add ons in gw2

[Malthurius]

Tyres don't exist in vehicles in which tyres don't touch the ground directly. Maybe it's time to see if these can make it without tyres as well? Surely, the sore behinds and spine problems of the times of old horse carriages are a small sacrifice for such a magnificent "improvement"?

Or maybe we can understand that massive devolution to the crappy experiences of the past are not the way forward?

Because Addons are a necessity for the game to function like tires are for a car? Am I right? No, it's more like having an Automatic vs a Stick.

Anything needed for the game to function should be supplied by the developers, not addons, Quality of life things can be and should be added by the developers as well if there is demand. If the developers don't want to put up with addons in their game, that's fine, it won't ruin the game in the long term, and would probably end up creating a better game with better in box features in the long run.

[Lucky_]

Because Addons are a necessity for the game to function like tires are for a car? Am I right? No, it's more like having an Automatic vs a Stick.

Tyres are by no means a necessity. It would be quite easy to manufacture larger dics that would have the same size as fully inflated tyres around smaller discs. It would just be a massive devolution of process which would reduce the comfort and safety of driving as well as increase wear and tear on various parts due to increased vibrations. Similar to featuring no add-on API in a modern MMO. A massive jump backwards in terms of quality of life for end user.

You seem to think that before tyres were invented people didn't use wheeled transport. They did, and such transports went quite fast too, for example ones such as those used by Romans in chariot races or those used by wealthy and nobility in pre-industrial world before invention of tyres.

[Malthurius]

A car with no tires, regardless of the size of rims, won't get far. Eventually the rims will break and the car won't be moving anymore. Yeah, tires didn't exist for horse and buggy, but a horse carriage couldn't go much faster than 5 mph and a war chariot would go about 15 mph.

So the simile that you're making is that a GW2 without addon API is comparable to an MMO with addon API the same way a chariot is to a car... get outta town.

Stick shift car vs an Automatic is a much better simile.

Do you want the developers to implement all the QoL features for you? (Automatic)
Or would you rather the that player base create the QoL features for the developers instead? (Stick)

[barackopala]

No there wont be add-ons but I would like to see a personal dps meter atleast.

what for? the game will balance out on cc-survivability instead of just damage meters.

[Lucky_]

A car with no tires, regardless of the size of rims, won't get far. Eventually the rims will break and the car won't be moving anymore. Yeah, tires didn't exist for horse and buggy, but a horse carriage couldn't go much faster than 5 mph and a war chariot would go about 15 mph.

Roman racing chariots went several TIMES faster then war chariots. Without tyres. Long journey horse carriages, such as ones used in Imperial Russia went thousands of kilometers without needing to change wheels.

You really need to get a grasp on history and mechanics before you start arguing about things you're completely clueless about.

Stick shift versus automatic is not an evolution, but variation of drive train. Add-ons was a clear evolution of game design, allowing offload of design feature to fanbase. Tyres over wheels was a clear evolution of the wheel concept.

Your comparison is terrible as it compares variation to evolution. Mine is on the spot as it compares evolution to evolution.

[rhinomatic]

Roman racing chariots went several TIMES faster then war chariots. Without tyres. Long journey horse carriages, such as ones used in Imperial Russia went thousands of kilometers without needing to change wheels.

Tell that to Oregon Trail. Can't get halfway to Colorado without busting a wheel. And then you get dysentery.

[Malthurius]

Roman racing chariots went several TIMES faster then war chariots. Without tyres. Long journey horse carriages, such as ones used in Imperial Russia went thousands of kilometers without needing to change wheels.

You really need to get a grasp on history and mechanics before you start arguing about things you're completely clueless about.

Stick shift versus automatic is not an evolution, but variation of drive train. Add-ons was a clear evolution of game design, allowing offload of design feature to fanbase. Tyres over wheels was a clear evolution of the wheel concept.

Your comparison is terrible as it compares variation to evolution. Mine is on the spot as it compares evolution to evolution.

Are addons really a evolution in design though? Or is it simply a variation of how developers allow their playerbase to interact with their game? If addons are an obvious evolution in design, then why haven't we seen every game to ever appear on the PC platform support addons, and why haven't those games been met with a critical view about that choice? Because it's not a clear evolution, it's a very clear design choice, just like designing a car with manual vs automatic drive.

And I doubt you're the mechanical expert you claim you are if think a racing chariot even stands a chance against a car. No Addon API vs Addon API is very much unlike Racing Chariot vs Car with Tires.

[Fencers]

Are addons really a evolution in design though? Or is it simply a variation of how developers allow their playerbase to interact with their game? If addons are an obvious evolution in design, then why haven't we seen every game to ever appear on the PC platform support addons, and why haven't those games been met with a critical view about that choice? Because it's not a clear evolution, it's a very clear design choice, just like designing a car with manual vs automatic drive.

And I doubt you're the mechanical expert you claim you are if think a racing chariot even stands a chance against a car. No Addon API vs Addon API is very much unlike Racing Chariot vs Car with Tires.

Well, PC gaming has had a sort of DIY history. Going back to like Chris Crawford and such. Many earlier commercial games were programs freely shared and modified by this or that programer/enthusiast.

Natch, several highly popular and indeed expertly designed games are/were built on capability to modify the game in some way. Direct construction set or the more limited addon system we see in modern MMOs. Two towering examples that continued on to major commercial products have been DOTA and Counter-Strike. Psst, those games are kind of a big deal from a design perspective.

Dayz, is another obvious example.

Emergent gameplay, systems and modification is something way outside the budget of a developer to facilitate in total. And it's pretty important to the history of gaming as well. Specifically, PC gaming.

The legendary Chris Crawford.



Depending on POV one has for the industry as a whole, one can say that unified APIs, SDKs and construction sets are a direct evolution of the days when users printed out code via BBS/computer magazines for games.

I remember those. I read them to my dad and he typed them into the computer.

[Lucky_]

Tell that to Oregon Trail. Can't get halfway to Colorado without busting a wheel. And then you get dysentery.

There is a sliiiiight difference between a formula one car and a heavy duty mining transporter. Like the road quality...

---------- Post added 2012-08-06 at 02:24 AM ----------

Are addons really a evolution in design though?

Yes. An EXCEPTIONALLY clear cut one. It shifts a significant point of difficulty, designing features that audience would like from developers who have to essentially make educated guesses to people who are the actual target of the product - the audience themselves.

It's an evolution in the very same regard as modern mass media evolving from pure broadcast to actually utilizing normal citizenry, the target audience as the source of its material through things like social media.

[Malthurius]

Well, PC gaming has had a sort of DIY history. Going back to like Chris Crawford and such. Many earlier commercial games were programs freely shared and modified by this or that programer/enthusiast.

Natch, several highly popular and indeed expertly designed games are/were built on capability to modify the game in some way. Direct construction set or the more limited addon system we see in modern MMOs. Two towering examples that continued on to major commercial products have been DOTA and Counter-Strike. Psst, those games are kind of a big deal from a design perspective.

Dayz, is another obvious example.

Emergent gameplay, systems and modification is something way outside the budget of a developer to facilitate in total. And it's pretty important to the history of gaming as well. Specifically, PC gaming.

The legendary Chris Crawford.

Depending on POV one has for the industry as a whole, one can say that unified APIs, SDKs and construction sets are a direct evolution of the days when users printed out code via BBS/computer magazines for games.

I remember those. I read them to my dad and he typed them into the computer.

I don't disagree that the modding and addon community haven't evolved the game industry and how games are made, but addons in of themselves aren't an evolutionary feature to be placed into games. They don't inherently make a game better, only the player that takes advantage of the API really improves the game any, and that improvement is subjective.

You can design a tighter experience if you know what every player has access to, instead of preempting popular addons when designing. That is an active decision by the developer, not an obvious feature birthed from evolution in gaming that's being left out because of apathy.

[Fencers]

I don't disagree that the modding and addon community haven't evolved the game industry and how games are made, but addons in of themselves aren't an evolutionary feature to be placed into games. They don't inherently make a game better, only the player that takes advantage of the API really improves the game any, and that improvement is subjective.

Why aren't addons an evolutionary tool? I don't understand. They are limited in ability than say a full SDK, but I can't see how that as any less a means of innovation.

There are some aspects of gaming that didn't really emerge at all until users created them.

The only subjective thing about addons is whether you personally like to have a button that randomizes the mount you ride. The capacity to open a game to ideas outside of the budget, time and creativity constraints is an evolutionary tool. It has proven so, factually.

As I said earlier in the tread, few developers are in opposition to addons.

You can design a tighter experience if you know what every player has access to, instead of preempting popular addons when designing. That is an active decision by the developer, not an obvious feature birthed from evolution in gaming that's being left out because of apathy.

Yes, you can create a tighter experience. The obvious downside is you have a more limited experience.

How much manpower and money do you think it would have taken Blizzard to develop and implement something like, Outfitter originally? Do you actually think that is non-trivial development?

You do understand how games are developed and what a studio has to commit to live support, yes? Hierarchical management and so on.

But there was an addon called Outfitter. And it through design or default opened an idea [desired or not] that is now easily injecting into all manner of games. There was a point when that didn't exist, yo!

[Malthurius]

I'm not arguing their influence, I'm only arguing their importance to the game's overall intended design.

Where Lucky_ compares it to a Car vs a Racing Chariot; It's an exaggeration of the truth. Addons won't make or break the game, the most addons can do to a game like GW2 is add convenience that would otherwise require implementation by the developers.

I'm not wholly against addons being implemented into the game; but It's not a make or break feature.

[Lucky_]

I'm not arguing their influence, I'm only arguing their importance to the game's overall intended design.

Where Lucky_ compares it to a Car vs a Racing Chariot; It's an exaggeration of the truth. Addons won't make or break the game, the most addons can do to a game like GW2 is add convenience that would otherwise require implementation by the developers.

I'm not wholly against addons being implemented into the game; but It's not a make or break feature.

Having tyres on top of disks or not will not break a car either. Your denials are getting weaker .

[Malthurius]

Having tyres on top of disks or not will not break a car either. Your denials are getting weaker .

Perhaps I simply overracted to a simile, heh... well, sorry.

[Dodrin]

The thing is, it would be counter-productive to the market GW2 is trying to hit if they let their game be heavily modded; ala WC3 or ES games. With an mmo you have your target audience and you build and balance your game around it. Heavy (read: game changing) modding doesn't have a place in mainstream MMOs.

Now as for QoL addons...That's hit and miss. Sure, one on side the developer should retain full control of what their game looks like to consumers, but on the other hand, changing action bars isn't game breaking. It's really when you get into streaming meters and DBM type mods that the game play deteriorates.

[Fencers]

I'm not arguing their influence, I'm only arguing their importance to the game's overall intended design.

I am aware, and I don't disagree with you.

Just public development is a more interesting subject to talk about. I enjoy the discourse.

I'm not wholly against addons being implemented into the game; but It's not a make or break feature.

In terms of GW2, they would likely break the design of the game. Things like skill telegraphs are principle to gameplay.

Kind of inarguable actually. That's the whole dang point.

[Lucky_]

The thing is, it would be counter-productive to the market GW2 is trying to hit if they let their game be heavily modded; ala WC3 or ES games. With an mmo you have your target audience and you build and balance your game around it. Heavy (read: game changing) modding doesn't have a place in mainstream MMOs.

Now as for QoL addons...That's hit and miss. Sure, one on side the developer should retain full control of what their game looks like to consumers, but on the other hand, changing action bars isn't game breaking. It's really when you get into streaming meters and DBM type mods that the game play deteriorates.

This sounds like someone in denial of reality. You don't get any more mainstream then WoW. And you yourself claim that DBM is "game changing". Therefore we can conclude from your own statement that by your definition "game changing" modding not only "has a place" in mainstream MMOs, but "dominates" them.

[Fencers]

Fairly certain World of Warcraft is not only the most widely played western MMO, but the broadest in design and audience ever made in an AAA game.

Not following the logic of "addons have no place in mainstream MMOs". The statement is factually incorrect, they do. Like right now, the biggest western MMO of all time has more addons than some games have players.

[Malthurius]

I am aware, and I don't disagree with you.

Just public development is a more interesting subject to talk about. I enjoy the discourse.

In terms of GW2, they would likely break the design of the game. Things like skill telegraphs are principle to gameplay.

Kind of inarguable actually. That's the whole dang point.

Ugh... I don't. I'm not a big fan of debate (weird to be on a forum eh?), I'm not an argumentative person by nature, and I don't go off on tangents, I was mainly trying to argue a single point that you appear to agree with me on, lol.

Convenience addons wouldn't break the game, addons along the lines of DBM and certain UI elements probably would, yeah. The question I think that would need to be asked of addons for GW2 is what's worse for time/money/development: Managing the addons of the player base and breaking those that conflict with design choices, or designing and implementing wanted convenience themselves?

[Fencers]

Ugh... I don't. I'm not a big fan of debate (weird to be on a forum eh?), I'm not an argumentative person by nature, and I don't go off on tangents, I was mainly trying to argue a single point that you appear to agree with me on, lol.

LOL sorry! I'm not really an addon person actually. Anything that is a headache = whatever.

Sorry, if it seemed hostile... I just hit the ground running on topics that pique my curiosity/interest.

Convenience addons wouldn't break the game, addons along the lines of DBM and certain UI elements probably would, yeah. The question I think that would need to be asked of addons for GW2 is what's worse for time/money/development: Managing the addons of the player base and breaking those that conflict with design choices, or designing and implementing wanted convenience themselves?

I don't really think UI stuff are in the same boat as addons which bring secondary systems into the game-- outfitter, dps meters, screen prompts and the like.

As for the management of addons, that is not too expensive actually. Much cheaper than having to develop secondary systems in-house which require 2-3 departments at the least. Art assets [$$$$$$], QA, design, programing, etc.

Many companies only have a handful of staff dedicated as such. The company I worked for had about 2-3 people overseeing the addon interface. Our game's addons are supported by Curse, btw. So there is some pretty heavy usage.