Thread: add ons in gw2

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  1. #321
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iCandy View Post
    Except you don't "own" the game. Yeah, you paid for it but do yourself a favor and go read the EULA. You have no rights to the game at all.

    Bad analogy.
    I said nothing of that sort.

    I was using "game-client" term as means of playing the game. A copy of it. I own the copy of the game-client. Every user has its own copy of the game-client. And whatever we do to UI in it - is of no concern to artistic integrity.

    ---------- Post added 2012-08-08 at 10:28 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Dodrin View Post
    A better analogy would be someone else who is riding in your car telling you what to do with it. You don't own guild wars two, you bought access to their servers.
    No. There's server side and client side. We are talking about client-side here. You analogy is server-side. Mine - is client-side.

  2. #322
    Quote Originally Posted by ag666 View Post
    I said nothing of that sort.

    I was using "game-client" term as means of playing the game. A copy of it. I own the copy of the game-client. Every user has its own copy of the game-client. And whatever we do to UI in it - is of no concern to artistic integrity.
    Oh good grief, you're not even trying anymore are you? You DON'T OWN ANYTHING!!! You own your monitor, your mouse, your keyboard. You do not own the game, the game client, the server or the right to change the game. If you got the collectors edition, you own the CD, the figurines, the physical sound track. But you don't own the music, or the game that's on the CD.

    Quote Originally Posted by ag666 View Post
    Imagine this: you bought a car, but designer doesn't want you to repaint it or install/remove any extras. What would you say to him and his "artistic integrity"? Fuck you, it's my car now?
    Same for the game copy. Designer can play his game with his UI, fine. But we - the owners of our game-clients - don't have to put up with such nonsense.
    Just...just...sigh

    No..you have no rights to do anything with the game. Go read the EULA.
    Last edited by iCandy; 2012-08-08 at 06:34 PM.

  3. #323
    Quote Originally Posted by ag666 View Post
    I said nothing of that sort.

    I was using "game-client" term as means of playing the game. A copy of it. I own the copy of the game-client. Every user has its own copy of the game-client. And whatever we do to UI in it - is of no concern to artistic integrity.

    ---------- Post added 2012-08-08 at 10:28 PM ----------


    No. There's server side and client side. We are talking about client-side here. You analogy is server-side. Mine - is client-side.
    You're grasping at straws. The only thing your money is paying for is the download of ARENA NET'S client and the creation of 1 account. Access to that account isn't even promised in it's entirety.

    You don't have a "right" to edit Arena Net's client unless they expressly allow for it.

  4. #324
    Me personally addons ruined wow don't get me wrong when i played wow i did use them i admit but in the end you are looking at ur addons more then the game itself and that is something anet dose not want.

    the first time anet lets addons be used in Guild Wars 2 i will never play it. look at some of the changes it did it was cause of addons.i rather the company come up with there on style of doing things and not just a rip off of a addon someone eles made.

    to prove a point look at wow's Raid UI they got now it looks like a bad rip off of X-peral.
    Last edited by Jtbrig7390; 2012-08-08 at 06:37 PM.

  5. #325
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iCandy View Post
    Oh good grief, you're not even trying anymore are you? You DON'T OWN ANYTHING!!! You own your monitor, your mouse, your keyboard. You do not own the game, the game client, the server or the right to change the game. If you got the collectors edition, you own the CD, the figurines, the physical sound track. But you don't own the music, or the game that's on the CD.

    Just...just...sigh

    No..you have no rights to do anything with the game. Go read the EULA.
    Oh shut up already. I never said that I own the CONTENT. I do not own textures, models, text, sounds, music and game-engine. I never said I do. (Though I still can change them - the only thing I can't do - is claim them as my own)
    I own means to play the game. And UI is part of it. For the sake of car analogy.
    Also, FYI, EULA doesn't work. I can do whatever I wish with the client - they can do nothing about it even if EULA states otherwise. They can't even close my account for that if I didn't disrupt the game for others or cheat. Customer laws >>>> EULA.
    But I must remind you we are not talking about hacking the client here. We are talking about add-on support. That is modding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dodrin View Post
    You're grasping at straws.
    You wish.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dodrin View Post
    You don't have a "right" to edit Arena Net's client unless they expressly allow for it.
    Bullshit. Know your rights. Though we are not talkign about editing the client here. Remember?
    Last edited by Elim Garak; 2012-08-08 at 06:46 PM.

  6. #326
    Quote Originally Posted by ag666 View Post
    Oh shut up already. I never said that I own the CONTENT. I do not own textures, models, text, sounds, music and game-engine. I never said I do.
    I own means to play the game. And UI is part of it. For the sake of car analogy.
    Also, FYI, EULA doesn't work. I can do whatever I wish with the client - they can do nothing about it even if EULA states otherwise. They can't even close my account for that if I didn't disrupt the game for others or cheat. Customer laws >>>> EULA.
    But I must remind you we are not talking about hacking the client here. We are talking about add-on support. That is modding.


    You wish.

    Bullshit. Know your rights. Though we are not talkign about editing the client here. Remember?
    You make no sense at all and you're sorely mistaken if you think they can't do anything to you if you go against the EULA.

    What world do you live in?

    You contradict everything you say whenever you get proven wrong or you just say "that's not what I meant, this is what I meant *insert absurd and completely wrong comment*"
    Last edited by iCandy; 2012-08-08 at 06:51 PM.

  7. #327
    Quote Originally Posted by ag666 View Post
    I said nothing of that sort.

    I was using "game-client" term as means of playing the game. A copy of it. I own the copy of the game-client. Every user has its own copy of the game-client. And whatever we do to UI in it - is of no concern to artistic integrity.

    ---------- Post added 2012-08-08 at 10:28 PM ----------


    No. There's server side and client side. We are talking about client-side here. You analogy is server-side. Mine - is client-side.
    Yes there's server side and client side and you're right that you can do whatever you want with the client but if you change anything in it you have to live with the consequences like being banned for breaking the EULA.

  8. #328
    @ag666 Just read the bold if you don't feel up to the task.


    License to use:
    Subject to the terms of this Agreement, NC Interactive grants to you, for your personal use only, a non-exclusive, revocable, nontransferable (except as permitted in Section 4(a)) license to use the Service, and a non-exclusive, revocable, nontransferable (except as permitted in Section 4(a)) license to use the Software in connection with the Service, without charge except for new Campaigns and Additional Features which will be charged on a prepaid basis according to Section 5.

    You may not (a) sublicense, rent, lease, loan or otherwise transfer the Software or the Service (or any part thereof), including without limitation access keys; (b) modify, adapt, reverse engineer or decompile the Software, or otherwise attempt to derive source code from the Software; (c) create any derivative works in respect of the Software or the Service; or (d) otherwise use the Software or the Service except as expressly provided in this Agreement. You should keep your access key in a safe place and not share it with anyone else. The access key can be used only once. Title to the Software, and all rights with respect to the Software and Service not specifically granted under this Agreement, including without limitation all rights of reproduction, modification, distribution, display, disassembly and decompilation and all copyright, patent, trademark, trade secret and other proprietary rights and interests are reserved to NC Interactive.

    Account:

    c) Rights to Use Accounts. By agreeing to the User Agreement you agree that you do not own either the Master Account or Game Account (collectively, the "Account") you use to access the service, the characters created on the Account and that NC Interactive stores on NC Interactive servers, the items stored on these servers, or any other data from which the servers and accounts are comprised.

    You must choose an account name to identify yourself to NC Interactive staff (your "Account ID") on both the Master Account ("PlayNC account") as well as the Game Account. You may not select as your Account ID the name of another person, or a name which violates any third party's trademark right, copyright, or other proprietary right, or which may mislead other players to believe you to be an employee of NC Interactive or its affiliated companies, or which NC Interactive deems in its sole discretion to be vulgar or otherwise offensive. NC Interactive reserves the right, in its sole discretion, to (1) delete or alter any Account ID or (2) terminate any license granted herein, for any reason whatsoever, including, without limitation, any suspected or actual infringement of any trademark or trade name right, copyright, or other proprietary right. You have sole liability for all activities conducted through your Account or under your Account ID.


    _______________

    So, as I stated before. Like the EULA states, you can't modify the game without permission and as you so boldly claimed, yes as a matter of fact they CAN delete your account whenever they feel like it. Because in FACT, you don't own anything.
    Last edited by iCandy; 2012-08-08 at 07:05 PM.

  9. #329
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by ag666 View Post
    They can't even close my account for that if I didn't disrupt the game for others or cheat. Customer laws >>>> EULA.
    They can close ur account anytime they want , with different accusations:P
    For example if u are bitching too much on the forums or fansites , they can accuse u for <<one or more characters were identified using an unauthorized cheat program, also known as a "hack.">> , without u having anything to proove otherwise
    Just a fictional scenario :P
    Last edited by mmocd9c65c8d53; 2012-08-08 at 07:06 PM.

  10. #330
    Quote Originally Posted by ag666 View Post
    Oh shut up already. I never said that I own the CONTENT. I do not own textures, models, text, sounds, music and game-engine. I never said I do. (Though I still can change them - the only thing I can't do - is claim them as my own)
    I own means to play the game. And UI is part of it. For the sake of car analogy.
    Also, FYI, EULA doesn't work. I can do whatever I wish with the client - they can do nothing about it even if EULA states otherwise. They can't even close my account for that if I didn't disrupt the game for others or cheat. Customer laws >>>> EULA.
    But I must remind you we are not talking about hacking the client here. We are talking about add-on support. That is modding.


    You wish.

    Bullshit. Know your rights. Though we are not talkign about editing the client here. Remember?
    Look at it another way. Do you read a book and complain about the font/cover? Do you look at art, for example, Starry Night, and complain it doesn't have enough stars, or the strokes aren't done right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Yeah, Rhandric is right, as usual.

  11. #331
    Quote Originally Posted by iCandy View Post
    License to use:
    Subject to the terms of this Agreement, NC Interactive grants to you, for your personal use only, a non-exclusive, revocable, nontransferable (except as permitted in Section 4(a)) license to use the Service, and a non-exclusive, revocable, nontransferable (except as permitted in Section 4(a)) license to use the Software in connection with the Service, without charge except for new Campaigns and Additional Features which will be charged on a prepaid basis according to Section 5.

    You may not (a) sublicense, rent, lease, loan or otherwise transfer the Software or the Service (or any part thereof), including without limitation access keys; (b) modify, adapt, reverse engineer or decompile the Software, or otherwise attempt to derive source code from the Software; (c) create any derivative works in respect of the Software or the Service; or (d) otherwise use the Software or the Service except as expressly provided in this Agreement. You should keep your access key in a safe place and not share it with anyone else. The access key can be used only once. Title to the Software, and all rights with respect to the Software and Service not specifically granted under this Agreement, including without limitation all rights of reproduction, modification, distribution, display, disassembly and decompilation and all copyright, patent, trademark, trade secret and other proprietary rights and interests are reserved to NC Interactive.

    Account:

    c) Rights to Use Accounts. By agreeing to the User Agreement you agree that you do not own either the Master Account or Game Account (collectively, the "Account") you use to access the service, the characters created on the Account and that NC Interactive stores on NC Interactive servers, the items stored on these servers, or any other data from which the servers and accounts are comprised.

    You must choose an account name to identify yourself to NC Interactive staff (your "Account ID") on both the Master Account ("PlayNC account") as well as the Game Account. You may not select as your Account ID the name of another person, or a name which violates any third party's trademark right, copyright, or other proprietary right, or which may mislead other players to believe you to be an employee of NC Interactive or its affiliated companies, or which NC Interactive deems in its sole discretion to be vulgar or otherwise offensive. NC Interactive reserves the right, in its sole discretion, to (1) delete or alter any Account ID or (2) terminate any license granted herein, for any reason whatsoever, including, without limitation, any suspected or actual infringement of any trademark or trade name right, copyright, or other proprietary right. You have sole liability for all activities conducted through your Account or under your Account ID.


    _______________

    So, as I stated before. Like the EULA states, you can't modify the game without permission and as you so boldly claimed, yes as a matter of fact they CAN delete your account whenever they feel like it. Because in FACT, you don't own anything.
    So now that that's settled, we can go back to discussing whether we think they should allow add-ons.

  12. #332
    Quote Originally Posted by Dodrin View Post
    So now that that's settled, we can go back to discussing whether we think they should allow add-ons.
    rofl. I have to afk for a while. I'll be sure to stop back when I'm done.

  13. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by ag666 View Post
    Also, FYI, EULA doesn't work. I can do whatever I wish with the client - they can do nothing about it even if EULA states otherwise. They can't even close my account for that if I didn't disrupt the game for others or cheat. Customer laws >>>> EULA.
    Actually, that's not true. Well, it is and it isn't. You see, you are technically paying for the client-side version of the game with your purchase. However, the client has to go through server-side checks and, in the EULA, you're agreeing not to modify the client-side data (it's in there, read it). So, if you fail a check because you modify the client-side data in a way the sweep will know, they have the right to ban you because you agreed to it by accepting the EULA.

    From there, though, you can feel free to develop your own "server" but not open it up to the public. If you maintain it as a private server that only you use, you're not breaking any copyright laws... unless you steal the server data from one of their servers somehow.

    That's the thing about EULA's - they're legal binding contracts that you are willingly signing. That trumps everything else because you are stating that you are giving up your consumer rights in certain areas in return for services.

  14. #334
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Dodrin View Post
    So now that that's settled, we can go back to discussing whether we think they should allow add-ons.
    actually its not, at least not in the EU. You own the client, no matter what the EULA says, which incidentally mean sod all in most EU countries.


    But thats not the point of the thread, so I wont press the point.

  15. #335
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iCandy View Post
    @ag666 Just read the bold if you don't feel up to the task.
    Why so condescending? Are you losing it?


    Quote Originally Posted by iCandy View Post
    You may not (a) sublicense, rent, lease, loan or otherwise transfer the Software or the Service (or any part thereof), including without limitation access keys; [U][B](b) modify, adapt, reverse engineer or decompile the Software, or otherwise attempt to derive source code from the Software;
    That doesn't cover add-ons. Also there's such thing called "Fair use". Remember EULA is NOT the LAW.
    Quote Originally Posted by iCandy View Post
    you do not own either the Master Account or Game Account (collectively, the "Account")
    That just means I can not sell it.
    Quote Originally Posted by iCandy View Post
    NC Interactive reserves the right, in its sole discretion, to (1) delete or alter any Account ID or (2) terminate any license granted herein, for any reason whatsoever, including, without limitation, any suspected or actual infringement of any trademark or trade name right, copyright, or other proprietary right. You have sole liability for all activities conducted through your Account or under your Account ID. [/I]
    That's just illegal. If they would close my account on a whim - it would be FRAUD.

    Quote Originally Posted by iCandy View Post
    So, as I stated before. Like the EULA states, you can't modify the game without permission and as you so boldly claimed, yes as a matter of fact they CAN delete your account whenever they feel like it. Because in FACT, you don't own anything.
    EULA is not the LAW. They can't just delete my account, legally. Unless they are closing the service too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Plzbegentle View Post
    They can close ur account anytime they want , with different accusations:P
    For example if u are bitching too much on the forums or fansites , they can accuse u for <<one or more characters were identified using an unauthorized cheat program, also known as a "hack.">> , without u having anything to proove otherwise
    Just a fictional scenario :P
    But I don't have to prove anything. They have. In court. And they can't since I didn't speed hack. Account open again with a compensation for moral and material harm.

    ---------- Post added 2012-08-08 at 11:27 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by rhandric View Post
    Look at it another way. Do you read a book and complain about the font/cover? Do you look at art, for example, Starry Night, and complain it doesn't have enough stars, or the strokes aren't done right?
    I read e-books. I can change everything.
    Quote Originally Posted by vicious796 View Post
    Actually, that's not true. Well, it is and it isn't. You see, you are technically paying for the client-side version of the game with your purchase. However, the client has to go through server-side checks and, in the EULA, you're agreeing not to modify the client-side data (it's in there, read it).
    But we are not talking about modifying the client. We are talking about "I own the client" for the sake of car analogy.

  16. #336
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by ag666 View Post
    But I don't have to prove anything. They have. In court. And they can't since I didn't speed hack. Account open again with a compensation for moral and material harm.
    Their security system <<spoted>> the hack , that specific time . Its already on their <<records>> , so they have proofs :P

  17. #337
    You don't own the client, though. You LICENSE the client. It's a subtle but distinct difference.

    A better car analogy would be getting a company car from your job. You can use it for almost anything you want, but you don't actually own it. Some employers would let you get the car painted if you wanted to, and some wouldn't. ANet is the latter. They don't want you modifying the game they let you use.

    And they do let you use it, have no illusions of anything else. They can ban you whenever they want for whatever reason they want, and it's not fraud because they told you plain as day that they can in the EULA.

  18. #338
    The Insane DrakeWurrum's Avatar
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    @ag666 - the EULA is End User License Agreement. You digitally agreed to those terms, and thus are legally bound by them.

    You should watch this South Park episode. As it's South Park, this should not be necessary, but: NSFW
    I hope you haven't forgotten my role in this little story. I'm the leading man. You know what they say about the leading man? He never dies.

    If you give in to your impulses in this world, the price is that it changes your personality in the real world. The player and character are one and the same.

  19. #339
    The Unstoppable Force Elim Garak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Plzbegentle View Post
    Their security system <<spoted>> the hack , that specific time . Its already on their <<records>> , so they have proofs :P
    That's obviously a fake record, right? I can dispute it - and it will turn out as fake. They have to plant fake evidence on my side to make it work. That is my PC.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhinomatic View Post
    You don't own the client, though. You LICENSE the client. It's a subtle but distinct difference.

    A better car analogy would be getting a company car from your job.
    No, I do not pay for it. Therefore restrictions are sensible.

  20. #340
    couple of points here. for one i use like 100's addons to wow, it wouldn't be the same game without any, no way i would still be playing wow in its default vanilla look all these years, its absolutely abysmal, i applaud those who play without addons, i simply cannot subject myself to such a horrible looking/clunky ui, as soon as i found mods like bartender pre-bc even, i never looked back

    now the main issue i have is, that i have played 7 years with addons, loved them, used them tried nearly every addon under the sun for everything imaginable over the years, and i still have a list of core addons that i simply cannot play wow without. I recently played the beta for mists, last month, prior to addons being enabled. It was...bad...

    Blizzard has the majority of players used to playing with addons, and customizing their ui and gameplay experience, but after 5-6 years, to suddenly have to play without addons, you realize how ugly/boring/bland the game really is, it hasn't changed in 7 years! the same bars, the same map, same character bars, sure they have added a few buttons, a few screens that pop up, but really, its amazing that wow has not changed a single thing (at least visually...its changed significantly under the hood, I'll give it that) in 7 years, that when i went to play the beta...i was so frustrated and felt out of place, it was like starting over again for the first time in vanilla, it was terrible, and i logged out.

    So i think the main problem is, addons let us get used to a certain playstyle/comfort, but when its not there or they break, we panic and cant play the game in vanilla format, its a real challenge, i absolutely hate the bags and bank in wow the most default ui for those are the same terrible bags they were in vanilla, and everyone says they play like that? bagnon is an addon i seriously couldn't play wow without, bartender too, and dbm, alt-o-holic, and many others, it has the game 100x more enjoyable/easier to manage, and to play.

    The end result is for any game is to have fun, some of us have way more "fun" by making the game ours, or at least making many of the shortcomings or design flaws in our games, and some of the addons yes are flat out advantages, but its just the way it is, and it has been since 2006, there's no changing it now, and that's something gw2 has realized i think, is that if you enable addons early/at launch, you pretty much have to commit to them from here on out, because those of us who set up our game, and play for extensive amounts of time, will in reality quit if we have to go back to the same old boring UI that we changed out from in the first place

    also i support no addons for gw2, because i believe addons is what killed wow, truly if anything is a wow killer, it was wow itself from the inside out. Addons have killed the community, (dps meters) have killed the spirit of the game, it has made the game go from daunting, epic, challenging in vanilla, to simple clicks and watch bars, from figuring out fights and wiping 100's of times a week, to watch meters, adjusting to moves, and then killing bosses on day 1.

    I remember killing ragnaros, the addons we had then were very basic, they didn't give much of an advantage, if any, i even remember clearing Blackwing Lair, and feeling how awesome the nefarion fight was, because it was a real challenge, we had to coordinate on ventrillo, call out changes, and work as a team...when DBM started coming out it went from a team effort, to individual effort, if you failed at a part of the fight, when dbm said to move or do this or that, then you failed, but prior to that, we relied on teamwork, and strategy and skill to win those same fights, that's what wow is lacking these days, real skill. We let addons do it all for us.

    Vanilla and TBC will always be the most epic/fun/amazing parts of wow, because they were aucutally a challenge, and took real amounts of time, and there was no easy way out, you either cleared it, or didnt, there was no free handouts, no nerfs, or debuffs, the proud few that cleared the current content, were legendary, and it meant something, i dont think we will ever see that again in wow, those days have long gone...

    ...see you in pandaria!

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