[MoP] Protection Paladin Guide

[itsyaboy]

Has anyone else experienced ji-kun's rising winds acting the same as ardent defender? I am 100% certain of one instance where it brought me back from the dead so I suspect that it wasn't the first/only time.

we didn't log when it happened sadly but on heroic horridon it was like:

horridon hits you for 500,000, (50,000) absorbed, (5000) overkill.
ji-kun rising wind's heals you for 40,000.

I then went on to live for about 30 seconds before I died for real anyway.

if it works like AD it's definitely the best trinket choice.

[Theck]

Not to nitpick about %'s though...but I'm going to. 8% haste in your example is actuall more than 8% dps increase, in practice. It's 8% more melee damage, for sure, but the effect on things via SoB yields higher returns, since HoPo generation goes up (as well as HoPo spending, via ShotR), CD goes down, and items that function off of RPPM (like trinkets, meta gem) increase with haste. Synergistically, youre looking more at 10-12% damage increase for that 8% (as well as associated healing and ShotR uptime). Further, I'm usually ~12-15% of the raid's damage, so upping that is more on the lines of 1.5% overall damage for the RAID, by swapping gems. Certainly hefty for 9% less stam, if you can afford to.

That math looks awfully suspect.

First, 8% haste is actually a fairly linear increase. It's a little more than an 8% increase to melee swing damage because of the multiplicative 10% melee attack speed buff. However an 8% haste increase is an 8% increase for SoB, which translates to 8% more ability usage, which means it should be exactly 8% more DPS, including SotR (because that will go up exactly 8% as well thanks to 8% more holy power generation). The increase to RPPM effects will also be about 8% uptime, which will give a (very) small nonlinearity, but it's small enough that we can safely ignore it.

So while melee DPS will go up by ~8.8%, ability DPS will go up exactly 8%. I can test this in my MATLAB DPS sims. Going from a sample set that has 6.35% haste to one that has 14.86% haste (an 8% increase, 1.0635*1.08=1.1486) brings us up from 99928 to 107881 DPS, an incease of 7953, or 7953/99928=7.96%.

Second, that's a multiplicative 8% haste. But adding 8% haste from rating is a linear increase. Going from 22% to 30% haste is an increase of 8%, but it's only a ~6.6% DPS increase (1.30/1.22=1.0656, or 6.56%).

So in fact, increasing your haste by 8% in the traditional sense (i.e. linearly, via +8% haste rating) is identically less than an 8% DPS increase unless you're starting with 0% haste.

[Meanor]

So in fact, increasing your haste by 8% in the traditional sense (i.e. linearly, via +8% haste rating) is identically less than an 8% DPS increase unless you're starting with 0% haste.

Speaking of prot DPS, if we completely ignore the survivability aspect is there any kind of stat weight list (or an article of yours that you can refer me to) strictly for prot DPS? How do the other stats hold against haste in this scenario?

[Nairobi]

Has anyone else experienced ji-kun's rising winds acting the same as ardent defender? I am 100% certain of one instance where it brought me back from the dead so I suspect that it wasn't the first/only time.

we didn't log when it happened sadly but on heroic horridon it was like:

horridon hits you for 500,000, (50,000) absorbed, (5000) overkill.
ji-kun rising wind's heals you for 40,000.

I then went on to live for about 30 seconds before I died for real anyway.

if it works like AD it's definitely the best trinket choice.

Never have I once seen that, ever. In fact, it's been exactly the opposite, wherein if an attack took me from 31% to dead, it didn't proc at all. Which is why I benched it. If you an try and replicate it, that'd be awesome.

That math looks awfully suspect.

So in fact, increasing your haste by 8% in the traditional sense (i.e. linearly, via +8% haste rating) is identically less than an 8% DPS increase unless you're starting with 0% haste.

Interesting, so is that 8%:7.96% a linear rule too then? I guess I was trying too hard to factor in ability weights in damage contribution based on normal glyphs and breakdowns, and accounted for ShotR twice via SOB. Which, consequently, would give a ~12% increase (or 50% over the 8% you're simming).

Oops. Good catch.

I will still swear by it as nonlinear for RPPM purposes, esp given the nature of my gear choices (for DPS as prot).

[Theck]

Interesting, so is that 8%:7.96% a linear rule too then? I guess I was trying too hard to factor in ability weights in damage contribution based on normal glyphs and breakdowns, and accounted for ShotR twice via SOB. Which, consequently, would give a ~12% increase (or 50% over the 8% you're simming).

Oops. Good catch.

I will still swear by it as nonlinear for RPPM purposes, esp given the nature of my gear choices (for DPS as prot).

The 8%:7.96% is just rounding/discretization error. That's around the error limit of the FSM code. The point is that if you multiply your haste by a factor of 1.08 (8%), your DPS goes up by a factor of 1.08 (8%). But increasing your haste percentage doesn't work the same way, as it's a linear measure. If you increase your haste from 0% (1.00) to 8% (1.08), you get an 8% increase in DPS. But going from 8% to 16% (1.08 to 1.16) is a smaller increase, and it naturally diminishes as you go further.

RPPM effects are nonlinear, but very very weakly so. Remember that haste is included in the RPPM calculation specifically because the proc triggers are haste-normalized (i.e., attacking twice as fast does not grant you any more procs, on average). It doesn't double-dip.

[Nillo]

On the topic of nonlinear rppm and haste:
Does anyone have any input on whether the agi trinket from primordius is good for prot?

[Deleted]

Speaking of prot DPS, if we completely ignore the survivability aspect is there any kind of stat weight list (or an article of yours that you can refer me to) strictly for prot DPS? How do the other stats hold against haste in this scenario?

It's all in Theck's matlab thread on maintankadin.com:

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.c...hp?f=6&t=32805

Specifically, look at section #6 on stat weights. Most of the survivability calculations and discussion is on Sacred Duty, but the matlab thread has the dps calculations and stat weights stuff.

[Deleted]

On the topic of nonlinear rppm and haste:
Does anyone have any input on whether the agi trinket from primordius is good for prot?

unlikely. the AGI is pretty much wasted (we no longer get dodge from it, we don't get armor from it anymore and the crit is just a minor DPS increase), and the haste has 3.3 RPPM. players are reporting a very low uptime of high stack counts. it's unreliable: you don't know when you're going to have it, you don't know how much you're going to have, and you don't know how long you're going to have it. for tanks, reliability is everything: if something is unreliable, at best it's going to proc when you don't need it. at worst it won't proc when you need it to survive.

---------- Post added 2013-04-29 at 04:13 PM ----------

The 8%:7.96% is just rounding/discretization error. That's around the error limit of the FSM code. The point is that if you multiply your haste by a factor of 1.08 (8%), your DPS goes up by a factor of 1.08 (8%). But increasing your haste percentage doesn't work the same way, as it's a linear measure. If you increase your haste from 0% (1.00) to 8% (1.08), you get an 8% increase in DPS. But going from 8% to 16% (1.08 to 1.16) is a smaller increase, and it naturally diminishes as you go further.

RPPM effects are nonlinear, but very very weakly so. Remember that haste is included in the RPPM calculation specifically because the proc triggers are haste-normalized (i.e., attacking twice as fast does not grant you any more procs, on average). It doesn't double-dip.

for the sake of clarity, could you sim a 40% haste increase from 1.00 to 1.40 in 8% increments to see how it affects both survival and DPS? just account for rating, since no pure haste buffs are always up. or if you don't have time, how could I do that myself?

[Xs]

On the topic of nonlinear rppm and haste:
Does anyone have any input on whether the agi trinket from primordius is good for prot?

Haste procs are meh, you want static Haste, better off with the Str proc trinkets

[fled]

Ok Noob question here, just logged in to the kingslayer pally for the first time since we were farming Icrcrown. Trying out the pally (and monk as well). I just wanted to know, why is HOTR not in the rotation? Do we not weakening blows on enemies? THanks in advance.

[Nairobi]

HotR is replaced by CS, as it hits harder, for ST tanking. HotR should be used to keep up WB, but that is a given; feel free to work it in every <30 seconds, unless your co-tank puts it up passively (pretty much every class but protpal).

HotR is still the go-to for MT tanking, pulling ahead on damage overall at 3+ targets (IIRC). But, honestly, using at 2+ is fine as well.

[celinamuna]

One thing to remember is that unless i remember things wrong is that it hits the main target for less dmg than the other ones hit by cleave component.
And personally i find it to be fairly meh and not worth using unless there's 4(or more) targets.

[Deleted]

HotR is replaced by CS, as it hits harder, for ST tanking. HotR should be used to keep up WB, but that is a given; feel free to work it in every <30 seconds, unless your co-tank puts it up passively (pretty much every class but protpal).

that's not true.

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=115798#comments:id=1706463

only DKs get it automatically through blood plague. all 4 other tanks need to use an AoE skill solely for applying it, even on single target. it's just how tanking works at the moment. and warriors, DKs and druids also don't get more from it if they cast it more than is needed to apply weakened blows or in the case of druids to apply their DoT. monks get more chi from it so they use it on CD.

[Nairobi]

that's not true.

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=115798#comments:id=1706463

only DKs get it automatically through blood plague. all 4 other tanks need to use an AoE skill solely for applying it, even on single target. it's just how tanking works at the moment. and warriors, DKs and druids also don't get more from it if they cast it more than is needed to apply weakened blows or in the case of druids to apply their DoT. monks get more chi from it so they use it on CD.

Not really sure what you're saying here, as you start off saying that "no, all tanks have to do it and it sucks for them" then end up saying "well 3 of the 5 tanks really kinda do it passively"

Keg Smash is the Monks hardest hitting ability, best chi generator, and used on cooldown.
Thrash is considered rotational and part of the Guardian priority to keep the DOT up.
DK already mentioned, but is passive 100%.

T-clap for warrior's I'll admit is not ideal, as it costs rage that could otherwise go to something else. So yes, if your OT is a warrior, you should be using HotR every 30 sec. If your OT is anything else, you can skip it.

[Sierra85]

Haste procs are meh, you want static Haste, better off with the Str proc trinkets

is this considered the norm? as i may have to change things up...

[britishbubba]

Not really sure what you're saying here, as you start off saying that "no, all tanks have to do it and it sucks for them" then end up saying "well 3 of the 5 tanks really kinda do it passively"

Keg Smash is the Monks hardest hitting ability, best chi generator, and used on cooldown.
Thrash is considered rotational and part of the Guardian priority to keep the DOT up.
DK already mentioned, but is passive 100%.

T-clap for warrior's I'll admit is not ideal, as it costs rage that could otherwise go to something else. So yes, if your OT is a warrior, you should be using HotR every 30 sec. If your OT is anything else, you can skip it.

I don't think T-clap costs rage for prots anymore. Pretty sure it's just a 6 second CD now. would hop on my warrior to check, but damn Tuesday maintenance.

EDIT: http://www.wowhead.com/spell=29144 < Reduces the cost of T-clap by 100% for prot. Still not really automatic for warriors since it's usually just better to spam Devastate to reset the CD on Shield slam, but unlike Paladins, you're not really trying off something like CS for HoTR since T-clap doesn't share a CD with anything. That and if there's less than like a 2 second CD on SS you might as well T-clap since devastate resetting the CD on SS would be kinda pointless when it would be off CD next GCD anyway.

[Nairobi]

is this considered the norm? as i may have to change things up...

Yes, all things equal, it's far better to have static haste with a STR proc than STR with a Haste proc (for example). If you could have something like Haste with a Haste proc (Yo dawg...) then maybe, but as the last item like that was in Borean Tundra quest rewards, it's safe to ignore.

I don't think T-clap costs rage for prots anymore. Pretty sure it's just a 6 second CD now. would hop on my warrior to check, but damn Tuesday maintenance.

You may be right, I know it's changed a lot. I thought that it GAVE rage, frankly. But in looking at the wowhead tooltip it still listed it as 20 rage to use.

[Nillo]

Yes, all things equal, it's far better to have static haste with a STR proc than STR with a Haste proc (for example). If you could have something like Haste with a Haste proc (Yo dawg...) then maybe, but as the last item like that was in Borean Tundra quest rewards, it's safe to ignore.

Well I agree that having procs that work by the old 10 sec duration , 45 sec icd model is hardly optimal because the uptimes would have to align with high damage taken, but with a trinket like the agi one from primordius the up/downtimes seem to mostly be in the 10sec area which in my opinion is consistent enough for it to be useful. What I was wondering is if the haste you gain from that proc would be enough to make up for the wasted agility at least if you compare it to some of the less useful trinkets.

[zloitima]

about the Weakened Blows
if u have shaman dpsing same target, u don't need to maintain it yourself, as Earth Shock applies it. ofc it's always best to set up weak aura to track it.

[Nairobi]

Well I agree that having procs that work by the old 10 sec duration , 45 sec icd model is hardly optimal because the uptimes would have to align with high damage taken, but with a trinket like the agi one from primordius the up/downtimes seem to mostly be in the 10sec area which in my opinion is consistent enough for it to be useful. What I was wondering is if the haste you gain from that proc would be enough to make up for the wasted agility at least if you compare it to some of the less useful trinkets.

The agi primordius trink is really very, very lackluster. You should average around 1-1.5 stacks I believe based on the RPPM calcs done for specs designed to use it, meaning that you're essentially using a trinket that has a low amount of passive haste and zero other benefit. You'd be better served getting the SPA rep trinket and reforging to haste. The 10:45 procs are not as bad as you may think, and actually contribute more at low dmg intervals than high (unless you're talking about the parry from STR). However, even if you ARE talking about the parry, that is a "free" benefit from the STR, whereas tha agi trinket would give dodge to it's user but gives none to us.

Obviously not everyone can pick and choose trinkets, and RNG is RNG with what drops/rolls, but all things equal I'd still use a LSFO over the agi trinket myself.