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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Sooprbamp View Post
    You do know that undead players are still under humanoid classification...?
    I think he's referring to the fear/charm/sleep break that the undead racial grants.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    I'll have what he's having!

    (Hint: It's crack.)

    Ichy, you have no clue what you're talking about. I was going to go through and respond to your post point by point, and had a whole paragraph written up, but I erased it when I realized that nearly everything you said is wrong. No, seriously. This is not an internet guy trying to troll you.

    I do admire your enthusiasm, though!
    I got to agree, most of what you wrote is just wrong Ichy.

    EX. T90 is wholly a utility tier that PvE could more or less give a crap about, Remorseless Winter is preferred in PvE, for the add control (if your a tank since most mobs are immune to the grip of Gorfiends Grasp) and to keep up Frost Feaver, Desecrated Ground has no use outside PvP.

    Also you seem to be under the impression that GG grips both hostile and friendly targets, this is not the case. GG grips only Hostile to your target (Which can be friendly or hostile).
    Last edited by Kaosbringer; 2012-08-01 at 11:49 PM.

  3. #63
    Dreadlord Leviatharan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaosbringer View Post
    Remorseless Winter is preferred in PvE, for the add control (if your a tank since most mobs are immune to the grip of Gorfiends Grasp) and to keep up Frost Feaver
    Pretty sure RW never had anything to do with Frost Fever. :P
    Leviatharan - Level 120 Blood Elf Unholy Death Knight - Inscription/Herbalism - <Conflux> - Drak'Tharon US

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  4. #64
    Deleted
    I sincerly don't see any useless talent, maybe there are talents that could be better, maybe some talent is mandatory according to our playstile and maybe some other talent is situational but all I see is what Blizz promised us: flexibility.

    Anyone else saying something different probably just whine as default mode and would wine even if Blizz would make us Uber-OP talents.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaosbringer View Post
    I got to agree, most of what you wrote is just wrong Ichy.

    EX. T90 is wholly a utility tier that PvE could more or less give a crap about, Remorseless Winter is preferred in PvE, for the add control (if your a tank since most mobs are immune to the grip of Gorfiends Grasp) and to keep up Frost Feaver, Desecrated Ground has no use outside PvP.

    Also you seem to be under the impression that GG grips both hostile and friendly targets, this is not the case. GG grips only Hostile to your target (Which can be friendly or hostile).
    I will admit that my idea of how GG works could be very wrong, thank you for clarifying. However, you are wrong saying that PvE doesn't give a crap about the t90 talents. I'm PvE (haven't cared for PvP much after the introduction of Arenas so long ago) and find that all 3 have uses. While both T90 and t75 do seem rather lack luster, your claim is still Opinionated. From a raid stand point- for tanking or dps- Desecrated Ground will be very useful for that fear/charm effect from boss's or Boss Adds. An example from old content- for mount farming or what have you - there is the Kael'thas fight- Caperinian casts conflag immediately once p3 Starts, most strats us AMS and burn her before it (ams) expires, but with DG we can just eat the magic damage and not worry about the loss of control and save AMS for the Other advisors Stun ability- Telonicus. I'm sure GG will get fixed to work in raids and RW will still find its uses for exactly what you said.

    @Schizoide- Your Claim that I have no clue what I'm talking about doesn't progress the discussion and is more of a jab or insult at me for expressing my opinion. The point of the MoP talent system is to move away from cookie cutter specs and give players Talent Choices, most coming to the forums are claiming this to be untrue because of very Opinionated reasons and narrow foresight. Many of the more popular arguments boil down to - ITS TOO SITUATIONAL, I WANT A TALENT THE WORKS ALL THE TIME!!. I admit that it would be nice to have talents that are usable 100% of the time, its just not the direction the Dev's want to take with our talents; this is more of an inference then an assumption after reviewing the changes we've seen over the beta lifetime and where the talents are at as the beta nears completion. So I implore you, TELL ME how I'm wrong, tell me how DG doesn't have any use and that RW/GG is 100% manditory for raiding (Just using t90 as it seems this is really where many people have problems with the talent system- out side of t75). As it stands, your post is just a troll post, with only a claim that I am wrong with no real evidence to the contrary.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaosbringer View Post
    Also you seem to be under the impression that GG grips both hostile and friendly targets, this is not the case. GG grips only Hostile to your target (Which can be friendly or hostile).
    Has anyone used this to troll any group/guildmates on Beta? There has to be a way for me to get revenge on my life grip happy priest friend! They are wise to path of frost and brez so I need a new trick....
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  7. #67
    I don't believe that's true. GG can be cast on a friendly or enemy target, and it pulls enemy targets in. Otherwise if you cast it on an enemy, you would be pulled in too.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    I don't believe that's true. GG can be cast on a friendly or enemy target, and it pulls enemy targets in. Otherwise if you cast it on an enemy, you would be pulled in too.
    That is what I am saying, it only pulls in hostile players/npcs.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by GamerLCD View Post
    8-1-2012 -
    Note - I have updated this thread with all new information and factual evidence that backs up my claims that all talents are picked for us and we have 100% no choice in talents.

    ____

    I know that most of these issues have been presented in many other various threads but I just realized something and came up with a dramatic conclusion about Death Knights going into MoP.

    We have almost no choice in talents/glyphs at all.
    Lets break it down.

    ____

    Lets start with your talent grid.

    Tier 56 - This tier is all about spreading diseases. Then we have a talent in their called plaque leach which lets us obtain a Death Rune in return for diminishing the diseases on our current target. The automatic choice here is Plaque Leech do to the fact it gives us a death rune. The argument here is that we have plenty of other mechanics to spread diseases such as outbreak and pestilence so doing more dps is the obvious option.

    Tier 57 - Nothing really to discuss here. Purgatory will be mandatory for tanks who obviously want to survive and live long as possible. AMZ and LB are basically just their for PvP. Most if not all dps will choose AMZ in PvE because they will want that raid CD. There are no situations ever where a dps would want to use LB in raid situation. And of course a PvP player will always take LB.

    Tier 58 - Now this is a tricky tier because of the change to frost presence. Now that frost specialization is forced into frost presence we now lose the movement speed increase from unholy presence. Because of this, everyone will spec into death's advance for both PvE and PvP because of stacking speed increase buff even if you are unholy. Not to mention that glyph of DnD lets us slow anyways so CB is never an option. Asphyxiate which I bet sounded cool to everyone at first when it was announced but further glance you notice it gets rid of silence. No one will ever choose this outside of cosmetic playing around because we would rather have a silence+a movement increase than a stun that most are immune to anyways.

    Tier 60 - This is another no choice tier because it has already been mathed out. You are 99.9% of the time going to want to pick death pact because of the way it functions now. Being able to heal yourself for half your health instantly is an automatic win even if you are not unholy because raise undead is on a 2min CD same as DP. Conversion and Death Siphon are both useless in both PvP and PvE because they are a dps lost because they costs enormous amount of resources. Conversion might be used for leveling without having to wait and eat but even then Death Pact is better.

    Tier 75 - This has been discussed for months at it is pretty much unanimous at this point that no one wants this tier. Having to choose a core mechanic to decide how your runes regenerate is just not a good idea. I mean you wouldn't have a healer choose how the regenerate mana or a pally decide how they regenerate holy power right? This tier has already been mathed out as well. You are always going to pick RC if you are frost and RC if you are unholy just like it is on live. They need to go back to how it is on live currently. Make BT baseline and assign RC and RE back to frost and unholy respectively. Then replace these with 3 more interesting talents.

    Tier 90 - This is a completely useless tier, even for PvP players. Anyone who has played their death knight for more than 5 minutes can notice that these uninteresting 90 talents are just updates to talents we already have on live. Remorseless winter is actually just hungering cold except worse because of the ramp of time as where HC just had a 1.5s cast. Desecrated Ground is just desecration from the unholy tree on live except we are immune to CC which again isn't really a big deal we need to be mobile. Mass Death grip is cool, but again is auto choice for tanks. DpS could live without either of the other two.

    Now lets talk about glyphs.

    It has been discussed already that death knights just aren't getting any good interesting entertaining glyphs unlike other classes. Lets talk about mandatory glyphs.

    Glyph of AMS - Why would you not want this as tank or dps in PvE and PvP.

    Glyph of VP - I thought we were trying to avoid straight up bonuses to spells in MoP? All tanks will take this just like they do now on live

    Every other glyph is just iterations of things we already have on live, just boring.

    ____

    Death Knights have been voicing their issues for a long time on the beta forums and none of the issues have been addressed aside from number issues. Please give us interesting mechanics and abilities. Druids, warlocks, hunters, Spriests, and shamans have received borderline class overhauls while we are left with crappy talents we already have on live. Please Devs, fix us.

    Actually, no. I would pick RW over GG any day for mobility. GG has no taunt effect and you can place your DnD pretty much anywhere you want, so using it to pull mobs to you and then wasting a threat AoE move is redunant. Especially when you can just DnD straight away and spare a GCD.

    I see it more like a PvP/ fun-talent, definitely not a FoTE tanking talent.

  10. #70
    Deleted
    This thread needs to be highlighted. So much truth in it, I can't believe Blizzard actually thought it was a good idea putting the random rune generating passive's as a talent tier for us to choose between. Why, oh WHY can't we have it like it used to be, RE baseline and let us just have a glyph to turn it into RC (like it used to be a talent deep in the unholy tree) - and return blood tap to what it previously was. Death rune on demand with a cooldown.

    And the level 60 talent tier, why can't it be a theme of let's say mobility like paladin, warriors etc got. Instead we have to choose between mobility (altough quite bad), snare or on-demand cc that we lack... sigh, hope this changes in WoD. /rant done

    Edit: not that it's necessarily related to all this, but Empower Rune Weapon has got to be the least satisfying 5min cooldown to use in the entire game. Then again, blizzard still punishes death knight's since their glorious "OP"-days in early WotLK so doubt they are gonna change this laughable "cooldown".
    Last edited by mmoc3e59536e7c; 2014-01-19 at 12:42 PM.

  11. #71
    Holy necro batman.

  12. #72
    Deleted
    Still highly relevant. Doesn't change that.

  13. #73
    They need to fix our 75/90 talents badly. We have the least interesting max level talents in MoP and none of them do damage or increase our damage with a cooldown. This is something that seriously needs to be addressed in the WoD beta. They are completely situational and outside of GG in pve most of them are absolutely pointless.

    It's actually insanely discouraging seeing that every other class has some form of damage increase by max talents(whether it be a cooldown or extra ability) yet dk's don't get anything but cc or immunity out of ours.

  14. #74
    Mechagnome
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    Another thing that should be done but seems to be only sparsely mentioned: Make all three talents in T57 (Lichborne, Purgatory, AMZ) baseline.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Veiled Shadow View Post
    Another thing that should be done but seems to be only sparsely mentioned: Make all three talents in T57 (Lichborne, Purgatory, AMZ) baseline.
    I could see AMZ and lichborn but purgatory I dont know. While it's saved my ass from time to time, I dont think they want to give another class a baseline cheat death mechanic.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Balibapo View Post
    This thread needs to be highlighted. So much truth in it, I can't believe Blizzard actually thought it was a good idea putting the random rune generating passive's as a talent tier for us to choose between. Why, oh WHY can't we have it like it used to be, RE baseline and let us just have a glyph to turn it into RC (like it used to be a talent deep in the unholy tree) - and return blood tap to what it previously was. Death rune on demand with a cooldown.

    And the level 60 talent tier, why can't it be a theme of let's say mobility like paladin, warriors etc got. Instead we have to choose between mobility (altough quite bad), snare or on-demand cc that we lack... sigh, hope this changes in WoD. /rant done

    Edit: not that it's necessarily related to all this, but Empower Rune Weapon has got to be the least satisfying 5min cooldown to use in the entire game. Then again, blizzard still punishes death knight's since their glorious "OP"-days in early WotLK so doubt they are gonna change this laughable "cooldown".
    What the hell man? There are rules around here about thread necros.

    This thread isn't full of truth and certainly doesn't need to be highlighted - it's just someone whining that DK talents and glyphs are not exactly what he wants.

    You are doing that classic move where you just directly compare one little piece of one thing to another little piece of some other without looking at the whole package; there's an excellent reason why we get a choice between an MS steroid, a spammable slow and a stun - we have death grip, paladins and warriors don't.

    Why do you think all of the warrior's mobility talents affect charge, instead of giving them another movement ability like DK or paladin can get? Because they fucking have heroic leap. You can't just willy-nilly throw shit out there like that.

    Regarding the rune talents - you know good and well why none of them are base-line and they're all optional; we'd be significantly more powerful with TWO ways to keep getting runes back instead of one and this gives you freedom to have rolling rune haste in frost or blood and not just unholy or you can have full control with blood tap. The rune talents are by no means perfect but that doesn't make them horrible.

    Lastly, ERW may not be some simple-to-read FUCKYOU button but it's still a pretty strong ability and if you equate what it does with damage or mitigation numbers, you get a decent roll-out though I don't know that it's quite as beefy as some other 5 min abilities - but again, we can't just compare everyone's 5 min CDs and say "OMG ERW IS POOP BECAUSE ____ IS BETTER."

    So yeah...the class has its problems but what you're looking at are pretty minor ones and the OP isn't some profound genius who figured out the answer to the problem with our class - he just wants us to be his way and while that's fine to want, it by no means makes him right.
    Last edited by Olrox; 2014-01-19 at 06:05 PM.
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  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Olrox View Post
    What the hell man? There are rules around here about thread necros.

    This thread isn't full of truth and certainly doesn't need to be highlighted - it's just someone whining that DK talents and glyphs are not exactly what he wants.

    You are doing that classic move where you just directly compare one little piece of one thing to another little piece of some other without looking at the whole package; there's an excellent reason why we get a choice between an MS steroid, a spammable slow and a stun - we have death grip, paladins and warriors don't.

    Why do you think all of the warrior's mobility talents affect charge, instead of giving them another movement ability like DK or paladin can get? Because they fucking have heroic leap. You can't just willy-nilly throw shit out there like that.

    Regarding the rune talents - you know good and well why none of them are base-line and they're all optional; we'd be significantly more powerful with TWO ways to keep getting runes back instead of one and this gives you freedom to have rolling rune haste in frost or blood and not just unholy or you can have full control with blood tap. The rune talents are by no means perfect but that doesn't make them horrible.

    Lastly, ERW may not be some simple-to-read FUCKYOU button but it's still a pretty strong ability and if you equate what it does with damage or mitigation numbers, you get a decent roll-out though I don't know that it's quite as beefy as some other 5 min abilities - but again, we can't just compare everyone's 5 min CDs and say "OMG ERW IS POOP BECAUSE ____ IS BETTER."

    So yeah...the class has its problems but what you're looking at are pretty minor ones and the OP isn't some profound genius who figured out the answer to the problem with our class - he just wants us to be his way and while that's fine to want, it by no means makes him right.
    Tha class has major problems you're just too naive to realize it. For what ERW does, it should be a 3 minute cooldown. It feels good for frost with the galakras trinket, but when I play unholy going back to five minutes is just terrible. The rune regen section is absolutely terrible. There should be one baseline and one other that you can glyph. The orignal blood tap was never overpowered it just granted you a death rune if you needed it. It was essentially an oh shit I ran out of resources button and all I have is an unholy rune(speaking as a frost dk). Our tree as a whole is a mess, there is no reason to have a stun, snare and movement increase in the same level bracket.

  18. #78
    Eh, OP do kinda have a point.
    Our talent trees do feel rather lackluster and pretty shit when it comes to choice in PvE, compared to other classes atleast as i feel it.


    Plenty of our talents are completely ignored on both PvE and PvP, you dont pick Lichborne or desecrated ground for PvE as an example, where other classes talents are all rounded and its more what you want to play with, while we are "forced" into picking certain talents.

    Lichborne, RC(to some extent), Desecrated ground and Rolling blood(unless your blood) are talents that you pretty much ignore completely in PvE.
    Either those talents are shit, or the other options are simply much better and rendering those useless.
    There is no true "choice" as blizzard wanted it to be, other classes actually do have a choice in what they pick, we? Not so much.

    That they put a "raid cd" and two defensive cooldowns, where one is purely PvP in the same bracket just shows how badly designed our current talent tree is.

  19. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xekus View Post
    Eh, OP do kinda have a point.
    Our talent trees do feel rather lackluster and pretty shit when it comes to choice in PvE, compared to other classes atleast as i feel it.


    Plenty of our talents are completely ignored on both PvE and PvP, you dont pick Lichborne or desecrated ground for PvE as an example, where other classes talents are all rounded and its more what you want to play with, while we are "forced" into picking certain talents.

    Lichborne, RC(to some extent), Desecrated ground and Rolling blood(unless your blood) are talents that you pretty much ignore completely in PvE.
    Either those talents are shit, or the other options are simply much better and rendering those useless.
    There is no true "choice" as blizzard wanted it to be, other classes actually do have a choice in what they pick, we? Not so much.

    That they put a "raid cd" and two defensive cooldowns, where one is purely PvP in the same bracket just shows how badly designed our current talent tree is.
    Lichborne is not completely useless in PvE - it's very good for certain bosses, like Sha of Fear.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Veiled Shadow View Post
    Lichborne is not completely useless in PvE - it's very good for certain bosses, like Sha of Fear.
    So, 1 fight it may be useful? eh sounds rather bad too me, would never pick it over AMZ or purgatory on sha anyways.

    Point being, Blizzard preach about "choice"
    They changed the talent system because previously everybody just followed a cookie cutter build, and when i look at our current talents i dont really see we having that much choice compared to other classes, which is sad and imo blizzard failed badly when they designed our talent system.

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