[MoP] Protection Paladin Guide

[Deleted]

Is the guide here still up to date? I know it's late, but I may be tanking the rest of MoP (unexpectedly).

I haven't really tanked since the first tier in Cata, so I'm a little behind.

Thanks

More or less, as it has always been. Depends on what content you are tanking but up to and including normals you wont be underperforming in contrast to what the content requires if you follow the guide without any other knowledge of the class.

[Taygete]

Thanks for the quick reply.

So besides this and the other links in the fix my tanking thread, anything else worth looking at?

[Deleted]

Thanks for the quick reply.

So besides this and the other links in the fix my tanking thread, anything else worth looking at?

Not rly. There are not really any other guides or something with more information. The only other thing to look at should be your spellbook and talent trees

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

Not rly. There are not really any other guides or something with more information. The only other thing to look at should be your spellbook and talent trees

He could always look at the guide I posted (link in my signature)

[Deleted]

He could always look at the guide I posted (link in my signature)

Well, it is kind of the same as this guide and any other guide. It does not really have any additioal information.

And that guide is quite full of misinformation and disinformation. Just look at the glyph section or dodge/parry section. If he already read this guide he will not really learn anything new from that one.

Not saying it is worse than this guide, but it certainly is not better either.

[celinamuna]

He could always look at the guide I posted (link in my signature)

mfw no hit/haste gems in blues, no exp/haste in red, actually listing battle healer, entire section on DR.
And personally i don't see SW as a good talent, it doesn't add to the smoothness of sotr uptime, and at the same doesn't give us an extra cd like HA.

[Deleted]

mfw no hit/haste gems in blues, no exp/haste in red, actually listing battle healer, entire section on DR.

You know my opinion about SW I will always consider it to be way stronger than HA since SotR + 20% healing > SotR.

But anyways, about that guide
No mention of haste food. Actually mentions dodge elixir as an option to armor elixir.

Double Jeopardy as a common glyph, Word of Glory not as a common glyph.
Says divine protection is mandatory on a lot of fights while it says Final Wrath is the third dps glyph choice (Really, final wrath is the only glyph that is 100% mandatory for all fights).
Focused Wrath not marked as a common glyph.
Actually lists Avenging Wrath glyph, HotR Glyph, Immediate Truth.
Not only does it mentions HoSac glyph, but it has it as a common glyph? Seriously, what paladin uses that glyph?

Provides no explanation to enchants at the same time as it provides multiple options.

And as you said, having an entire section devoted to dodge/parry DR, and the gearing section is like 60-70% about dodge and parry too.
+ A ton of other weird stuff.

I do not really read guides. Sometimes it is both fun but also horrifying to give them a quick look and think that new players actually reads them and trust the information given.

[celinamuna]

You know my opinion about SW I will always consider it to be way stronger than HA since SotR + 20% healing > SotR.

Macro in HA + AW.
GGWP
Plus instead of somewhat buffing one of my CDs (while making it more clunky) i prefer to have a separate cd.
Over a full duration of HA i can get ~11 HoP generators --> 22 extra HoP plus 100% uptime on Glyph of WoG for it's entire duration.
Over a full duration of SW i can get 14 J and 9 CS --> 14 extra HoP generated
So even with HWF vial HA wins in HoP generation.
20% extra healing is nice, but... i'm already doing 20% more healing and have ~100% SotR coverage, so the 20% extra healing is probably going to go into overheal.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

Well, it is kind of the same as this guide and any other guide. It does not really have any additioal information.

And that guide is quite full of misinformation and disinformation. Just look at the glyph section or dodge/parry section. If he already read this guide he will not really learn anything new from that one.

Not saying it is worse than this guide, but it certainly is not better either.

1. I say to not take battle healer, because the patch made it shite. Other glyphs that can be potentially useful are listed because they can be useful. For example, Dazing Shield doesn't add a dps gain (in fact, a snared enemy can result in a dps loss) but that doesn't mean it can't be useful in, say, challenge modes or for slowing enraged mobs in Proving Grounds. Now you mention it, I didn't talk about Blinding Light.
2. So many people don't understand what a diminishing return is, so I explained it. I think that it is important to understand what a diminishing return means (I lost count of the amount of people that thought that DR meant something it doesn't). I also say that it isn't really worthwhile balancing avoidance DR now.
3. I believe that it is useful to understand the mechanics of the game. Even those that we don't try to actively exploit. Indeed, I even say that "I include the following information only for completeness' sake" (direct quote).
4. Gems: fixed.

I used to be in a 25 man raid. And there, we actually used Hand of Sacrifice on tanks to reduce their damage taken! I know you played 10 man and 10 man heroic, and were always saying about how little damage the bosses do to the tanks, which makes reducing it even more a moot point, but sometimes I actually use stuff like that because of the outgoing damage while not increasing my own damage taken. That makes the glyph more interesting.

And as you said, having an entire section devoted to dodge/parry DR, and the gearing section is like 60-70% about dodge and parry too.
+ A ton of other weird stuff.

Words on avoidance and DR section: 442
Words on haste, mastery and AM section: 1800

Not exactly 60%, is it?

[Deleted]

Macro in HA + AW.
GGWP
Plus instead of somewhat buffing one of my CDs (while making it more clunky) i prefer to have a separate cd.

You dont get the 20% increased healing taken from AW if you do not have SW. It is linked with the talent.
I also do not find it more clunky. A two-tap rotation is eaier than a three-tap one as soon as you get used to it.
Personally I find HA to be super clunky.

AW on its own is not really a CD. Dont think I have ever used AW on its own as a defensive CD. There is for sure conflicting opinions on this. But it is pretty hard to argue with the hard facts. SW is a stronger CD, but HA has slightly longer duration and shorter CD. Simply choose what you prefer the most.

- - - Updated - - -

1. I say to not take battle healer, because the patch made it shite. Other glyphs that can be potentially useful are listed because they can be useful. For example, Dazing Shield doesn't add a dps gain (in fact, a snared enemy can result in a dps loss) but that doesn't mean it can't be useful in, say, challenge modes or for slowing enraged mobs in Proving Grounds. Now you mention it, I didn't talk about Blinding Light.
2. So many people don't understand what a diminishing return is, so I explained it. I think that it is important to understand what a diminishing return means (I lost count of the amount of people that thought that DR meant something it doesn't). I also say that it isn't really worthwhile balancing avoidance DR now.
3. I believe that it is useful to understand the mechanics of the game. Even those that we don't try to actively exploit. Indeed, I even say that "I include the following information only for completeness' sake" (direct quote).
4. Gems: fixed.

1. Yeah, I did not mention Dazing Shield, that glyph can actually be useful. Even so, the glyph explanation is very shorthanded.

2. While it can be good to include stuff for completeness sake, it takes up so much reading room in the guide that it is more likely to confuse new players and would honestly be more benefitial if it was not in the guide at all. It is about as relevant to paladin tanking as the critical strike gain from agility or spell critical strike chance from intellect however there is not two paragraphs about how much spell critical strike chance we get from intellect and which spells benefit from it.

If the guide cleaned up the glyph section, added better explanations to glyphs, talents and enchants and completely removed any mention of dodge/parry DR then it would be a guide that would maybe better then rest.

[celinamuna]

You dont get the 20% increased healing taken from AW if you do not have SW. It is linked with the talent.
I also do not find it more clunky. A two-tap rotation is eaier than a three-tap one as soon as you get used to it.
Personally I find HA to be super clunky.

AW on its own is not really a CD. Dont think I have ever used AW on its own as a defensive CD. There is for sure conflicting opinions on this. But it is pretty hard to argue with the hard facts. SW is a stronger CD, but HA has slightly longer duration and shorter CD. Simply choose what you prefer the most.

You get +20% healing done w/o the talent. :>
Seeing how the majority of my healing taken is self healing it's ~20% healing taken increase. Plus i can actually snapshot EF with this, which leads to 50sec of 20% stronger EF.

+

Over a full duration of HA i can get ~11 HoP generators --> 22 extra HoP plus 100% uptime on Glyph of WoG for it's entire duration.
Over a full duration of SW i can get 14 J and 9 CS --> 14 extra HoP generated
So even with HWF vial HA wins in HoP generation.
20% extra healing is nice, but... i'm already doing 20% more healing and have ~100% SotR coverage, so the 20% extra healing is probably going to go into overheal.

P.S. does anything besides WoG/EF benefit from spell crit ?

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

P.S. does anything besides WoG/EF benefit from spell crit ?

Consecrate and Holy Wrath IIRC.

I want to keep those two contentious chapters in the guide, but have relegated them to the end.

[celinamuna]

Hmm, i do wonder about t6 talents then.

[Deleted]

You are missing the fact that you did 7 additional judgments aswell during that period of time from SW.

I got an old simulation of HA/SW that I am not 100% sure is accurate, since it is a bit old.

But, if you have 50% haste and HA/SW is used perfectly while at 5 HoPo, SW gives you 57 seconds of SotR coverage and HA gives you 51 (54) seconds without counting any GC procs. It assumes unrealistically good play from both sides though.

SW actually gives you more HoPo than HA per use unless you proc GCs.

The 44% self healing increase is also insane in my opinion.

[celinamuna]

Hmm so that would be 7 from normal J + 14 from extra ones aka 21 :P
(Fuck perfect play/latency)
The difference tho is the 2 vs 3 min cd (because i'm +- never using vial), being able to use it separately and something else that i forgot.
Plus It's effectively only a 24% Self healing increase over say HA/DP (granted greater duration)

[Deleted]

Yup. Personally I prefer DP since I do not really need the extra CD. But if I would have the option the choice is simple. You need the CD more often then every 3 miutes, use HA. You need the CD less often than every 3 minutes, use SW. Dont need a cd, use DP.

For example I used HA for Malkorok bload soaking until I got the malkorok trinket and could use SW instead.

[celinamuna]

On malk you can actually use HA right at the start and it'll be up before the soak phase.
Also HA > SW because you get ashbringer. GGWP

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

Avenging Wrath with the heroic malkorok trinket comes off cooldown about 5 seconds before the Blood Rage starts, Holy Avenger is off CD long before the Blood Rage phase.

[celinamuna]

So you can pop HA with a 20 sec delay to just shift it's value to a much better veng value.
And again, the style factor is not to be under-estimated.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

So you can pop HA with a 20 sec delay to just shift it's value to a much better veng value.
And again, the style factor is not to be under-estimated.

That would depend on how you do the tank swap. We do it so taht the solo-tanker starts, and we taunt at 15 stacks. This means that the solo-tanker has zero stacks when the blood rage starts. You'd need to work out when to taunt later on to guarantee that the solo-tanker has zero stacks when the blood rage starts, yet still be actively tanking to actually benefit from the Holy Avenger.