The PvP Power dilemma- hardmode raiding required

[Deleted]

If you're sick of it, why are you going to buy MoP? Put your money where your mouth is.

EDIT: God that GW2 video looks awful. Graphics and art design is garbage and I don't really see anything that looks dramatically different from WoW other than they only have 8 action buttons instead of 60.

You need to aim abilities instead of heat-seaking them, crowd control is a lot faster, no interface clutter, debuffs are consolidated, so instead of 250 icons you need to now mabye 20. You can dodge enemy skills, if you anticipate and combo moves reward team coordination. Also it has zero grind involved and Arena Net is backing the pvp community with things like a spectator client and regular tournaments.

[Derpyhooves]

I don't understand this argument. PVP players are always saying how easy PVE is and how much more skill it takes to do well in PVP. If thats the case then all the super skilled PVPers can go and faceroll some heroic raids and get whatever gear they want right?

More to the point if PVP players are super skilled and PVE players are terrible players who only can beat scripted fights then why is it an issue what gear they have? Surely your superior PVP skills you can overcome their extra PVE dps gear and less resilience. Surely those aweful PVE players can't do much damage against your superior cc and positioning right?

How come when I look at many of the top rated players in PVP they are not using PVE gear?

[Deleted]

At which players are you looking? Would be interested to see that. Some classes play pretty defensive (resto shamans), but find a top rated rogue, mage, shadow priest, warlock, boomkin or hunter without top end pve gear (assuming they played in the last 10 weeks).

[Evolixe]

That doesn't follow, unless resilience turns out to be less valuable than power and than PvE stats.

Ehm, that has always been the case if the weapon are that much better...

[Derpyhooves]

At which players are you looking? Would be interested to see that. Some classes play pretty defensive (resto shamans), but find a top rated rogue, mage, shadow priest, warlock, boomkin or hunter without top end pvp gear (assuming they played in the last 10 weeks).

I'm a bit confused whether you are arguing with me or agreeing with me. But yes what I am saying is many top rated pvp players don't have any pve gear just pvp gear and tier 2 pvp weapons.

[Deleted]

I'm a bit confused whether you are arguing with me or agreeing with me. But yes what I am saying is many top rated pvp players don't have any pve gear just pvp gear and tier 2 pvp weapons.

Sorry I wrote pvp instead of pve. Look around at the ladders, all the top teams use heavy pve gear, I think resto shamans and maybe death knights are the exception, but pretty much every other class uses hardmode pve gear currently.

[PizzaSHARK]

You need to aim abilities instead of heat-seaking them, crowd control is a lot faster, no interface clutter, debuffs are consolidated, so instead of 250 icons you need to now mabye 20. You can dodge enemy skills, if you anticipate and combo moves reward team coordination. Also it has zero grind involved and Arena Net is backing the pvp community with things like a spectator client and regular tournaments.

I dunno, it still looks awful. I'll play DotA, SC, or UT if I want a game that's going claim it's reliant on player skill.

And how long has GW2 been in development? And it's still that fuckin ugly? I dunno, I don't really think GW2 is going to become big enough to be a serious threat to WoW.

[Derpyhooves]

Sorry I wrote pvp instead of pve. Look around at the ladders, all the top teams use heavy pve gear, I think resto shamans and maybe death knights are the exception, but pretty much every other class uses hardmode pve gear currently.

Ah fair enough. Look I don't want to get into a game of me finding all the players with no pve gear and you finding all the ones with pve to try and prove me wrong, lets be honest and say some use pve and some don't. Its certainly not mandatory.

[Deleted]

Ugly is question of taste. I actually love the drawn style and hate semi-realistic games, like military fps games. Maybe because I have a background in design and also love art.

Ah fair enough. Look I don't want to get into a game of me finding all the players with no pve gear and you finding all the ones with pve to try and prove me wrong, lets be honest and say some use pve and some don't. Its certainly not mandatory.

Agreed. But without pve gear do not try to play rogue, mage, hunter, bookin, shadow priest or warlock. If you don't have access high rated pvp is out of the question for all but the absolute best multi rank 1 players.

[Bsod]

they could simply add pvp power to weapons and i think they will do it after the first season
since you get your first pvp weapon for free (honor) in season 2

[PizzaSHARK]

Ugly is question of taste. I actually love the drawn style and hate semi-realistic games, like military fps games. Maybe because I have a background in design and also love art.

Except GW2 went for a realistic appearance for everything. WoW is cartoony and frequently over the top, and despite the game engine being so old, it still looks pretty decent for the most part.

But when you go for the realistic look they're going for, you run into problems. The engineer I saw didn't look like she was running on the ground, it looked like she was gliding above it while playing a running animation or a rolling animation. It's especially apparent when she started strafing and the camera and character spastically jerked sideways and then jerked right back. That's present in WoW, too, but WoW isn't aiming for anything realistic while GW2 is. It looks hideous and unfinished.

And I don't know what race those warriors were but they were huge to the point of being fucking comical if that engineer was supposed to be human.

Agreed. But without pve gear do not try to play rogue, mage, hunter, bookin, shadow priest or warlock. If you don't have access high rated pvp is out of the question for all but the absolute best multi rank 1 players.

Yeah. Full PvP rogues are impossible to kill, but rogues are strong right now because of those legendaries... you can lose 60% of your HP in a Kidney Shot from the Rogue's damage alone, and that's on a tank with 4600 resil.

[Deleted]

GW2 certainly isn't aiming for realistic looks. Look at the style they use in the official screenshots. It's not cartoon more like high quality comic graphics.

[Derpyhooves]

Agreed. But without pve gear do not try to play rogue, mage, hunter, bookin, shadow priest or warlock. If you don't have access high rated pvp is out of the question for all but the absolute best multi rank 1 players.

Ok well again I don't want to get into a debate over what is considered high rated pvp, but in a way you just confirmed what I was originally saying that a skilled player can out play another player of less skill regardless of gear.

But lets look at it another way, if you have 2 players of equal skill and equal gear they should be pretty evenly matched. Now besides one player gaining more skill the only other way to beat the opponent is with better gear. So if one player puts in the effort to get better gear why should they not be rewarded? I know many pvp players say they don't want to pve and thats fine, nobody is forcing you to. If you want to say "hey I could do better if i put in a few hours each week to raid and get the gear but i can't be bothered" thats an individual choice. But if you want that little edge over your opponent you should be willing to put in some effort, just like you grind your professions for that extra couple of 100 stats.

Lets be honest, the gear people are talking about takes a lot of effort to get. Legendaries take months to grind, I saw my first heroic cunning this week after 9 months into dragonsoul, rng drops are a bitch. People like to make out that any idiot can pick up a raid trinket and faceroll their way to glad.

[Deleted]

If you're sick of it, why are you going to buy MoP? Put your money where your mouth is.

Before you reply read the whole conversation and not just the thing you wanna troll about. Now "put your reply where you %%# is" and be polite.

[Deleted]

Ok well again I don't want to get into a debate over what is considered high rated pvp, but in a way you just confirmed what I was originally saying that a skilled player can out play another player of less skill regardless of gear.

But lets look at it another way, if you have 2 players of equal skill and equal gear they should be pretty evenly matched. Now besides one player gaining more skill the only other way to beat the opponent is with better gear. So if one player puts in the effort to get better gear why should they not be rewarded? I know many pvp players say they don't want to pve and thats fine, nobody is forcing you to. If you want to say "hey I could do better if i put in a few hours each week to raid and get the gear but i can't be bothered" thats an individual choice. But if you want that little edge over your opponent you should be willing to put in some effort, just like you grind your professions for that extra couple of 100 stats.

Lets be honest, the gear people are talking about takes a lot of effort to get. Legendaries take months to grind, I saw my first heroic cunning this week after 9 months into dragonsoul, rng drops are a bitch. People like to make out that any idiot can pick up a raid trinket and faceroll their way to glad.

It takes time, but is not really hard. The hardest part about my legendary was getting pick up groups together or find groups that were looking for a rogue. The point is, that it is less enjoyable. If the legendary would be given for anyone that would complete the solo quests without dying with a two week cooldown after a failed attempt it would be worth something. But doing normal modes over and over again to collect items is really not exciting. The solo quests however are my favorite quests ever and I played classic including the Ahn'Qiraj chain.

[Derpyhooves]

It takes time, but is not really hard. The hardest part about my legendary was getting pick up groups together or find groups that were looking for a rogue. The point is, that it is less enjoyable. If the legendary would be given for anyone that would complete the solo quests without dying with a two week cooldown after a failed attempt it would be worth something. But doing normal modes over and over again to collect items is really not exciting. The solo quests however are my favorite quests ever and I played classic including the Ahn'Qiraj chain.

Oh yeah its definitely a matter of time and not hard to get these things. Thats sort of why I don't understand why players just don't go and do it if they really think it will be a big advantage. I get that its time consuming and boring or whatever but thats what makes the difference in competition, people who put in extra effort get rewarded.

Its like saying you want to be an olympic champion but you don't want to get up early in the morning and train for months because its boring.

I understand some pvp'ers just want the entire pvp aspect of wow to be like a completely seperate game. But its never going to happen and grinding for gear is one of the basic premises of the game, its what keeps people subbing for months on end doing the same crap every week.

[Deleted]

I have the cure! Why don't we put PvP Power on PvE weapons?

[Evolixe]

I have the cure! Why don't we put PvP Power on PvE weapons?

That is essentially what they are doing.. in reverse.

[Deleted]

Oh yeah its definitely a matter of time and not hard to get these things. Thats sort of why I don't understand why players just don't go and do it if they really think it will be a big advantage. I get that its time consuming and boring or whatever but thats what makes the difference in competition, people who put in extra effort get rewarded.

Its like saying you want to be an olympic champion but you don't want to get up early in the morning and train for months because its boring.

I understand some pvp'ers just want the entire pvp aspect of wow to be like a completely seperate game. But its never going to happen and grinding for gear is one of the basic premises of the game, its what keeps people subbing for months on end doing the same crap every week.

Apples and oranges.
I spend my time just to pvp, so i must get rewarded more that a player who does both. And yes, pvp must be separate. Its the same reason why a pver will never have to pvp in order to become better pver. Its not about what is better or more worthy. Its 2 separate things.
Besides that you can't understand that even if you spend more time playing wow and invest into pve in order to improve your gear for pvp, that's NOT the case for all classes/specs. And THAT'S the real problem. As I said above, some classes/specs will benefit, some others either don't have worthy choices of pve gear and/or they need these extra resi points for survivability reasons.

[Derpyhooves]

Apples and oranges.
I spend my time just to pvp, so i must get rewarded more that a player who does both. And yes, pvp must be separate. Its the same reason why a pver will never have to pvp in order to become better pver. Its not about what is better or more worthy. Its 2 separate things.
Besides that you can't understand that even if you spend more time playing wow and invest into pve in order to improve your gear for pvp, that's NOT the case for all classes/specs. And THAT'S the real problem. As I said above, some classes/specs will benefit, some others either don't have worthy choices of pve gear and/or they need these extra resi points for survivability reasons.

Like I said earlier I understand some pvp players want pvp to exist as a game in its own seperate from wow where everything is the way you like it. But it will never happen. WoW is essentially a pve based game and pvp is like a mini game within it. Sure it causes problems with gear balance and even class balance. However everything in the game is freely available for everyone to do, just saying you don't feel like doing something so you think it should be taken away from other players who do feel like doing it seems really unreasonable. Its like saying I want to heal pvp on my resto druid but they are really bad this expansion and shamans are so much better but I don't feel like leveling a shaman so they should remove all shaman from pvp so its fair to my resto druid.