Ten Reasons PvE players will love GW2

[Valeron]

Vewen,

You need to retire that mmochamp account now. Look at the post count

[Deleted]

I'm sure GW2 is very concerned with "stealing" WoWs market. Especially because it's B2P.

And to say there is "nothing" for WoW players who raid...

Actually, I'm not going to give you reasons on the contrary, I don't want you to play this game.

the elite dynamic events arent exactly... hard

not compared to heroic ds btw XD (and in the eyes of hc raiders, hc ds was pretty easy lol)

[Deleted]

It's far worse than any PR I've ever seen.

On topic, there is nothing in GW2 for WoW players who are accustomed to competitive, progression raiding. It might appeal to WoW's casual playerbase. Or just people who are generally disillusioned with WoW.

You know, you are making it really hard for me to NOT ridicule your post or your person. If all players that are interested in competitive PVE progression would quit WoW, Blizz would not even notice that. You know who keeps Blizzard afloat ? The LFR crowd. And by all means.. that's not competitive PVE :P.

Competitive PVE in WoW died with TBC anyway...

[paralleluniverse]

Eh, I came from a guild that was Top 50 US for a fair chunk of Cataclysm, and I see plenty of things in GW2 that look fun, especially if explorable mode dungeons are as challenging as people claim. There's more to MMO's than just raiding.

Really? You're gonna run what is equivalent to WoW's heroic dungeons (probably somewhat harder) and call that sufficient PvE content to challenge WoW's progression raiding population?

[Dodrin]

Really? You're gonna run what is equivalent to WoW's heroic dungeons (probably somewhat harder) and call that sufficient PvE content to challenge WoW's progression raiding population?

You really shouldn't comment on things you haven't done.

[Valeron]

Really? You're gonna run what is equivalent to WoW's heroic dungeons (probably somewhat harder) and call that sufficient PvE content to challenge WoW's progression raiding population?

So GW2 doesn't cater to 5% of wow's population, so what.

[paralleluniverse]

So GW2 doesn't cater to 5% of wow's population, so what.

So nothing. It's good that someone admits it.

[Valeron]

So nothing. It's good that someone admits it.

Um yeah, so we have known about this ever since they announced GW2, what's your point?

[paralleluniverse]

Who says that explorable mode dungeons have to be equivalent to WoW's heroic dungeons? Just because the number of people in them are the same? That seems to be the crux of most of the arguments.

Sooo, LFR is the same as 25-man heroic?

It's not about the numbers. It about the difficulty.

[Snow White]

Really? You're gonna run what is equivalent to WoW's heroic dungeons (probably somewhat harder) and call that sufficient PvE content to challenge WoW's progression raiding population?

Just because gw2's pve content it's on a smaller scale (5 man groups) it's some how insufficient?

Anyway wow's raiding can hardly be defined as progressive these days, since you can literally skip right to the last raid of the xpac.

[rhinomatic]

So nothing. It's good that someone admits it.

I already said it.

And so what if GW2 doesn't cater to the competitive raider in any other game? Those people are quite happy competitively raiding in their game of choice. Making them your target audience is a foolish endeavor showcased by every game that's come out and tried to out-WoW WoW.

GW2 is targeting people who are interested in GW2. They're making their own game. Some will love it. Some won't. ANet isn't exactly concerned if none of WoW's hardcore raiders pick up GW2, they aren't making a game for them.

[paralleluniverse]

Um yeah, so we have known about this ever since they announced GW2, what's your point?

That is my point: GW2 has nothing designed for WoW's progression raiding playerbase. Although some people still won't admit it, and want to talk up how awesome these GW2 heroic dungeons and dynamic events are, and how competitive PvE players should find it sufficient as a substitute for raiding, or as lasting, challenging and competitive content.

So now that we've gotten to the point, I'm done.

[JayJay09]

If someone has a problem with GW2, then please don't play the game.
What'd be the point in that? You don't have to play the game and if you are happy with WoW, stick with WoW.

People bring up pros of GW2 and those pros are mainly being devasted by ignorance. Many people here are prejudiced which makes threads like these turn into a real painful read. And a pointless one, too.

[Valeron]

That is my point: GW2 has nothing designed for WoW's progression raiding playerbase. Although some people still won't admit it, and want to talk up how awesome these GW2 heroic dungeons and dynamic events are, and how competitive PvE players should find it sufficient as a substitute for raiding.

So now that we've gotten to the point, I'm done.

I have yet to see a GW2 fan say that it is a game designed for hardcore raiders. They might find some other aspect of the game that appeals to them but for raiding, need not apply.

[Durzlla]

First of all, folks in competitive teams play 12k hp burst/control/support elementalists. Because they work and work WELL. Second if you even for a minute think that teammate dying in sPvP is not at least to extent your fault... Let's just say that you're not going to get into any decent teams, and if you ever try and get rejected think back to this thread. This mindset was likely the main or at least among the top three reasons for your being rejected. sPvP is about TEAMplay. You are responsible for your teammates. Supporting them, healing them, resurrecting them, peeling them, helping them kill enemy and so on.


Pic soft of related: http://500motivators.com/motivate/me...-share-defeat/

I run a very "tanky" build so I don't pump out insane damage but due to being a beast master ranger I can just pull out my raven for consistently high damage, granted not as good as a cat but tat not my role... I don't see "tanky" builds as being bad so long as you play more supports like I do, I brin my raven for dmg and blind, moa for heal and daze and hen I swap let's I give vigor to all allies near me. Not to mention I can dodge infront of people to take hits for squishier players, have an aoe regen and cond removal, snares out the ass, poisons, buffs, giant frost field and an aoe heal + another cond removal + aoe revive....

I wouldn't count on bein tanky as bad unless you're Tryin to kill thing while being tanky.... And both my highest stats get converted into power which helps me not fall off into nothingness damage wise...

PS: I was going to quote one of your earlier posts but am on phone and can't edit properly, however I do 100% agree with your views on dying, cookie cutter builds, and the teamwork thing, just wanted to make that clear.

[Odeezee]

However there are two sides to the "no raids" argument. On the first side we have people truly unhappy with the fact that there are no traditional "raids" because it is what they are used to. But the other side is more about the lack of a "gear treadmill" system that dungeons and raiding brings. I'm sure in these forums this has been addressed over and over and over, but the point of the matter is that the incentive many MMO players have to keep playing is to increase their character's power. This will not be possible in GW2, and the players that like progressing in power will have difficulty staying around.

Yes, only a fraction of WoW (as an example) players actually raid. But even the casual players who prefer dungeons are able to progress their character's power. Don't underestimate this. Obviously it is not the incentive of everyone who plays the game to get stronger, but it is a huge incentive nonetheless. I have no doubt GW2 will be fun, and I still have my own preorder in, but how long will that fun last? That will vary person to person, but with a clear lack of progression I don't know how long I'll be able to stick it out. I like getting stronger. I like letting other people know that I'm getting stronger.

there are more ways to progress a character than through a statistical increase in power. GW2 is just offer one different to the WoW model.

"Your character might not get stronger but you'll get more skilled!". I've seen this argument a few times and it's still really silly. I've been playing MMOs for a decade, and most of us have experienced at least one or two. When I picked up GW2, I took a brief look at my tooltips and was on my way. GW2 is NOT different enough in combat to take any time adapting to. If you've ever played an MMO before, you will have no trouble playing GW2. Skill progression is not on the same level as gear progression. Hell, gear progression includes skill progression. Skill will play only a small part in the overall progression experience. It will be difficult to tell a skilled player from a not-so-skilled one in Guild Wars 2. Getting better at the game is not going to be an incentive to play. How will you even know you're getting better?

there is a skill increase in going from a WoW model MMO to GW2 and it's an objective one. easiest way to see if someone is skills is just by how often they get downed and defeated. the biggest reasons for this are that combat is more mobile, positional awareness and exploitation is key to success, the ability to synergize skills with others or on your own, skills can be cast on the move, using the environment to your advantage and having to actively use dodging and other defensive skills at the correct time.

"Because Curtis’ ranch isn’t going to save itself." And if I don't care about Curtis, or what happens to his shithole of a ranch? Without reward, there is little incentive. I think ArenaNet is overestimating the amount of people who will truly care about their story. My time in beta left me unimpressed with the story writing, and I've seen similar opinions echo here in another thread, so I'm not exactly counting on Curtis to be able to talk me into saving his ranch. And if I did decide to help him, and next week his ranch gets taken over again, I won't exactly be in a big rush to save him. "Dynamic events" are an illusion anyway. On beta I leveled two Sylvari of different classes to level 10 or so. There was one event that I did different as my second character, otherwise the leveling experience was identical. ArenaNet's "dynamic events" are just a number of scripted events set to play randomly.

yes, DEs are scripted; they have a set of objectives that have to be met but scale to the size of the actively participating players either up or down. yes, they repeat but that repetition has many different triggers. some are on a timer, some are triggered by players, some are triggered by weather, some are triggered by the time of day, and some are triggered by other events. no the events are NOT random, never have been and never will be.

I am a self-admitted selfish gamer. I play for myself, I play so I can progress, I want people to be able to easily see how much I've progressed. I will play GW2, I will no doubt have fun, but I will eventually quit. There is no end-game, there is no progression, there is just...little incentive to keep playing for a person like me. I respect ArenaNet for trying to do something different, but that something is not for me. Nor is it for many others like me.

no, the more appropriate description is that GW2 does not have WoW's end-game model. whether it will be accepted by the masses or not is NOT a forgone conclusion and stating it as such is very myopic and rather heavy biased.

In conclusion: Guild Wars 2 is going to be a great game but it's not going to be the next "big" MMO. It's just going to be another MMO. And that is fine. We don't need every MMO to be the next dethroner.

/sigh how can we even begin to make that conclusion at this point?

As for PVE, though it may be vain, many raiders do wish to become objectively "better" than the next guy, even if it is simply due to their acquisitions, as that reflects their "skill, hard work, and dedication."

not sure if you realize this but you just described a cosmetic distinction between players as opposed to one based on relative power.

Barring the order content is cleared, or how quickly it can be cleared, what means does one have to demonstrate superior performance in PVE if both elite and "scrub" alike can clear the content? Though one may argue, the point is to have fun, not to compete with the nameless horde you never interact with; how they progress is irrelevant to your enjoyment. True as that may be objectively, there is a player subset that thrives off empowering their character, part of which includes being on the cutting edge of progression and raw power. Nabbing certain skins will only fly for so long. Again, this isn't necessarily a bad thing, but this type of player will be alienated.

from interviews i have seen of the top raiding guilds like Ensidia and Envy, they motivation was mainly the challenge and NOT gear. tbh, gear is a motivator for less skilled players as they would like some way to make up for what they lack in skill and yes GW2 is less forging in that regard, but i believe that it will make the majority to players who stick around better players in the end. this will also make the transition between PvP and PvE much more appealing, hence giving players far more content than they have experienced in other games in the genre.

However, by this same right, the large open-world encounters will likely need to be forgiving, as the intended audience in this case is an impromptu mass of people with little coordination. This was definitely the case in what I witnessed in the beta events, but I suppose that later, more high-level encounters may become less forgiving and more akin to open-world encounters in more "hardcore" MMOs. We'll see, I suppose.

that all depends on which DEs and the goal of the content. if the eDEs are meant to be end-game, GW2 style, then it can be argued that they expect people attempting this content to have "this" level power, skills, traits, utilities, elites, CPCs and can tune the content to be as challenging as they wish.

Difficulty and "epicness" aside, the major point I wished - though possibly failed - to make was the removal of all-encompassing objectively-superior treadmill of gear alongside new content not only removes a driving force for goal-oriented players, but also removes a means to empower one's character over time. The latter is what some portion of the player base derive their enjoyment from as it gives them a "return" and a means to display their investment.

but you only empower a character overtime relative to older content and NOT current content so in-effect there is no increase in relative power. i never understood why players do not see the value in becoming more skillful as a player instead of wanting the game to buff them so they can overcome challenges. player skill is the only thing a player can input into the game yet it is regularly dismissed in respect to relative statistical power. i hope is that one day people will realize that if you want to be challenged then you do not want to have a vertical scaling system, where things get increasingly easier the more current tier gear you acquire, but a horizontal one that constantly keeps you on your toes as you have to earn every kill every time without the helping hand of stats.

This is the unfortunate truth. Many of my arguments are best answered with the simple fact that GW2 will not cater much to the hardcore crowd obsessed with progression and having a constant goal.

the best way to look at GW2 for those who you say are the hardcore crowd obsessed with progression and having a constant goal is that there is progression and constant goals in GW2, they are just different and NOT mandatory. the biggest issue for most people i think will be the freedom that GW2 gives them. they are so used to MMOs dictating what they will do and when that with GW2 saying do whatever you feel, they will feel lost and become frustrated, but that is only if they refuse to play GW2 for itself and instead opt to play it like WoW.

I read the first 5 pages of this thread. I really don't know why you folks respond to these WoW trolls and try to defend GW2 to them. They will play it or they will not. It makes no difference at all and their allegations aren't worth responding to.

i loathe misinformation and the misrepresentation of facts. i don't mind at all if people dislike GW2, just dislike it on its own merits and not those other people impose on it due to bias, misinformation and strawman arguments.

I don't know why it has to be so "en vogue" to bash the WoW community (as a whole).

WoW has the same problems as a lot of other very populated games:

More players = more idiots/douches in total + idiots/douches = often more vocal than the sensible people.
[...]
I've met a lot of really great people in WoW and it's not reasonable to just condemn a whole gaming community as "garbage" just because of some bad examples - that is, if you can even call it "the" community despite it being fractured into different playstyles, guilds, groups of friends etc.

the issue with WoW and games that use it as a model, is the fact that the design systems inherently put players at odds with each other EVEN of the same faction (between factions it makes more sense though it does also remove half of the game's content from opposing factions). this leads to very dickish behavior and tbh, the devs are probably more to blame than the players, with systems like kill stealing, mob tagging, resource node tapping, ninja looting, and a lack of accountability with systems such as LFD, LFR and cross-server everything, there is little incentive to get along with your fellow gamers as you will more than likely get burned for being to trusting or naive.

Ill take that bet, theres that myth again, the GW2 community will be so far above those of other mmos, dont come to our game with your cookie cutter builds and your OP classes we are far above those selfish and horrid notions....

you reply had nothing to do with the person you quoted. he never said we are better stay out if you want cookie cutter, he just said if you want cookie cutters go ahead, but he will just do what he finds most enjoyable. reeks of a lot of insecurity there.

1. No one cares if one guy can dodge it. I'll kill his friend, then 2v1 him. Or miss it, have someone else immobilize him and kill him. It will work regardless. That is why bull's charge frenzy hundred blades warriors are a staple burst damage class you see in almost every decent organised sPvP video from BWE3.
2. Yes, you will. You will either get separate heals for individual healing from geyser, or your regeneration will stack duration from rain. All of them stack.

hahahaha. /sigh

---------- Post added 2012-08-05 at 01:00 PM ----------

Really? You're gonna run what is equivalent to WoW's heroic dungeons (probably somewhat harder) and call that sufficient PvE content to challenge WoW's progression raiding population?

It's not about the numbers. It about the difficulty.

HAHA, wow why do people think that mechanics and designs from WoW will translate on a 1:1 to GW2, yet it uses completely different mechanics and designs? the reason 5 mans in WoW are not hard or give the best rewards is because in WoW raids are the end-game content. if dungeons were on par, difficulty and rewards-wise to raids, then no one would EVER do raids. if you think about it logically, having fewer people to tackle challenging content will ALWAYS be harder than increasing the size of the group. messing up in a dungeon has a larger impact on the overall effectiveness of the group than a raid.

[Karizee]

Because of Jump Puzzles!

[Sylvanie]

the elite dynamic events arent exactly... hard

not compared to heroic ds btw XD (and in the eyes of hc raiders, hc ds was pretty easy lol)

No, but ... does it matter?

My own guild is a bunch of scrubs by the same standards -- we only managed to kill heroic Spine and Madness with the 30% nerf, and even then it still took blood, sweat, toil, and tears.

At the same time, there are maybe 100,000 players better than us, according to what wowprogress says. Which is a lot (the population of a small city), but only about 1% of WoW's playerbase. I'll go out on a limb here and say that if GW2 doesn't appeal to this type of player, it won't really register on ArenaNet's balance sheet other than as a rounding error. And even though we are and will keep raiding, my husband and I still bought GW2. Not as a replacement for WoW, but for when we're not raiding (as we did with Rift, SW:TOR, and other games before). That's because outside of raiding, WoW is not all that great and there are many games that provide a better experience for soloist or duo players who want a break from raiding.

Raiding also has a high burnout rate. Our guild policy is to prevent burnout by taking a break (until nerfs, the next tier, or the next expansion) if we really, really can't get past something (as we did on Sinestra and heroic Ragnaros, and were getting really close to on heroic Spine) rather than losing people to frustration. That works fairly well for us, but I see raiding guilds imploding because of stalled progress or drama all the time. Progression raiders are demanding, but also volatile customers. If you want to support progression raiding as an MMO company, you have to churn out progression content constantly and you may still find that some don't like it (see: Trial of the Crusader, Dragon Soul).

I don't think ArenaNet is worried about not being able to attract hardcore raiders. What I'd be concerned about in their place is if players get frustrated by not getting the amount of handholding they're used to from exclamation-mark-based quest design and just stop playing because they feel they're stuck.

[Deleted]

i dont think the questing is that hard in gw2 i mean ... you just walk about and you level up because what you need to level up is all around you

is like grinding mobs from 55-60 in vanlla wow cuz winterspring/silithus sucked lol

[draykorinee]

you reply had nothing to do with the person you quoted. he never said we are better stay out if you want cookie cutter, he just said if you want cookie cutters go ahead, but he will just do what he finds most enjoyable. reeks of a lot of insecurity there.

Actually he said most people wont care about builds and will only care about the people, my response was in relation to that continuous feeling of moral superiority over other game communities, nothing to do with cookie cutter builds. So nice try and please stop with the HAHA makes you look silly.

Where is the topic going right now anyway im a bit lost with all the quoting.