[MoP] Protection Paladin Guide

[Aceshigh]

Haste is better at smoothening a static damage in-take (no boss ever). Stamina is better for smoothening an unpredictable dynamic damage in-take and dynamic magic damage in-take. Mastery is better as smoothening predictable dynamic melee damage in-take.




While this is possible, maintaining 100% uptime will still be very hard. Only the top 1-2% of raiding paladins will be able to do it. Those players that are now ranking consistantly in the top 100's. It is not a free 100% uptime exactly. Do not really think blizzard is gonna do some massive change to SotR mid 5.4
Maybe a small nerf in 5.5 but we can live with that.

---------- Post added 2013-06-12 at 09:32 AM ----------



Stats on T15 still sucks, so not even a question for me about preferring T16 off-set/ret pieces.
I think the T10 2p is more interesting than the T15 2p.

If there is even a possibility of keeping 100% uptime, regardless of 2% of paladins being able to do it, blizzard won't let it happen. The masses will qq more about an "unhittable" tank than they ever did about our dps, battle healer healing and ability to immune mechanics/clear debuffs/solo tank easily. I know it won't be free uptime, and I know it requires better than average play to make full effect of the bonus as is, but I guarantee it will not stand if ANYONE is keeping 100% uptime on SoTR.

[Nairobi]

Guys.
Why do we take haste again? I think we take it for increasing uptime of SotR, right?
If the 2pc bonus makes us able to achieve a way higher uptime of SotR - if we can play it correctly^^ - why the hell would we even need haste? if firefly is roughly correct with his math, I'm pretty sure there won't be a problem to drop a few k of haste. maybe starting with the 4 tier items for the bonus, plus replacing all haste gems with mastery or stamina.
if doing this still qualifies for 100% uptime of sotr, mastery becomes even stronger. at least for physical damage. holy cow.

edit:
for the stats on the tier piece:

chest - dodge parry
hands - dodge expertise
legs - parry hit
head - expertise mastery
shoulders - hit mastery

so, offset chest it is, and if you are only going for 2 piece, you take head n shoulders.

Yeah....no. That's not at all "the reason" we take haste. Haste boosts our SS and SOI power (meaning our self heals/absorbs), reduces our ability CD and GCDs, increases attack speed, AND increases SHotR uptime. Dropping 3-4k of haste for any reason is pretty foolish, and shooting yourself in the foot before you attempt to run the race. The 4 tier items (as you linked, though they appear to be placeholder replicas of this tier) are utterly crap itemized. Head/Shoulders are passable, but with how underwhelming the 4pc is versus how much haste/accuracy you lose, there is no reason to take more than 2pcs as currently listed.

Also, Mastery is a great stat for reducing physical damage, but thus far in this expansion, Phys damage has never been threatening to any tank (if mechanics are followed). Stacking Mastery, unless you're over 50% haste already, is just reducing your smoothing and throughput. Replacing haste gems with stam gems is also a poor way to get stamina in; you're better off swapping trinkets around.

Because you're so OP that you don't really need to worry about survival, so you just stack dps stats. Haste gives better survival than crit, as a consolation prize, so you just favor that because why not?

Grumble grumble grumble.

But really, it is primarily for the dps. I think it's been shown pretty conclusively that other stats are better with smoothing and TDR, last I checked. Then again, 100% uptime on Shield Wall is pretty smooth...

Lol, made me chuckle. To be fair though, it is a pretty easy "gearing strategy" though...about on par with BDK (lulmastery). As above, the DPS is indeed a huge portion, but it's also our best "overall" smoothing stat, in terms of phys redux via ShotR uptime AND static heal/absorb boosts from SOI/SS. Also, TDR is nonimportant, but even if it was, avoidance will win that contest every time.

2pc t15 + 16 might be an interesting combo.
Too bad it looks like they're going to keep putting lots and lots of dodge/parry on set items /:

Holding judgement til we see real t16 stats, BUT I thought the exact same thing. We'd just have to hope that the t16 chest/hands/legs don't blow ass again, else I fear we'll be hard pressed to reach 50% haste.

Still, anyone that is skilled enough to track boss swing timers and time SotR accordingly with 100% success is probably good enough to have 100% uptime on SotR aswell with T15 2p.

This. This is important. Not every Joe-Blow will be able to even think about HOW to abuse the set bonii to end up with 90%+ uptimes, and even of the ones that DO posit the idea, only a minority will be able to make it work in practice. Even though I think you meant t16 (not 15) 2pc bonus in terms of SHotR contributions. At any rate, this is all great discussion on what is possible, but I don't think most people should have any illusion of being able to micromanage these buffs/bonii to make this a common occurrence while simultaneously handling their actual tank duties. Either way, we still need to see what the actual tier stats will be (hint: this is me STILL hoping they don't go live as posted currently...) I'm reeeeeally hoping for less D/P crap so as not to be shoehorned into head&shoulders again...

On that note, I got my shoulders for 2pc last night for shits-n-gigs, and am now 1%+ over hit cap Fking stuck with JinRohk chest, and Animus is being stingy! Oh well, ended up getting my cape and a HC TF LeiShen shield last night (looks badass! too bad it doesnt match the CM set...), so I guess it's not all bad.

edit: OH! AND I broke 20k Achiv pts finally!

[pld]

Grats on the 20k, geez. I don't think I even broke 10k yet. Also, now that I know you have the CM set, I'm beginning to harbor a little animosity towards you. Been trying to get a few buddies to tackle CMs, but our schedules never match up. I want to look like a blue bug too.


I noticed that I broke 40% haste raid buffed last night, and I'm only seeing 55% ShoR uptime. Granted, I really need to get better with my rotation (I have a bad habit of messing up my rotation when the fight gets all kerfuffled) but would 10% extra hate really help me bump up that ShoR uptime to ~70%?

I'm trying to decide if I can even think about a potential 90-100% uptime next tier.

[xebtria]

Yeah....no. That's not at all "the reason" we take haste. Haste boosts our SS and SOI power (meaning our self heals/absorbs)

Pretty sure it does not boost SS directly, it just reduces the time between ticks, effectively introducing some sort of soft cap per tick (which I don't know where they are, tbh). so it only boosts it when you bypass each cap, and it effectively does nothing afterwards - until you reach the next one. Am I wrong here?
and of SoI - yeah it increases the amount of ticks via

increases attack speed,

which I am pretty sure is the only thing the increased attack speed does, isn't it?

reduces our ability CD and GCDs [...] AND increases SHotR uptime

well basically the reduced ability and global CD actually IS what increases the SHotR uptime.

so, from my understanding, haste has some soft caps for SS ticks and a hard cap for Global Cooldown.
it increases ShoTR uptime by reducing ability and global CD.
and it increases the amount of ticks of SoI (only question is - what is a melee attack? white hits? melee abilities (CS/Hammer)? all abilities? nevertheless, there are no caps, this increases in all possible understandings of "melee attacks" linear with every point of haste).

IF I would have the T16 2 set bonus already and I'm skilled enough to easily get 100% uptime of ShoTR with it, and If I knew the soft caps for the SS ticks... I'd go max haste, and reach ... maybe ... 22k. so the next cap is 23k, and I have no chance to add another 1k haste, and the previous cap would be 20k. so I'd remove 2k haste (easily done via gems), and put them into mastery (or stamina). because I believe, that the extra stamina or mastery provides a bigger defensive benefit than the extra heals from SoI and the more DPS from more buttons being pushed would.

Soo... if I am still reaching 100% uptime with T16-2pc and that 2k less haste, this part of the argument (more buttons, higher uptime) simply renders invalid. If I am NOT reaching 100% anymore with that less haste, then ofc haste is more important, so I hope you see my point.

but then again, I get some upgrades, and now I AM able to reach the next cap, then haste here I come. the above only applies to go down the PREVIOUS cap IF I am not able to reach the NEXT cap.

other than this, of course, haste smoothes damage more than mastery does, but IF I already HAVE 100% SHotR uptime, it can't be smoothed any further with more haste. it is as smooth as it can get. and mastery then reduces the damage taken even further. And if you don't like mastery for whatever reason, you still can put it into stamina simply to increase your EH.

numbers, as always, are just made up to illustrate the PoV.

[Deleted]

There is no magical caps on ss, each point is worth just as much as the next, arguably when SS reaches 3/4.5 seconds are soft caps because of them becoming a multiplicant of boss swing timers. 22.5k haste is what you should shoot for, regardless of what.

[Deleted]

Pretty sure it does not boost SS directly, it just reduces the time between ticks, effectively introducing some sort of soft cap per tick (which I don't know where they are, tbh). so it only boosts it when you bypass each cap, and it effectively does nothing afterwards - until you reach the next one. Am I wrong here?
and of SoI - yeah it increases the amount of ticks via

which I am pretty sure is the only thing the increased attack speed does, isn't it?

well basically the reduced ability and global CD actually IS what increases the SHotR uptime.

so, from my understanding, haste has some soft caps for SS ticks and a hard cap for Global Cooldown.
it increases ShoTR uptime by reducing ability and global CD.
and it increases the amount of ticks of SoI (only question is - what is a melee attack? white hits? melee abilities (CS/Hammer)? all abilities? nevertheless, there are no caps, this increases in all possible understandings of "melee attacks" linear with every point of haste).

IF I would have the T16 2 set bonus already and I'm skilled enough to easily get 100% uptime of ShoTR with it, and If I knew the soft caps for the SS ticks... I'd go max haste, and reach ... maybe ... 22k. so the next cap is 23k, and I have no chance to add another 1k haste, and the previous cap would be 20k. so I'd remove 2k haste (easily done via gems), and put them into mastery (or stamina). because I believe, that the extra stamina or mastery provides a bigger defensive benefit than the extra heals from SoI and the more DPS from more buttons being pushed would.

Soo... if I am still reaching 100% uptime with T16-2pc and that 2k less haste, this part of the argument (more buttons, higher uptime) simply renders invalid. If I am NOT reaching 100% anymore with that less haste, then ofc haste is more important, so I hope you see my point.

but then again, I get some upgrades, and now I AM able to reach the next cap, then haste here I come. the above only applies to go down the PREVIOUS cap IF I am not able to reach the NEXT cap.

other than this, of course, haste smoothes damage more than mastery does, but IF I already HAVE 100% SHotR uptime, it can't be smoothed any further with more haste. it is as smooth as it can get. and mastery then reduces the damage taken even further. And if you don't like mastery for whatever reason, you still can put it into stamina simply to increase your EH.

numbers, as always, are just made up to illustrate the PoV.

Whilst you're right about SS having a theoritcal cap to it's usefulness, the amount of damage we take in content that matters (hc raid boss encounters) the SS will easily get absorbed with every melee hit which occurs (normall) every 1.5 secs, never mind all the other magic attacks/dots/shit on floor etc we take damage from, and as such in practise this "cap" is irrelevent.

---------- Post added 2013-06-12 at 02:51 PM ----------

There is no magical caps on ss, each point is worth just as much as the next, arguably when SS reaches 3/4.5 seconds are soft caps because of them becoming a multiplicant of boss swing timers. 22.5k haste is what you should shoot for, regardless of what.

I think what he was getting at is if your SS tics are short enough then you wont be taking enough damage between tics to fully use the shield before it gets reapplied. i think that's what he meant.

EDIT: actually re-reading what Xebtria said, he saying that the haste benefit to SS only comes in after hitting certain thresholds (which is wrong - extra "tics" only happen if you let SS expire before refreshing). so if you like you can ignore this post.

[xebtria]

so what does haste to SS?

it does NOT reduce the (big) buff's duration, this is 30 seconds, right?
so with 0 haste, you get 5 shields out of that 30 seconds (it procs every 6), and that duration is also 6 seconds, meaning, when the big buff wears off, you get the last proc (the first is after 6 seconds).
now you have some haste and the duration is 5.5 secs and the proc span is 5.5, making the 6th proc being made at the mark of 30.25 seconds. too bad this is 0.25 seconds too late. so add a little more, so that both are at 5.47, so the 6th proc is at the 29.9209 mark, right before the big one wears off. sooo... question being....

if you say, that every point of haste is worth as much as the next regarding sacred shield - where is the fallacy on my side here? because I don't see the reason why there should not be some sort of soft cap.

if you are right (and I have the feeling that you are, and will show me where I'm thinking the wrong way), this totally bursts my bubble of hast being able to be ... measured out, if one has the T16 2 pc and achieves 100% ShotR uptime with that.

also editing my part here: I guess I see that point I am wrong - letting run out SS. But I don't see the SS buff last like 40 seconds, so just taking a random guess from way back in my memory here - Using my theory of the "soft caps", I need to refresh SS after the theoretical last proc before the big buff runs out, correct?

edit: If I am - is there a possible trigger for a weak aura here?
* check - depending on the haste amount - if the next tick of SS would occur after the "Big" buff runs out
show icon 1 (e.g: normal SS icon)
* and if the big buff is missing completely
show icon 2 (e.g. a red SS icon, showing that I failed hard and let SS run out)

that would be nice. depending that my random guess from above is correct.

[Aceshigh]

edit: OH! AND I broke 20k Achiv pts finally!

Time to change that signature!

[Deleted]

so what does haste to SS?

it does NOT reduce the (big) buff's duration, this is 30 seconds, right?
so with 0 haste, you get 5 shields out of that 30 seconds (it procs every 6), and that duration is also 6 seconds, meaning, when the big buff wears off, you get the last proc (the first is after 6 seconds).
now you have some haste and the duration is 5.5 secs and the proc span is 5.5, making the 6th proc being made at the mark of 30.25 seconds. too bad this is 0.25 seconds too late. so add a little more, so that both are at 5.47, so the 6th proc is at the 29.9209 mark, right before the big one wears off. sooo... question being....

if you say, that every point of haste is worth as much as the next regarding sacred shield - where is the fallacy on my side here? because I don't see the reason why there should not be some sort of soft cap.

if you are right (and I have the feeling that you are, and will show me where I'm thinking the wrong way), this totally bursts my bubble of hast being able to be ... measured out, if one has the T16 2 pc and achieves 100% ShotR uptime with that.

also editing my part here: I guess I see that point I am wrong - letting run out SS. But I don't see the SS buff last like 40 seconds, so just taking a random guess from way back in my memory here - Using my theory of the "soft caps", I need to refresh SS after the theoretical last proc before the big buff runs out, correct?

edit: If I am - is there a possible trigger for a weak aura here?
* check - depending on the haste amount - if the next tick of SS would occur after the "Big" buff runs out
show icon 1 (e.g: normal SS icon)
* and if the big buff is missing completely
show icon 2 (e.g. a red SS icon, showing that I failed hard and let SS run out)

that would be nice. depending that my random guess from above is correct.

The important thing about haste and SS is the duration between when the absorb shield gets reapplied. The shorter this is the better, and each point of haste reduces this by a fixed % from the base 6 sec duration.

You should reapply SS before it falls off (unless you're taking no damage in which case it's a moo point) ideally when you have a significant jump up in vengence.

[Promdates]

so what does haste to SS?

With enough haste, the secondary (re: the bubble proc itself) of SS has a really small CD. I personally see mine somewhere around 3 seconds before it refreshes itself. So what that means is the remainder timer on the secondary ticks down to 2 seconds then refreshes back to up it's highest.

If you check your WoL log browser, do Aura Spell ID 65148. You can see how quickly it will refresh itself with higher levels of haste. The more haste you have, the more often it will proc, so the higher uptime you have, the more damage you can/will mitigate.

[Deleted]

so what does haste to SS?

Duration of SS is not a static 30 seconds. It can go between 28 to 32 seconds depending on your haste levels. If you SS have a tick time of 5.2 seconds, then SS becomes a 31.2 second buff.

However, this is only relevant if you do not reapply SS. If you keep reapplying SS, all this does not matter. Since you have SS up all the time, so if you have a duration of 5.0 or 5.1 seconds, having 5.0 is always benefitial as you get it 0.1 second faster each time. That is why each point matters as much. It does not matter if you go from 6.00 to 5.59 or 4.00 to 3.99, each point helps you.

[Nairobi]

As all have said (stupid busy day at work!), each point of haste (up to 21250, anyway) is just as good as the last for SoB and SS effectiveness.

My SS ticks occur around every 3.4 seconds (IIRC), but I also refresh often (perhaps too often sometimes) based on vengeance fluctuations and open globals. Each point of haste I get makes those ticks (for 150k+ sometimes!) occur faster/more often/closer together.

---------- Post added 2013-06-12 at 03:34 PM ----------

Oh, not sure if this slipped past anyone, but:

Vengeance gains from Critical Attacks have been halved.

RIP /sit

[Deleted]

Oh, not sure if this slipped past anyone, but:

Vengeance gains from Critical Attacks have been halved.

RIP /sit

good thing
/sit is the antithesis to good tanking imo

[Nairobi]

Probably, I just will miss the massive 200k+ SS ticks from sit-tanking HC Lei Shen.

I wish they'd ditch the vengeance gains from environmental damage 100%, too, if they're looking to refine the rules on what gives AP.

[Deleted]

Standing in fire though is perfectly fine!

[Nillo]

They could've just removed sit crits from pve - not like it serves any purpose anyway.

[Promdates]

(up to 22.5k, anyway

Is this supposed to be the 50% mark? Isn't haste 425 per 1%, which would be 21,250. I think you're using 450 as the 1% mark. (I just double checked my armory and the 425 matches up right...)

[Nairobi]

Is this supposed to be the 50% mark? Isn't haste 425 per 1%, which would be 21,250. I think you're using 450 as the 1% mark. (I just double checked my armory and the 425 matches up right...)

Errr, yeah. I knew it was some combination of 2, 5, and 0. But yes, 21250 (closer than we think!)

[Deleted]

Errr, yeah. I knew it was some combination of 2, 5, and 0. But yes, 21250 (closer than we think!)

you should aim to get 21250 achie poinst tbh - little job for you

[Nairobi]

you should aim to get 21250 achie poinst tbh - little job for you

Should be doable in 5.4, but harder to do now without any real desire to beg/borrow/steal into an 1800+ RBG team, and the fact that I do 2s/3s with my GF, I'm missing a good bit of PVP achivs Most every other "section" of achivs is 95%+ complete, just missing a few dozen PVP achivs, mainly the 100 wins for new BGs since grinding them is soooo tiring. But it'd get me "Khan", so maybe I'll do that now that raiding is down to 1day/week.