord HC with the 300% dmg taken and stupid high vengeance, well over 1m dmg...

[Deleted]

Just saw the 75% AP coefficient. Also, 21.0 RPPM, with a 1.0 modifier for "non-traditional" spec.

So, roughly every 10-12 seconds, we'll be firing off a strike for 60k dmg. Not bad.

This would be nuts on things like Wind Lord HC with the 300% dmg taken and stupid high vengeance, well over 1m dmg...

It will be far higher than 60k. We have a lot of attack power from just strength on our gear. Also the bosses in the new tier should hit harder than the current tier. Probably having atleast 25k attack power from just strength, add buffs and stuff onto that we would just need like 50k vengeance to see a 60k hit.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

I usually have around 150k AP when tanking 25H, so 75% of that is 112500. Not bad damage. I have more like 300-350k AP on Mel'jarak, so that would be 262500 damage, times 6 = 1.6M

[Deleted]

That is actually a sick dps increase.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

15 RPPM means 15*1.2 (20% haste) stacks per minute, which is = 3.6 strikes per minute @120k damage each, or 436000 per 60 seconds, or 7200 damage per second on average.

[Malthanis]

15 RPPM means 15*1.2 (20% haste) stacks per minute, which is = 3.6 strikes per minute @120k damage each, or 436000 per 60 seconds, or 7200 damage per second on average.

Talk like that is making miss Reckoning more and more.

But I'll agree, I'm probably going to end up taking this over the "tank" meta. It's just too much damage to pass up.

[Deleted]

Talk like that is making miss Reckoning more and more.

But I'll agree, I'm probably going to end up taking this over the "tank" meta. It's just too much damage to pass up.

And they are likely going to put in some sort of smartfix that'll make it useless for tanks. I think we're reaching a point where the line between tanks and DPS are becoming bit too blurried. I think that tank DPS being an important and viable part of meeting certain enrage timers and so on is a good thing, but i don't think the developers like where this is heading. And neither do i to be honest, i would like to see traditional tanking stats like dodge and parry have some kind of interesting effect on our DPS, and additionally i would like to see tank damage from bosses tuned better across the board so that neglecting something like the tank meta actually hurts. (which would mean more vengeance=DPS anyway)

Maybe making it reduce magical damage aswell would help, seeing how prot paladins have got the physical part pretty much covered with how we're designed. Ultimately i don't like the lack of control when it comes to defense. While it is "chance on being hit" instead of "chance on hit" it can effectively proc 10/10 times right before a part with no physical damage over the course of an attempt.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

How about implementing the "deflect" mechanic as part of dodge and parry?

"When an enemy attempts to cast a spell at you, your Parry and Dodge chances added up grant you the same chance to deflect the spell, reducing its damage by x%"

[Deleted]

And they are likely going to put in some sort of smartfix that'll make it useless for tanks. I think we're reaching a point where the line between tanks and DPS are becoming bit too blurried. I think that tank DPS being an important and viable part of meeting certain enrage timers and so on is a good thing, but i don't think the developers like where this is heading. And neither do i to be honest, i would like to see traditional tanking stats like dodge and parry have some kind of interesting effect on our DPS, and additionally i would like to see tank damage from bosses tuned better across the board so that neglecting something like the tank meta actually hurts. (which would mean more vengeance=DPS anyway)

Where asother tanks, like me, would like to see stats like dodge and parry removed (strength parry remain).
Devs to start developing smarter set bonuses, trinkets and in this case meta gems so that tanks actually want them
Bosses tank damage output increased so that tanking actually is an issue.

[Killerfrosch]

Hey there,

im somewhat new to prot pally tanking, just rerolled from guardian druid.

I actually go for hit/exp and then haste. My simple question is, in 5.2 are there any changes back from haste to another stat? I read the patchnotes but couldnt find a hint, that there are some changes.

Sorry, my prot pally knowlegde is really bad actually, but our setup favours a pally over a druid so i changed my class.

Would be very nice, if someone can shortly answer my question

[Deleted]

Hey there,

im somewhat new to prot pally tanking, just rerolled from guardian druid.

Short answer would be no. Keep on hasting.

[Deleted]

Where asother tanks, like me, would like to see stats like dodge and parry removed (strength parry remain).
Devs to start developing smarter set bonuses, trinkets and in this case meta gems so that tanks actually want them
Bosses tank damage output increased so that tanking actually is an issue.

That'd work too, i don't care much either way if they remove it or manage to make it interesting. But yeah, boss tank damage, especially on 10-man needs to increase on heroic. That was just painfully obvious this tier.

[Deleted]

I think that the 'new' system of tanks being an active part of the raid dps is much better than the old one. Tanks are actually integrated in the raid group and needs to perform well now. We are not just meat bags. If we just go over the last couple of expansion.

Wrath: Get as much stamina and armor as you can. Secondary stats does not matter for shit except block value on some unique fights (anub'arak 25hc hello).
Getting your gear meant nothing except more stamina, bigger meat wall. Tanking was dull and boring. It was basically, keep aggro and keep positioning.

Cata: Tanking was actually in a good spot here in the start of the expansion. We had the goal to acheive block cap. Which was a fun journey for a lot of us. Getting an item felt something. "Yay I got closer to the block cap!".
The drawback of course was, well, block cap. Having one forced goal to reach and before reaching that goal you were kinda weak. Also, even though it felt more fun, it was still kinda 1 route to rule them all. Not that much choice. I believe that the actual fights atleast in T11 was balanced better for tanks. Tank damage was a threat and we had to play properly. A lot of fights actively incorporated tanks and we had to do a lot of shit to do the best we can.
As the expansion went on, we reached the block cap easily, and it all just became the old get more stamina, be a meat wall, profit. T12 and T13 fights was kinda boring from tank PoV, not as well designed as T11.

MoP: Active choice between survivability or damage output. Tank damage actually a big part of raid damage especially in 10's. Tanks need perform well in terms of dps.
Active mitigation arguably makes tanking more "skill requiring", however I think that the T14 boss fights was very badly designed for tanks. If we had active mitigation in T11, that would have been another story
The biggest problem in T11, especially in 10's, have been the lack of threat that bosses pose to tanks. Making the survivability vs damage output a no brainer.'


All expansions:
One thing that I believe is that blizzard never understands what tanks want, and why. Feels like our set bonuses are often very badly designed, or insanely OP, there is no middle ground. They are very poor at designing tank only stuff for us, like the meta gem. They design horrible trinkets etc. The question is maybe, do the tanks even understand what they want themselves?

Dodge and parry has always been undesirable, in all expansions. In wrath, they were simply the best we had. In cata, they just served purpose to fill up the CTC, though CTC was best reached with mastery to get more stamina.

Dodge and parry has just always been that ugly drunk chick that you pick up just before the bar closes.
A last resort, the best available at the time, though they have never been desired.

If you ask me, I believe the old systems are the more flawed. Dodge and parry just does not work well. Tanks do not want RNG, blizzard needs to understand this. TDR does not matter. The new system is a lot better because tanks get a more important role.

The best way that I believe tanks to take in terms of design.
Bosses should be designed more like T11 for tanks, a lot more active decisions, movement, positioning, insane tank damage, etc. Fights were just more interactive.
Stay the way it is with active mitigaiton, tanks damage output etc.
Dodge and parry removed, maybe replaced with other stats.
Either remove dodge and parry and have dps and tanks share gear.
Or if they feel inclined to still have tank gear, maybe block and block value would be interesting instead? Not perfect but would be better than dodge and parry.
Better designed set bonuses and trinkets.

[Malthanis]

Does anybody else miss the damage-focused 2-piece set bonuses? I enjoyed the +fire damage on the T12 set. With the larger focus on tank DPS output, maybe they could go back to that particular design standard to highlight the duality of a tank's responsibilities. Obviously, they'd still have the DPS bonus as the 2-piece, because it puts less emphasis on it, with the major defensive bonus as the 4-piece.

[Nairobi]

My 60k estimation was based on 1) 10man vengeance levels, 2) t14 style damage/veng levels on non-gimmick fights, and 3) normal modes. Obviously myself and many of you do not adhere to all of these parameters, but I wanted to give an estimate on the low side, rather than high side.

----

I miss block value a lot Playing a warrior in Vanilla, I loved the on-use block value trinket from Sapphiron and the block librams in ZG, allowed me to do old content and take zero damage, as well as scaled up shield slam. Was fun too, in PVP, popping Sapph trinket and 2-shotting cloth with slams. It really helped take the edge off during AOE tanking (Gothik) or fast hitting bosses (Patchwerk), and was a visceral upgrade, as you SAW the larger blocks.

At any rate, I doubt we'll see its return since the advent of DK tanks and the fact that they want homogeneity in "tank gear", such that all things need to be usable by all tanks for some reason. Hence, we get that shitty dodge trinket in t15.

They just need to bite the bullet and remove "traditional" tank plate; allow STR to give parry, maybe even at an increased rate, similar to AGI-> Dodge conversion for leather tanks. Tank plate is archaic and dated, and avoided by Prot pal and a significant portion of DKs who favor accuracy/mastery from DPS or hybrid itemization.

Or, they can make tank damage intake meaningful again. The ONLY time this tier that I had a tight-butthole moment was HC Empress on windblades, which was fun and refreshing from the traditional monotony of just trying to push out DPS since I was in no danger. That said, I never did get to do H Sha (sadface) to experience the dread thrash and N+A, but I can imagine that's more about timing than pure throughput. Making tank damage meaningful MAY see a shift back to preference of "tank" set bonuses at least, but we'd still be avoiding avoidance in favor of haste/mastery for ShotR coverage.

I dunno, the days of the holy trinity are drawing close to an end in this era of gaming. Pure DPS spec's are healing for more than hybrids, tanks are doing more DPS than actual DPS classes and foregoing tank stats, and healers are damn near tanks in PVP.

It feels like I'm taking crazy pills! /Mugatu