1. #3021
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    There is caring about your personal DPS, and then there is going out of your way to increase your personal dps. Maximize your damage output, yes. But, for example, I have never sat down for more vengeance and I would never have recommended doing that to anybody (before it got fixed).
    I think this is pretty accurate in terms of how I feel (though, I DO sit for the free veng often, simply because I'm hardly ever in danger of anything anymore). I've stopped caring about ranking entirely, not that I really was gung-ho about it ever. I don't swap glyphs for extra damage very often, don't swap to ES to push out moar deepz, etc. The tier is so watered down at this point that it's not really exciting to push ranks (for me, anyway). Instead, I may try to play with new talents or tank cycles, try to run up a debuff to higher than normal, etc. Usually, that increases DPS a bit, but it's not my main concern.

    This is coming from farming the tier for 2 months (not a brag, just saying that the "magic" is gone after being on cruise control for so long), so there's not much more for us to do to kill X faster.

    That said, I don't really see myself/my group ever pulling trash just to boost my dps. I'm too cheap to even potion or re-glyph for DPS, so clearly you can tell how much I care about my ranking. I still usually come in the top 10-100, but we have more fun just trolling each other with BoP's/Salvs and TOT/MD's to really care too much. Given how much work/gold it would take to keep an avoidance set around, just for cheesing DPS, I don't think I'll be hopping on that either. Maybe pick up some pieces after capping hit/exp/haste, but we'll see how it all pans out.

    Come SoO, I may (ok, WILL) abuse the new GC by tanking as many adds as possible, but I won't be introducing additional/external packs in the name of vengeance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  2. #3022
    I guess my frustrations are based that in a single tank fights I would have to go DPS because off-spec dps gear went to me. And my co-tank just doesn't survive well enough for my raid leader/healer to feel confident in solo-tanking.

    It's not a matter of gimping; our team just can't do it.

  3. #3023
    So, you're saying for single tank fights, your OT is too "squishy" to do it, and if your group was to do a solo tank fight, you would have to go dps because your tanking gear is "dps gear"?

    Your leaders make my head hurt... bad.

  4. #3024
    Quote Originally Posted by Drummerboy View Post
    I guess my frustrations are based that in a single tank fights I would have to go DPS because off-spec dps gear went to me. And my co-tank just doesn't survive well enough for my raid leader/healer to feel confident in solo-tanking.

    It's not a matter of gimping; our team just can't do it.
    Your DPS gear should be your tank gear anyway...but the bigger issue is wtf are you tanking with that your co-tank can't one tank fights? A mage? It's either a healer issue, or a tank issue (or both, I guess), but that's really shocking to me. Especially for normals (which I think you're on, IIRC).

    Quote Originally Posted by promdate View Post
    So, you're saying for single tank fights, your OT is too "squishy" to do it, and if your group was to do a solo tank fight, you would have to go dps because your tanking gear is "dps gear"?

    Your leaders make my head hurt... bad.
    Yeah, I really don't get it either. OT can't survive, but we're going to make him try (and fail), and then revert to 2-tanking? Instead of just letting the protpal do it and letting the off-tank do mediocre DPS? If the OT is THAT bad that he can't live in normals, it's not like he's going to be a stellar player anyhow...may as well play to your strengths and let you tank, him do SOME DPS as a DPS spec, and progress.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  5. #3025
    Quote Originally Posted by promdate View Post
    So, you're saying for single tank fights, your OT is too "squishy" to do it, and if your group was to do a solo tank fight, you would have to go dps because your tanking gear is "dps gear"?

    Your leaders make my head hurt... bad.
    I will take some blame. Before the beginning of the expansion I decided wanted to be the DPS on any solo tank fights so all two-handers/trinks,etc were funneled to me after DPS got them. By the time we figured out that a prot paladin was the "go-to" solo tank we had too much dps gear invested in me and none to the other tank.

    Again 2/12H... so little past normals... ooo I feel that chip on my shoulder again.

    I even am Sac'ing the off-tank occasionally to help out when Barrier doesn't help.
    Last edited by Drummerboy; 2013-07-16 at 04:31 PM.

  6. #3026
    Quote Originally Posted by Drummerboy View Post
    I will take some blame. Before the beginning of the expansion I decided wanted to be the DPS on any solo tank fights so all two-handers/trinks,etc were funneled to me after DPS got them. By the time we figured out that a prot paladin was the "go-to" solo tank we had too much dps gear invested in me and none to the other tank.
    Considering our best trinkets are DPS ones (Spark, Feather), I don't see why you couldn't just be the solo tank and your OT DPS. Your damage would make up for your OT's low DPS.

  7. #3027
    Half the time we just bring in another dps for our DK OT who has shit for dps gear (the joys of having 2-3 warriors, 2 DK's, myself and our 3rd tank all taking dps gear). But in reality we only solo tank Iron Qon and Durumu. The joys of 25H.

  8. #3028
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    wtf are you tanking with that your co-tank can't one tank fights? A mage?
    Hey now, mage tanks can be plenty survivable I've been told, when playing my mage, that I'm easier to heal than some of the tanks in the same runs (of course, dungeons, not raids), while still holding threat
    Last edited by rhandric; 2013-07-16 at 07:54 PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  9. #3029
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Come SoO, I may (ok, WILL) abuse the new GC by tanking as many adds as possible, but I won't be introducing additional/external packs in the name of vengeance.
    I am totally on the same page, introducing additional adds or external trash packs in the name of vengeance should never be done during progress.

    However...

    Sometimes you can safely introduce additional adds or trash packs that does nothing other than melee hitting the tanking, giving you free GC procs, by extension dps and hopo generation which leads to higher SotR uptime making you tankier, not squisher, aswell as the added benefit of more vengeance.
    As long as you can introduce those extra adds in a safe environment, i.e. they wont bash your skull in and break your neck like a toothpick, I see no reason why not to.

    Blizzard is giving us a great (readas: broken) tool that makes us scale with the amount of attackers we have one us in terms of our dps and damage mitigation, if we can get more weak hitting mobs on us other than the boss, then why the heck not. Add on top of that additional vengeance.
    We might aswell abuse this as much as possible, with caution however.



    And btw, I love the paladin forums.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    the bigger issue is wtf are you tanking with that your co-tank can't one tank fights? A mage?

  10. #3030
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Sometimes you can safely introduce additional adds or trash packs that does nothing other than melee hitting the tanking, giving you free GC procs, by extension dps and hopo generation which leads to higher SotR uptime making you tankier, not squisher, aswell as the added benefit of more vengeance.
    As long as you can introduce those extra adds in a safe environment, i.e. they wont bash your skull in and break your neck like a toothpick, I see no reason why not to.

    Blizzard is giving us a great (readas: broken) tool that makes us scale with the amount of attackers we have one us in terms of our dps and damage mitigation, if we can get more weak hitting mobs on us other than the boss, then why the heck not. Add on top of that additional vengeance.
    We might aswell abuse this as much as possible, with caution however.
    I'm not disagreeing, it's certainly doable in both theory AND practice. I'm just too lazy to really care to try and abuse it. As you said, it's a bit too reckless/chaotic/Murphy's Law for me to feel good using it for progression. And, after progression, it's just farm (at which point I mostly stop caring).

    We've got great tools to use (abuse) to eek out amazing numbers after the GC "nerf" (lulz), I'm just a bit too lazy to use them. But I will certainly use them for fights with native adds! Much like I do now with FS/FW glyphs and farming warbringers, leaving up the scarabs for lol-GC spam.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  11. #3031
    Quote Originally Posted by promdate View Post
    Half the time we just bring in another dps for our DK OT who has shit for dps gear (the joys of having 2-3 warriors, 2 DK's, myself and our 3rd tank all taking dps gear). But in reality we only solo tank Iron Qon and Durumu. The joys of 25H.
    My main is a dps DK in a 25m with warrior and dk tanks, 3 dps dks, 3 dps warriors, and 1 ret paladin. So much gear competition. We don't have a prot paladin in the gear competition at least, although we'd be better off with one. And we just started 25H animus last week, with 90% of the wipes so far being stupidity with font or adds linking (usually from multidotters pulling threat off healers). I hope it doesn't take us too long to kill but I can foresee many more wipes.

    @Drummerboy My prot paladin alt (raids weekends 10m) is in a similar situation to you. Not the strongest raiders, just a few heroics down, etc. We've still found it a significant dps gain for me to solo tank fights like Qon (esp heroic) and Durumu, even though my druid cotank's feral dps is atrocious. It might be a bit harder with a warrior cotank, since his tanking gear is not going to be particularly great for dpsing, but if you play well you can do an enormous amount of dps and healing solo tanking. Just something to consider.

  12. #3032
    I'm considering building a dodge/parry/crit build for all of the "manyadds" fights, just so i can spam critical as for the entire fight (inb4 666 9 666 9 rotation)

  13. #3033
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    but the bigger issue is wtf are you tanking with that your co-tank can't one tank fights? A mage?
    HKM anyone ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ulfric Trumpcloak View Post
    People on this site hate everything. Keep that in mind.

  14. #3034
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    it's a bit too reckless/chaotic/Murphy's Law for me to feel good using it for progression.
    But Murphy's Law has the coolest Pala Tank ever and probably the one holding the record for the most MMO-Champ bans and infractions.


  15. #3035
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimord View Post
    But Murphy's Law has the coolest Pala Tank ever and probably the one holding the record for the most MMO-Champ bans and infractions.

    Idk, every time firefly takes a trip down to general / raid discussion he gets banned :/

  16. #3036
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    Idk, every time firefly takes a trip down to general / raid discussion he gets banned :/
    I understand.

    Half the posts I open over there I just feel like quoting someone and asking "... Are you retarded?".

  17. #3037
    Deleted
    Everytime I get a PM (notification on MMO-Champ) my first thought is "Wtf did I get an infraction for now?"

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    I'm considering building a dodge/parry/crit build for all of the "manyadds" fights, just so i can spam critical as for the entire fight (inb4 666 9 666 9 rotation)
    You would probably get more gain from haste than crit to be honest.

  18. #3038
    Deleted
    Are there any demon trashpacks in SoO? Then make some warlocks enslave them and free them during the fight for more adds...
    Btw: I don't like this whole cheating stuff like sit-tanking, trash-to-boss-pulling etc. neither. Maybe the animus-tactics with 2 rings and CDs is the maximum i would use. Everything beyond this just feels wrong...

  19. #3039
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    Quote Originally Posted by DorfSchrat View Post
    Are there any demon trashpacks in SoO? Then make some warlocks enslave them and free them during the fight for more adds...
    Btw: I don't like this whole cheating stuff like sit-tanking, trash-to-boss-pulling etc. neither. Maybe the animus-tactics with 2 rings and CDs is the maximum i would use. Everything beyond this just feels wrong...
    Feels wrong to myself as well but I can't say I wouldn't do it. Farm content can get extraordinarily boring, we were clearing DS hc 8/8 in 2 hours and that was with slacking and usually a 30minute break during which time we did strange shit like a Star Trek quiz over vent. It's at that point where you just try and spice it up a bit by getting that bit more dps without putting yourself in more danger because the time delay if you wipe, is relatively large.

    We were all basically BiS minus about 1 or 2 items back then (I was still using hc Baleroc shield) and by that point, you're overgearing even heroic content. The scope for playing and bringing excitement without adding extra danger, becomes the task in the same way that "killing the boss" did the first time round.
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...nicus/advanced
    Quote Originally Posted by goblinpaladin View Post
    Also a vegetable is a person.
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    I dont care if they [gays] are allowed to donate [blood], but I think we should have an option to refuse gay blood if we need to receive blood.

  20. #3040
    Anyone here try the proving grounds? I've not done it, but I'm annoyed that it scales us down to 463, back to the days of primitive haste.

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