The PvP Power dilemma- hardmode raiding required

[Jibjabb]

The main difference is that the way PVE is designed is to become gradually easier over time (in DS case it became substantionally easier over time). PVP does not since as you gear so does the competition. But anyone saying PVE is "easy" is not a top tier raider and doesnt understand it. Sure you might be able to get into a guild now and do DS like wow what a joke, even if you are absolutely pathetic its easy to carry many players through it. But when fights are new without nerfs and players lack most raid gear the amount of skill and coordination required is immense. Even when its nerfed getting high world rankings is very skillful in many cases, which in a way is an element of PVP in a PVE environment as those ranks are going against all the other players in the world and not the encounters. And this idea that PVE encounters lack variables is also absurd.

On the main topic if the PVE weapons end up SLIGHTLY more powerful in dps terms than the PVP ones I dont find that a big issue since the PVP ones naturally have a lot more survivability. If the PVE weapons are VASTLY more powerful than thats a problem as it forces PVP focsed players to do something non PVP related in order to remain competitive.

Oh and just a quick side note. Throughout BC I was a feral tank and many times the PVP gear was actually BiS for tanking forcing ferals to PVP in order to be as geared as possible. So there has been times where PVE players had to PVP as well. Not saying it happens often but its happened!

[Derpyhooves]

Oh and just a quick side note. Throughout BC I was a feral tank and many times the PVP gear was actually BiS for tanking forcing ferals to PVP in order to be as geared as possible. So there has been times where PVE players had to PVP as well. Not saying it happens often but its happened!

Thats funny because there is a thread around at the moment and apparently the way the PVP gear is itemised now the PVP trinkets are better than the PVE ones.

I'll see if I can find it.

Edit - http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...nket-Imbalance

Food for thought :P

[Evolixe]

Thats funny because there is a thread around at the moment and apparently the way the PVP gear is itemised now the PVP trinkets are better than the PVE ones.

I'll see if I can find it.

Edit - http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...nket-Imbalance

Food for thought :P

LOL!

Lets see how quickly that gets changed.

[Jibjabb]

Thats funny because there is a thread around at the moment and apparently the way the PVP gear is itemised now the PVP trinkets are better than the PVE ones.

I'll see if I can find it.

Edit - http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...nket-Imbalance

Food for thought :P

Well the only skepticism I have to that is are we sure that the stat weights of primary stats are staying the same as it is in Cata? I recall them saying they wanted to nerf them since Cata became all about stacking your primary. So yes right now getting Intellect vastly outweighs the DPS of crit/haste/mastery. But in MOP that may not be the case... it could still be I havent been keeping up with MOP stat theorycrafting to say it is or isnt.

[Deleted]

Ouch, time to panic for pvpers. This will get nerfed 100%.

[rektbrah]

jk feral kills it right out of the pounce.

at a decent rating maybe, but if people complain about frost mages in arena they're not above 1800 so the feral wont kill the grounding

[Evolixe]

at a decent rating maybe, but if people complain about frost mages in arena they're not above 1800 so the feral wont kill the grounding

I would sooner complain about the Fire mages instead rofl!

[Deleted]

Thank you for adding pvp power to pvp weapons Blizzard. This change is huge and will make MoP PvP so much better!

Have a look: Malevolent Gladiator's Greatsword

[Flaks]

And it's super hefty too! Eff yea. BUT WAIT! What's this? A lowering of the item level? It's like they're trying to ensure that the ilvl 516 weapons will be favorable to PvP weapons no matter what.

[Deleted]

10,85% damage & (self) heal increase looks good. Has someone the math on 516pve vs. 490pvp with pvp power? Considering that resilience also scales really well due to the high base value I think pvp weapons should come out even or ahead, but I'd love to look at some math from the theory crafters around here.

[Flaks]

The item level got lowered from 503 to 490. That's a hefty hit to dps from 4700 to 4200. This makes it comparable to a 502 pve weapon if you're adding the pvp power to it. Since it's 10% more damage to pvp targets and there's a difference of >400 dps between weapons which is more than a 10% difference in weapon dps and min/max damage. The 516 weapons are far and away better for PvP. Hell, even the 509 weapons are just plain better.

So much for PvP power solving our problem. Guess we can't just get a buff without getting a nerf too when we ask for some balancing (which leaves the imbalance).

PvP's really looking like it's going to get the shaft again. The tier 1 malevolent weapon is comparing LFR weapons. What the fuck...

[Deleted]

Sad to read that...

[Fugus]

Step 1: DELETE PVP POWER, it is not needed nor desired.
Step 2: Make PvP gear an equal item level as PvE gear and make resilience free with regard to the item budget.
Step 3: Change resilience so it reduces all damage from players by X% while at the same time reduces all damage done to mobs by the same percentage.
Step 4: PROFIT.

There ya go, now PvP gear would be useless in PvE and PvE gear will be subpar for PvP. Your resilience may reduce all damage dealt to you from players by 20% but it also reduces all damage you deal to NPCs by 20% and aside from the resilience, your items both have the same item budget.

Or you could have just done it right first time and kept this in mind when designing the game.
1) If it is too much damage for PvP, then it is too much in PvE and no encounter should require it.
2) If it is too much healing in PvP, then it is too much for PvE and no encounter should require it.
3) If the spell or ability to too strong in PvP, then it is too strong to even have in their spellbook and no player should have it and no encounter should require it.

If they had just turned the game with this in mind, this would all have been a non-issue, but they refused even when all the problems arose.

[Flaks]

I've mentioned that before Fugus and was shouted down because PvE'ers like their huge numbers and other random players like their shiny abilities that break PvP.

The whole ilvl system needs to be looked at majorly not just comparing PvP and PvE but within PvE itself. The epic gearing scales from ilvl 476 to 516. That's 40 ilvl in a single tier. Add to that the fact that the relation between ilvl and item power is exponential and we see why a fresh level 90 in beginner epics can't even fathom competing with someone in normal mode tier 14 epic gear.

Here's how it SHOULD be:

Heroic dungeon epics = LFR epics = random world drop epics. 476
Challenge mode epics = normal mode raid epics = Reputation grind epics = Tier 1 malevolent weapon. 483
Heroic mode epics = tier 2 malevolent weapon. 496
Heroic elite. 502.

The problem once again here is the discrepancy between tier 1 and tier 2 pvp players. This addresses the issues with PvE but not PvP as tier 2 players hovering between 2100-2200 limit other players in that range from getting 2200 as there is that gearing difference.

This makes it so that LFR is a good entry point to normal mode because the gear discrepancy isn't that great. Going into heroic mode raiding though makes a pretty big jump. Heroic elite weapons, while they ARE the best, aren't that much better than the competition is left in the dust.

I'd go further and make it into the Vanilla PvE system to where the second last boss of the latest raid would drop gear equal to the last boss of the previous raid. The bosses before the second to last boss in the newest raid would drop gear equal to the second to last boss in the previous raid. The last boss always drops the best loot but not by a gigantic margin.
(See: BWL gearing compared to MC. Chromaggus dropped gear equal in ilvl to rag. Nefarian dropped loot that was better. The rest of the bwl crew dropped gear that was equal to gear from Majordomo. This made sure that ilvl inflation would never ever be a problem. While the game HAS moved into new realms with three different difficulties, it really doesn't effect the design too much as the tiers can be split into smaller groupings).

[Mayden]

Its looking really good now since they added pvp power to all pvp items, including the weapon and trinkets.

Its just a matter of balancing now. The itemlvl is part of that proces.

Would like to hear if someone knows if pvp power has diminishing returns like resilience.

[Lulbalance]

Its looking really good now since they added pvp power to all pvp items, including the weapon and trinkets.

Its just a matter of balancing now. The itemlvl is part of that proces.

Would like to hear if someone knows if pvp power has diminishing returns like resilience.

not likely.. since that would be contrary to the reasons they gave for introducing it. who knows with bliz.

[Deleted]

PvP Power does not work on percentage based self-heals like Recuperate or Deperate Prayer.

[Jibjabb]

one possible reason for lower ilvl on pvp gear is to stop the gaming that players do to raise their ilvl in order to get into LFR runs.

[Deleted]

But pvp gear will be useful (not top notch) for pve - as per blizzard quotes. They wanted pvpers a chance at raiding without having to grind a whole new gear set, plus resilience is now not on the item budget meaning there are more pve stats on the pvp gear. Artificially lowering the ilvl to avoid abusing LFR queues would be pointless and counter intuitive.

Although I haven't compared directly, I imagine pvp gear is similar in quality to heroics or LFR (or maybe somewhere between) with t2 weapons being between LFR and normal mode I think.

Also great change on self healing not being affected by pvp power, the amount of self healing some pure spa classes got was ridiculous in Cata.

[Sunslayer]

PvP power on weapons would make them SUBSTANTIALLY better than pve weapons at pvp right?

Sadly, they have added PvP Power and still it is not making PvP even close to BiS atm. Some mathletes over at AJ have simmed PvP weps vs PvE and PvP weps are simming at a 7-10% Damage loss when compared to PvE weps. Classes or specs not reliant on Wep damage will have no problem going for PvP weps. However, specs dependent on weapon damage will be gimped using PvP weapons by 7-10% damage (this wasn't calculating the new legendaries available to all classes in MoP).