[MoP] Protection Paladin Guide

[Nillo]

Bah.... if that's qualifies as a personal attack i'm glad i never directly address other posters in those types of discussions, instead just thinking out loud.

Reminds me of when I got banned for calling an obvious troll a troll.

[celinamuna]

Reminds me of when I got banned for calling an obvious troll a troll.

Basically how most of the forum behaves in those kinds of threads :
http://i.imgur.com/X3syHee.gif

[Deleted]

It's a trend! I just got unbanned today :P.

Anyway, I think this is why he got banned:

I guess he couldn't resist the influx of ... special people... in this forum since 5.3 hit live. So many stupid shit going about, specially PvP, that you just want to tell half the posters in there to go get fucked by a pony.

I can understand him. Very hard to resist posting in these forums.

Also yes it is very likely that is the post he got banned for aswell as that the ban lifts in 3 days.

On the topic of paladins. The 4p PVP seems fairly attractive to me come T16. If the 4p remains unchanged, as it should, I will really consider it as it adds about 15% uptime on SotR. I think that is worth the loss in stats.

[Nairobi]

On the topic of paladins. The 4p PVP seems fairly attractive to me come T16. If the 4p remains unchanged, as it should, I will really consider it as it adds about 15% uptime on SotR. I think that is worth the loss in stats.

Likely still not. The pure loss of item level stats, especially armor/stam are a huge blow against it. We don't know (for sure) what next tier ilvl is going to be, but for this tier:
Tyranical = 496
Heroic = 535 (541 TF, 543 2/2, 549 TF 2/2)
Just looking at HC only, that's 39 ilvl over the PVP gear: 3 whole tiers worth of stats, stam, armor, etc.

Add in that there are only 1 (2?) pieces with native haste on them and that further degrades their value.

Additionally, they have fewer sockets per piece, with less helpful boni.

Finally, not that I have faith in Blizz, but we may yet see 1) useful tier set boni and/or 2) proper itemization on Prot tier. Even if we don't, the ret tier and/or off-pieces will still remain the most sought after.

PVP gear is a great stopgap to get you in the door, but it is not a useful endgame tool. 1 HoPo per 8 sec gives ~7.5 HoPo/min, meaning that you get 2.5 more ShotR casts per minute. That's one every 25 seconds, for the cost of a metric shitton of stats and item level. If the ilvl inflation trend continues in t16, we will see BIS gear putting us at 21k+ haste (50% cap), which is my goal anyway, at which point the extra "free casts" are een further degraded in value since ShotR is basically permanent at that point.

It's a great way to get started, but ditch it for real gear ASAP.

[Deleted]

To be completely honest, I am rather sure that the 4p is strong enough to outweigh those extra stats. It has the equivelent worth of about 15000 haste rating in terms of HoPo regen. That is a lot of weight. Especially considering that haste gets worth more and more the more you get. (since going from 50% to 60% uptime is worth less than going from 60% to 70%)

[Nairobi]

Even if we weren't getting the Vengeance cap in 5.4, which we will be, I don't see how you can say that the "haste value", not even actual haste, is worth using gear that is essentially 3 tiers behind AND poorly itemized in most cases. Add in the extra stam from PVE gear to raise the Veng ceiling for more dps, and that's another strike against the PVP set.

Haste has more benefits than simply HoPo regen. Specifically, the amount of haste lost going from HC PVE gear to current tier PVP gear is ~ 2500 haste (depending on which 4 pieces you swap out). Sure, you may pick up the "haste effect" of the extra HoPo/8sec, but you lose out on:
Faster/more melee
Faster/more SOI
Faster GCD
More SoB CD reduction on everything

Again, the PVP gear is 3 tiers behind, more poorly itemized (many pieces have no haste, most have crit) and with fewer sockets and poor socket bonuses.

I'm not saying the PVP bonus is bad, but I can't see how with the coming gear levels it will be able to compete. Especially considering that the PVP ilvl ceiling (aka next season conq ilvl) will be going up by ~1 tier, while we will see PVE gear gaining ~2-3 tiers over current. If/when we can get to the 50% cap of haste (next tier), extra/more ShotR will not be worth as much as more haste and pure stats.

[Deleted]

I'm not saying the PVP bonus is bad, but I can't see how with the coming gear levels it will be able to compete. Especially considering that the PVP ilvl ceiling (aka next season conq ilvl) will be going up by ~1 tier, while we will see PVE gear gaining ~2-3 tiers over current. If/when we can get to the 50% cap of haste (next tier), extra/more ShotR will not be worth as much as more haste and pure stats.

Not really saying it is the "OMG BIS!". Saying it can be useful to have in your bags and on some fights depending how they are desigend can turn out to be superior.

I do not think it should be completely overlooked. You can almost reach 100% SotR uptime, now that would be something. Also very possible to reach 100% effective SotR uptime.

Being able to reach about 95-100% effective SotR uptime would be invaluable. I would gladly trade some self HPS, a bit of HP and armor for that.

[Nairobi]

Not really saying it is the "OMG BIS!". Saying it can be useful to have in your bags and on some fights depending how they are desigend can turn out to be superior.

Hmm, I guess I read too much into your comment:

To be completely honest, I am rather sure that the 4p is strong enough to outweigh those extra stats. It has the equivelent worth of about 15000 haste rating in terms of HoPo regen. That is a lot of weight. Especially considering that haste gets worth more and more the more you get. (since going from 50% to 60% uptime is worth less than going from 60% to 70%)

Which made it sound like the 4p alone, to you, was enough to justify/outweigh having the massive stat loss.

I suppose anything is possible, in terms of what is/is not going to be the most useful, we'll know more heading into t16.

I do not think it should be completely overlooked. You can almost reach 100% SotR uptime, now that would be something. Also very possible to reach 100% effective SotR uptime.

Being able to reach about 95-100% effective SotR uptime would be invaluable. I would gladly trade some self HPS, a bit of HP and armor for that.

Agreed that it would be great, and with the path that ilvl inflation is taking us, we are looking at 100% uptime by the end of next tier using full haste. And I guess that was my point/concern; that it will/should already be possible next tier to hit that 95-100% mark with PVE gear, which makes the PVP bonus a bit...overkill for ShotR while selling other stats short. BUT, that of course assumes that you have near-BIS PVE gear, which is not realistic for most people.

Again, it all depends on the fights as well. Who knows? We may see some insanely heavy magic damage fights, to try and reign in the "OMG PALA OP" train, at which point 100% ShotR uptime means fuck-all. Blizz does love to troll.

Either way, based on your post here, I agree in the sense that it's a great "workaround" for those stuck with low-haste or entry level gear to get their HoPo/min up.

[Deleted]

The theoretical max uptime not counting AS procs is 74% at 50% haste with DP specced. Now you have some RNG. But counting AS procs we can say about 73-83% should be possible with 50% haste and DP. Luck could push it either way.

So not really sure that 100% sotr is psosible without pvp 4p. PvP 4p adds another 14-17% uptime which would make that 87-100% uptime with pvp 4p and 50% haste. But that would for sure grant you 100% uptime when actually needed if you can bank up HoPo. (Like if you start wiht 5 HoPo you can probably keep 100% uptime for over a minute)

[Nairobi]

You sure about that? There are many logs floating around on here with uptimes in the 70%+ range already, with those users in the 15-17k haste range. I can't think that GCAS procs and luck sway it THAT much.

I personally hover around 65-70%, mainly due to my devotion to HA over DP, and that's with less than 17k haste.

I thought you had posted some stuff prior where you had 70%+ and I know you are short of 50% haste. No?

[Deleted]

I thought you had posted some stuff prior where you had 70%+ and I know you are short of 50% haste. No?

Each one had more DP procs than average

It is all very simple math. At 50% haste. Your hopo regen without AS is 1/3 + 1/4.5 or 0.5555555.
DP increases your SotR uptime by 33% which put the theoretical max (average) uptime at 74%. Without AS ofc.

Edit: Checking some logs for a ToT clear. GC procs made up for about 5% ( a bit less ) uptime over the entire raid, ranging between 3-7% depending on the boss, but lets say 5%. That pushes SotR uptime to about 79% +-5% depending on luck is a theoretical max.

[Nairobi]

I'll withhold judgement til we see the fights and set boni, but even so, 80% uptime from hastecap alone is nothing to sneeze at. It then (to me, anyway) becomes more of a preference of additional phys redux vs. additional throughput.

And I thought we all knew what side you were on!

[Deleted]

I'll withhold judgement til we see the fights and set boni, but even so, 80% uptime from hastecap alone is nothing to sneeze at. It then (to me, anyway) becomes more of a preference of additional phys redux vs. additional throughput.

And I thought we all knew what side you were on!

It depends on the fight really. To me mostly pushing to that 100% uptime is an interesting thought. It kinda feels like getting CTC capped in Cata.

I very much prefer additional phys redux over uptime usually. But here I will make an exception on some fights.

On some fights 100% uptime would be a complete beast.

[Nairobi]

If nothing else, it would allow/encourage sit-tanking the entire fight, given you'd have a perma-wall up. Hellooooo Vengeance.

OWAIT cap.

[Nillo]

How do people do that sit thing anyway?
I tried it a few times and found pressing sit while keeping up the regular rotation was a pain in the ass.

[celinamuna]

How do people do that sit thing anyway?
I tried it a few times and found pressing sit while keeping up the regular rotation was a pain in the ass.

Macro......

[pld]

How do people do that sit thing anyway?
I tried it a few times and found pressing sit while keeping up the regular rotation was a pain in the ass.

Considering you can't attack while sitting, I imagine you wait for a high damage spell (ex. Horridon's Triple Puncture) and time your /sit macro for that. You lose some uptime doing this, but the massive amount of Vengeance you get makes up for that.

[Nillo]

Macro......

Well that's still a button you need to press/not press depending on the damage taken.

---------- Post added 2013-05-30 at 05:05 PM ----------

Considering you can't attack while sitting, I imagine you wait for a high damage spell (ex. Horridon's Triple Puncture) and time your /sit macro for that. You lose some uptime doing this, but the massive amount of Vengeance you get makes up for that.

Can triple puncture even crit?

[celinamuna]

Well that's still a button you need to press/not press depending on the damage taken.

---------- Post added 2013-05-30 at 05:05 PM ----------



Can triple puncture even crit?

It is, but it isn't a "need to always press button" i'd say it's highly situation for moments when you know that you can afford the extra damage taken.
(Plus i generally have an extra button or 2 keybinded for when i swap in speed of light / hand of purity)

And haven't ever tested with triple puncture, but it probably can.

[Nillo]

It is, but it isn't a "need to always press button" i'd say it's highly situation for moments when you know that you can afford the extra damage taken.

Wat?
What kind of macro are you talking about anyway? because I can't figure out what you're talking about